Did England accomodate David Beckham?

[RumbleFox]

Come on Beckham was great.  And what a lovely little chppy.  That smile and his littlle voice.  I always wanted to hate him because he was good looking and probably had a c0ck three times as big as mine but he was just so cute.  In a Peter Andre type way.

 

Seriously, he won us some games on his own at his peak and I would say he was better than Lampard.

 

As an Englishman living in Scotland I think this thread sums up why they all hate the Enlish team up here.  Firstly, we enjoy slating our own players in a way that doesn't seem to happen up here and, secondly, we seem to think we are better than we are.  Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes are all great players and I love Gerrard but I don't think they would have been much better than 5 or 6 other teams in the world at the time.  It is easy to find a scapeoat and blame Beckham for being "too famous" but the problem is clearly a lack of talent in depth a lack pf training and a mentality that England have some kind of divine right to do well and that "on our day we can beat anyone cos we invented the game and we've got a big nasty cvnt in defence".  Unfortunately, we are just not a very good team at the moment and haven;t been for a long time.

 

I love you Beckham.  Can we compare willies and maybe make them touch a little?

 

Rumble

[Dan]

Yep!

 

I didn't to be fair until the other week, watched it on an ESPN classic re run and couldnt believe what I was seeing, Scholed shifted out left and Trevor Sinclair, Kieron Dyer and Beckham trying to create our chances.

 

I never really followed England from a tactical point of view when I was that age, but playing Scholes on the left is an utterly sensational move. What a bellend.

[Uncle Albert]

Well I'd wager Gerrard wouldn't have scored very many England goals at all playing the defensive midfield role in your magnificent formation. 

 

Well obviously no he wouldn't but I can wager that Paul Scholes would have scored more and created more.

 

 

No he's not he's not a holding midfield player or anything like one. You need to be able to do a bit more than pass. There were questions around their defensive abilitys when playing the more solid 4-4-2 formation when you let your wingers of the hook defensively and play three players like Scholes Lampard Gerrard it's a FIFA formation. When you've got a proper defending holding midfielder like a Khderia, De Jong, Senna or a Busquets then it's something a sane football manager might consider in real life. Anyway as I've told you I think you'll find they've all switcher their formations on numerous occasions since 2002 and Spain won 2008 and 2010 and played 4-4-2 in points in both tournaments. 

 

He got injured Actually your right because he occasionally gets injured your right should never of played international football, ridiculous lofty. Dress it up anyway you want he turned up more often or not when we needed him unlike those two. I've looked how many goals they've scored seems he's made more than either have scored.....so not seeing your point.

 

Spain did not win the 2010 World Cup Final in a 4-4-2, they played Busquets, Alonso and Xavi as three midfielders, Iniesta and Pedro as the wide attackers in a front three with Villa through the middle. The same in 2008 Euro Final, Senna, Fabregas and Xavi were the midfield three, Iniesta was on the right of a front three, Torres in the middle and Silva on the left. Dress that up anyway you want, 4-3-3 when attacking and 4-5-1 when you're defending BUT its certainly not in anyway shape or form a 4-4-2 yet again FoxesTalk someone making up rubbish to prove their point.

[Manwell Pablo]

I never really followed England from a tactical point of view when I was that age, but playing Scholes on the left is an utterly sensational move. What a bellend.

 

It was the only way you could get Scholes Gerrard Lampard Beckham into the same side. We completely lacked a proper left winger of international class (and did so for years) and so that was the solution, he couldn't really of slotted behind the striker as we had Rooney and Owen who at the time were both much bigger threats in that position than him. I still believe had Rooney remained on the pitch we'd of beaten Portugal in the quarters and probably won the tournament.

 

Our problem was we've never seemed to grasp the idea of rotation and flexible tactics and instead wacked the best XI technical players out every single game. Very Sven thing to do it was very similar to how he managed here but at the time that many idiots followed England and had a very simplistic view. that being play the good players that score all the goals in the same team even if it means playing players like Paul Scholes left wing, the idea of rotating a player like Lampard Gerrard or Scholes out of a side was completely lost on both manager and most fans at the time.

Well obviously no he wouldn't but I can wager that Paul Scholes would have scored more and created more.

 

 

 

Spain did not win the 2010 World Cup Final in a 4-4-2, they played Busquets, Alonso and Xavi as three midfielders, Iniesta and Pedro as the wide attackers in a front three with Villa through the middle. The same in 2008 Euro Final, Senna, Fabregas and Xavi were the midfield three, Iniesta was on the right of a front three, Torres in the middle and Silva on the left. Dress that up anyway you want, 4-3-3 when attacking and 4-5-1 when you're defending BUT its certainly not in anyway shape or form a 4-4-2 yet again FoxesTalk someone making up rubbish to prove their point.

 

 

Lofty learn to read and then come back.

[Uncle Albert]

Lofty learn to read and then come back.

 

Yeah they played 1 game with 4-4-2, that is it.

 

They won the tournaments playing 4-3-3/4-5-1, simple as that Manny, teams moved on from 4-4-2 and left in England in the old age and guess what we're still suffering now from it.

[Manwell Pablo]

Yeah they played 1 game with 4-4-2, that is it.

 

They won the tournaments playing 4-3-3/4-5-1, simple as that Manny, teams moved on from 4-4-2 and left in England in the old age and guess what we're still suffering now from it.

 

Yeah in 2010 when David Beckham was all but done anyway

 

in 2008 it was their preferred formation, Villa and Torres, only changing in the final because Villa was out

 

in 2006 Totti played just behind Toni in what was essentially a 4-4-2.

 

in 2004 Greece played 4-4-2

 

For a dead formation it seems it was doing alright for the rest of Europe up until Beckham was basically retired. 

[David Villa]

2

Yeah in 2010 when David Beckham was all but done anyway

 

in 2008 it was their preferred formation, Villa and Torres, only changing in the final because Villa was out

 

in 2006 Totti played just behind Toni in what was essentially a 4-4-2.

 

in 2004 Greece played 4-4-2

 

For a dead formation it seems it was doing alright for the rest of Europe up until Beckham was basically retired. 

 

Had to reply from this account as some people got their knickers in a twist over GTA.

 

So Totti playing behind Toni is again effectively a 4-5-1, not 4-4-2. Spain won Euro 2008 and World Cup 2010 Finals not playing 4-4-2 as well, Greece are the only nation since 2002 to win an International tournament playing 4-4-2. Italy in '06 was 4-5-1, Spain '08 4-3-3, Spain '10 4-3-3 and Spain '12 4-3-3..

 

So it's not been 4-4-2 since Greece's freak win 9 years ago, what I've been trying to say all along is, England haven't moved with the times of International football, we were left behind, that's obviously down to management and lack of players. I just think we missed out on one of the greatest talents this Country has ever produced in Paul Scholes because of David Beckham, because he wasn't going to be dropped by Erikkson. Look how Euro 2008 might have gone for us if we had a Paul Scholes throughout that qualifying campaign and then tournament, was a real good footballing tournament and we weren't there.

 

I've never slated Beckham, I never would, I have said I don't think he was world class because he clearly wasn't, I respect what he did for England but I honestly think his image and his stature has held England back immensely.

[Dan]

It was the only way you could get Scholes Gerrard Lampard Beckham into the same side. We completely lacked a proper left winger of international class (and did so for years) and so that was the solution, he couldn't really of slotted behind the striker as we had Rooney and Owen who at the time were both much bigger threats in that position than him. I still believe had Rooney remained on the pitch we'd of beaten Portugal in the quarters and probably won the tournament.

 

Our problem was we've never seemed to grasp the idea of rotation and flexible tactics and instead wacked the best XI technical players out every single game. Very Sven thing to do it was very similar to how he managed here but at the time that many idiots followed England and had a very simplistic view. that being play the good players that score all the goals in the same team even if it means playing players like Paul Scholes left wing, the idea of rotating a player like Lampard Gerrard or Scholes out of a side was completely lost on both manager and most fans at the time.

 

 

Lofty learn to read and then come back.

 

Well if you can't put all four in the same side in their positions - then don't do it. Look at the amount of players Spain & Germany can't use because of their depth. Strength in depth should be an asset, rather than tried to make into something it isn't.

[David Villa]

Euro 2004 Final - Greece (4-4-2) v Portugal (4-2-3-1)

 

World Cup 2006 Final - Italy (4-2-3-1) v France (4-2-3-1)

 

Euro 2008 Final - Spain (4-1-4-1) v Germany (4-2-3-1)

 

World Cup 2010 Final - Spain (4-3-3) v Holland (4-2-3-1)

 

Euro 2012 Final - Spain (4-3-3) v Italy (4-1-3-2) I'll let that be a 4-4-2, but look at the result.

[Guest MattP]

Yeah in 2010 when David Beckham was all but done anyway

 

in 2008 it was their preferred formation, Villa and Torres, only changing in the final because Villa was out

 

in 2006 Totti played just behind Toni in what was essentially a 4-4-2.

 

in 2004 Greece played 4-4-2

 

For a dead formation it seems it was doing alright for the rest of Europe up until Beckham was basically retired. 

 

Sorry but you can't be serious in saying Totti was up front in a 4-4-2, he was far more towards the midfield than up top, 4-5-1 was a more accurate description.

 

Well if you can't put all four in the same side in their positions - then don't do it. Look at the amount of players Spain & Germany can't use because of their depth. Strength in depth should be an asset, rather than tried to make into something it isn't.

 

Yep, and that's where we fcuked up. A central trio of Lampard, Scholes and Gerrard could have been fantastic. Owen up front with Rooney and Cole off them, what a great shame we never tried that. Short, quick, accurate passing, triangles around the box. Who knows what could have been achieved?

 

But unfortunately the celebrity had to be accomodated, they would have played him at right back if they had to.

[Kitchandro]

When? He went in 2006, we won three games at 2006 without David Beckham we'd of won none of them.

 

So between 2003 and 2006 then.

 

Without Beckham we could have accomodated a player in form and it might have led to better team performances.

[Hugo Sanchez]

Beckham wasn't world class, made a awful lot of money being a decent player with a unbelievable set piece. Him and Owen were useless by 2002 but they were household names who couldn't be dropped. Paul Scholes is a million times a better player then Beckham. Our golden generation was mismanaged terribly by Sven. Lampard, Gerrard and Scholes would had walk into any international team back in say 2004.

[Captain...]

There is some revisionist history going on here, the problem was then, and still is now, Gerrard and Lampard can't play well together as they are too similar, I would put scholes in the same bracket, that 433 would have been a disaster as we would have had no steel in midfield and no width, as it was we still had no steel in midfield.

We didn't accommodate Beckham, there was nobody better on the right at the time, we accommodated Gerrard Lampard and Scholes. Playing 433 would have done that even worse. We had 3 of the best attacking centre mids in the world, but they were at their best with a holding player, we could accommodate 1 of them in a 442, maybe 2 of them in a 433, 451, 541, 532. But we didn't try that, apart from the ridiculous quarter back formation, which was accommodating Beckham.

We can't compare Scholes, Lampard and Gerrard to the tiki taka Spanish midfield as they play very differently as individuals and as a team. Beckham gets unfair criticism because of his image, he is one of if not the best player England have produced in my lifetime, he was world class, there was some nonsense posted earlier about him not being a good tackler, that is bollocks, he was a better tackles than Scholes or Lampard, he jumped out of the one tackle when coming back from injury. There was no better right sided midfielder at the time, so to say we accommodated him was nonsense.

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

Never bought into this golden generation tag we had between 02-06 shite. 

 

Our squad at Euro 96 was the strongest since '66 and hasn't been touched since. 

[Guest MattP]

he is one of if not the best player England have produced in my lifetime

Had you down as older than 8.

[Guest ttfn]

I mean, I've said this already, but Beckham was a fvcking great player

I almost can't believe what I'm reading.

[Manwell Pablo]

Sorry but you can't be serious in saying Totti was up front in a 4-4-2, he was far more towards the midfield than up top, 4-5-1 was a more accurate description.

 

 

Yep, and that's where we fcuked up. A central trio of Lampard, Scholes and Gerrard could have been fantastic. Owen up front with Rooney and Cole off them, what a great shame we never tried that. Short, quick, accurate passing, triangles around the box. Who knows what could have been achieved?

 

But unfortunately the celebrity had to be accomodated, they would have played him at right back if they had to

 

He was in between wasn't he, behind the striker, I'd call that a 4-4-2/4-5-1 myself they played Gilardino and Toni at times with Totti supporting in 4-4-2 anyway. 

 

Had to reply from this account as some people got their knickers in a twist over GTA.

 

So Totti playing behind Toni is again effectively a 4-5-1, not 4-4-2. Spain won Euro 2008 and World Cup 2010 Finals not playing 4-4-2 as well, Greece are the only nation since 2002 to win an International tournament playing 4-4-2. Italy in '06 was 4-5-1, Spain '08 4-3-3, Spain '10 4-3-3 and Spain '12 4-3-3..

 

So it's not been 4-4-2 since Greece's freak win 9 years ago, what I've been trying to say all along is, England haven't moved with the times of International football, we were left behind, that's obviously down to management and lack of players. I just think we missed out on one of the greatest talents this Country has ever produced in Paul Scholes because of David Beckham, because he wasn't going to be dropped by Erikkson. Look how Euro 2008 might have gone for us if we had a Paul Scholes throughout that qualifying campaign and then tournament, was a real good footballing tournament and we weren't there.

 

I've never slated Beckham, I never would, I have said I don't think he was world class because he clearly wasn't, I respect what he did for England but I honestly think his image and his stature has held England back immensely.

 

To repeat myself, it depends on you're view, he's in between the striker and the midfield, I'd view it as a 4-5-1/4-4-2. 2008 Spain almost exclusively played 4-4-2 throughout the tournament your point that they changed for the final is irrelevant they only did so as Villa was out. 4-4-2 is a formation you can quite easily use and get success out of to this day. I will agree with you we could possibly of given the formation you suggest, amongst others, a go for me we've been tactically rigid for far to long. The English mind set that there is one best formation and one best eleven (which your current argument is a prime example of) and every England managers job is to find this holy grail none seem to grasp that in international football the ability to be diverse with your tactics is needed and you need more than 11 men who can do a job for you.

 

I agree Scholes should have been around a lot longer more should of been done to keep him and I think there is little doubt we'd of been a better side with him available for 2008s qualifying, I think we'd of done better with Beckham available for all the qualifying games as well but there we are. I don't think it is fair or right to lay the blame for Scholes retiring at David Beckhams door, for one Scholes shouldn't be so petulant as to retire from international football because he's being played out of position, for two I'm not even sure that was his reason he retired anyway, for three there was more than enough scope to involve both players in a number of different systems and David Beckham wasn't the one picking the team and playing him left wing.

 

Well I think he was world class, I don't see how you can't class a man with one of the greatest right foots I've ever seen as not world class he had a weapon that no other player in world football had at the time. I know he was far from a complete player but when you've got an asset like that I think your allowed a couple of weakness's

 

As if you got banned for ruining GTA (Although you are a C*nt for that  )

[Manwell Pablo]

I mean, I've said this already, but Beckham was a fvcking great player

I almost can't believe what I'm reading.

 

David Beckham hating makes you look cool and knowledgeable

 

And Kitch, if you think he was out of form from 2003 to 2006 you might want to review the amount of goal created and scored by the man in the build up to both big tournaments in that time period, if you can try and watch a few games and watch how performs as well. He rarely played badly for England I don't know where people are getting this poor for his country crap from he was one of the few that actually turned up more often than not!