Thracian Posted 5 April 2007 Author Posted 5 April 2007 You're pretty much there or thereabouts mate.I appreciate you don't want to read back but the answer to where the police were standing etc is due to this. In a potentially heated situation between 2 sides, do you attempt to beat back 70,000 fans... or 2,000 ish? I think it's a plain and simple numbers/practicality thing. But it's miles away from the issue of what can possibly justify policemen dropping people to the floor, quelling any potential threat and then wilfully beating them senseless with their batons. Good job it wasn't 70.000 to 10 - bloody hell they'd have had a field day. There'd have only been a pile of pulp left.
breadandcheese Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 You're pretty much there or thereabouts mate.I appreciate you don't want to read back but the answer to where the police were standing etc is due to this. In a potentially heated situation between 2 sides, do you attempt to beat back 70,000 fans... or 2,000 ish? I think it's a plain and simple numbers/practicality thing. You are right, but the question that comes to my mind is why have the Italian authorities not stamped down on hooliganism. Out of those 70,000, maybe 3,000 are prepared to cause trouble. Out of those 3,000, there are probably 100-300 known trouble makers and ring leaders. They should be banned from attending the stadium in the same way they would be over here. Take away the main ring leaders and the probability of trouble starts to recede and a more even-handed approach can result. Instead, the result is, the 100-300 ring leaders see their "glorious win" i.e. police wade in and attack the united fans. The Roma fans on the other hand are left relatively untouched. They watch and laugh, becoming more emboldened and looking forward to their increased "reputation". The probability of more trouble from Roma fans only increases.
john_lcfc Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 the fact 0 arrests were made inside the stadium showed the police instead of dealing with troublemakers like we do in this country by singling them out and ejecting them, were more than happy to give their own "baton" treatment and to be honest its obvious the police wanted a fight.
C-man Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 For one they were following orders. They will have been told to batter anyone who looks like causing trouble on the away side.And I've already told you they deal with the away fans and remove them from the situaton, whether they are playing Milan or CSKA Moscow, if there's trouble race doesn't come into it it's safer to tackle the side with fewer numbers. Trying to beat back at least 5,000 Roma ultras in their own stadium is not brave it is stupid. The Italians are currently taking a zero tolernace attitude towards football violence and the Man u fans we're stupid enough to get caught up in it. I suppose it would of been best for all involved had the police just let them kick lumps into each other eh? Hold on, surely the best way of eradicating football violence is to get rid of the problem that is there week in, week out? Pummelling several Man Utd fans who are only in the country for a matter of days will not do anything to quell football violence in Italy. If Italy wants to get rid of violence, it has to get rid of the Ultras. Safeguarding the Utd fans from the Ultra's would have been a far better plan than attacking them, and therefore inciting even more charging from both sets of fans. Idiotic Police beat idiotic fans on the night. Don't forget to add "just a month or so after a policeman was killed in football violence" Proves my point about needing rid of the Ultras. I don't see any Man Utd fans killing policemen.
Hullfox Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 The 'different culture, different rules' arguement is patently silly. You don't go to South Africa in the apartheid era, treat blacks like scum, and come back to Britain with a clear conscience because it's allowed over there. But similarly would you travel to parts Africa today and say that the police are wrong to use sticks against people or would you accept that it is their country and they should police it as they deem right? If you didn't necessarily agree with their methods are you still allowed your clear conscience?
Thracian Posted 5 April 2007 Author Posted 5 April 2007 You are right, but the question that comes to my mind is why have the Italian authorities not stamped down on hooliganism. Out of those 70,000, maybe 3,000 are prepared to cause trouble. Out of those 3,000, there are probably 100-300 known trouble makers and ring leaders. They should be banned from attending the stadium in the same way they would be over here. Take away the main ring leaders and the probability of trouble starts to recede and a more even-handed approach can result.Instead, the result is, the 100-300 ring leaders see their "glorious win" i.e. police wade in and attack the united fans. The Roma fans on the other hand are left relatively untouched. They watch and laugh, becoming more emboldened and looking forward to their increased "reputation". The probability of more trouble from Roma fans only increases. Italian police don't do that. I remember being in Milan when the Red Brigades were running riot. There was a big robbery at a restaurant just outside of town and the police sounded the alarm miles away so the robbers, with their machine guns, had time to scoot. They're not so keen when there's the likelihood of retaliation.
Hullfox Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 the fact 0 arrests were made inside the stadium showed the police instead of dealing with troublemakers like we do in this country by singling them out and ejecting them, were more than happy to give their own "baton" treatment and to be honest its obvious the police wanted a fight. The fact that no arrests were made in Rome just go to prove how naughty Jamie must have been to be ejected from the Walkers.
Manwell Pablo Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 the fact 0 arrests were made inside the stadium showed the police instead of dealing with troublemakers like we do in this country by singling them out and ejecting them, were more than happy to give their own "baton" treatment and to be honest its obvious the police wanted a fight. Again, it's very hard to arrest Italian supporters as when your restraining them some other thug smashes you over the head with a bottle, I say again they are used to dealing with Italian fans and that is how they are trained and so that is how they reacted. They haven't the first idea of how the English game works. Italian supporters fight the police and they are outnumbered. In the end what they did worked, they didn't charge the barrier again did they?
The People's Hero Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 You are right, but the question that comes to my mind is why have the Italian authorities not stamped down on hooliganism. Out of those 70,000, maybe 3,000 are prepared to cause trouble. Out of those 3,000, there are probably 100-300 known trouble makers and ring leaders. They should be banned from attending the stadium in the same way they would be over here. Take away the main ring leaders and the probability of trouble starts to recede and a more even-handed approach can result.Instead, the result is, the 100-300 ring leaders see their "glorious win" i.e. police wade in and attack the united fans. The Roma fans on the other hand are left relatively untouched. They watch and laugh, becoming more emboldened and looking forward to their increased "reputation". The probability of more trouble from Roma fans only increases. I agree with every word. That's for the Italian Authorities to sort out though. In the meantime, any football fans travelling anywhere in Italy but specifically to Rome should be on their best behaviour. Anything else is stupid.
Flynny Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 But similarly would you travel to parts Africa today and say that the police are wrong to use sticks against people or would you accept that it is their country and they should police it as they deem right? It's not the USE of batons that's the problem. It's how they were used. I've no problem whatsoever with them battering a load of thuggish twats to the ground. But that's not what they did. They beat back Man Utd fans indiscriminate of how they were behaving because of a minority of idiots. It's fine to argue that people who provoked the situation, inadvertantly or otherwise, deserved what they got. It's not fine to argue that people who were there to watch the football and set not a foot wrong and got pummelled anyway deserved it. They didn't.
The People's Hero Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 I'd just like to say, I don't condone the beating of innocent fans. If that was KNOWINGLY done, then as previously said, it is VERY wrong.
Manwell Pablo Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 Hold on, surely the best way of eradicating football violence is to get rid of the problem that is there week in, week out? Pummelling several Man Utd fans who are only in the country for a matter of days will not do anything to quell football violence in Italy. If Italy wants to get rid of violence, it has to get rid of the Ultras. Safeguarding the Utd fans from the Ultra's would have been a far better plan than attacking them, and therefore inciting even more charging from both sets of fans. Idiotic Police beat idiotic fans on the night. Proves my point about needing rid of the Ultras. I don't see any Man Utd fans killing policemen. Oh my god I hate having to repeat myself. They are in ITALY, we have to adpat to how they work not the other way round! English people are so arrogant at times it is unbeliveable. Italy is trying to get rid of the Ultras by tackling the travelling support which 9 times out of 10 the most provocative. This is why it was the Man U fans who were kept in the ground for 90 minutes after the game, this is done every week. And to be honest it's not hard to see how the Roma fans/Police would see the Man u fans as a threat, walking through the streets of Rome singing football songs is a invatation for a fight in Italy, again differnt cultures. Singing and waving flags being drunk is all part of English/German/Scottish football, but in Italy it = Ultras which = fight. Ignorance again.
Flynny Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 Well no you wouldn't but thats not the point is it, you wouldn't call a white South African a racist twat would you, he knows no better than to act like that. Your a guest in their country you have to respect their culture and they way they deal with things, And as I say again the reason Man u fans got absloutley clobbared is because the Rome police are used to dealing with abslooute thugs who wont lie down until they are beaten stupid, for all they know Man u fans are no different. Neither do you say 'it's just their culture!' and excuse/ignore it. In the end what they did worked, they didn't charge the barrier again did they? Good point. In fact, why not chuck them into a lake wearing cement shoes? Italian culture, right? They won't attack the barrier again!
Hullfox Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 Italian police don't do that. I remember being in Milan when the Red Brigades were running riot. There was a big robbery at a restaurant just outside of town and the police sounded the alarm miles away so the robbers, with their machine guns, had time to scoot.They're not so keen when there's the likelihood of retaliation. Pointless post. 1) The Red Brigade existed from 1970 to 1984. You are talking about something over twenty years ago. 2) Milan is miles away from Rome which we are discussing. 3) Big robberies happen at banks. What did they steal? 3 sacks of McCains Oven Chips and a jar of Ragu? 4) Maybe just maybe they needed the sirens to get through traffic. 5) Maybe the robbers would have got away anyway.
john_lcfc Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 In the end what they did worked, they didn't charge the barrier again did they? In the end their actions meant that from a minority of fans (man united) charging the fence which they couldnt break down, the police decided to take their anger out on them and then this infuriated other fans and other fans got involved and ones trying to help injured people were beaten also. The police actions caused all the trouble that we are seeing on tv and if they had not indiscrimanately beaten united fans after a few charged the fence then none of this would of happened. As David Platt said - instead of stopping the violence the police joined in and added fuel to the fire.
Flynny Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 3) Big robberies happen at banks. What did they steal? 3 sacks of McCains Oven Chips and a jar of Ragu? lol
Hullfox Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 I'd just like to say, I don't condone the beating of innocent fans. If that was KNOWINGLY done, then as previously said, it is VERY wrong. Even Leeds?
C-man Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 Oh my god I hate having to repeat myself.They are in ITALY, we have to adpat to how they work not the other way round! English people are so arrogant at times it is unbeliveable. Italy is trying to get rid of the Ultras by tackling the travelling support which 9 times out of 10 the most provocative. This is why it was the Man U fans who were kept in the ground for 90 minutes after the game, this is done every week. And to be honest it's not hard to see how the Roma fans/Police would see the Man u fans as a threat, walking through the streets of Rome singing football songs is a invatation for a fight in Italy, again differnt cultures. Singing and waving flags being drunk is all part of English/German/Scottish football, but in Italy it = Ultras which = fight. Ignorance again. If you say so. I haven't been to a football match in Italy, especially not recently, so I wouldn't know how it is ran. I still think banning the Ultras would be a better long term solution. It just annoys me that the English are classed as hooligans when in truth every country in Europe is now far worse.
Manwell Pablo Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 In the end their actions meant that from a minority of fans (man united) charging the fence which they couldnt break down, the police decided to take their anger out on them and then this infuriated other fans and other fans got involved and ones trying to help injured people were beaten also. The police actions caused all the trouble that we are seeing on tv and if they had not indiscrimanately beaten united fans after a few charged the fence then none of this would of happened.As David Platt said - instead of stopping the violence the police joined in and added fuel to the fire. It was more than a few. And I saw a couple of them trying to climb the fence, the police were not taking their anger out on them, they were following their orders. Which will have been batter anything that gets close to that barrier on the visitors side. As I've said it's zero tolerance over there now, Man U fans were warned and their idoits. You don't break the law or cause trouble in a foreign country, as we are extremly lucky over here, the police don't have anywhere near the amount of power they do in most of Europe and the US. And as I say it worked, it did stop stop the violence in the long run. The Italian, Turkish other police have been battering people who are in the way of trouble for years and no one has said anything until it one of our teams on the recieving end, which of course isn't right as the English deserve to be treated like kings wherever they travel.
Thracian Posted 5 April 2007 Author Posted 5 April 2007 Pointless post.1) The Red Brigade existed from 1970 to 1984. You are talking about something over twenty years ago. 2) Milan is miles away from Rome which we are discussing. 3) Big robberies happen at banks. What did they steal? 3 sacks of McCains Oven Chips and a jar of Ragu? 4) Maybe just maybe they needed the sirens to get through traffic. 5) Maybe the robbers would have got away anyway. Not bad. 2/5.
Wils Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 This was sick. Made me laugh how the police were on the English side of the barrier and not the Italian,the poor bloke who was on the floor getting hit in the head by the police and he just carried on doing it. No need what so ever for this. They will get there Comeuppance one day.
Manwell Pablo Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 Just to stir the pot likeVideo Extract I can't belive one bloke has a look at whats going on, and then decideds to climb on the barrier to get away from it, tool
Flynny Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 Look closely at that. See the guy who signals to the police that he's helping the bloke who's injured and he's harmless? Just as it cuts away there's an arm swinging towards him.
Manwell Pablo Posted 5 April 2007 Posted 5 April 2007 Look closely at that. See the guy who signals to the police that he's helping the bloke who's injured and he's harmless?Just as it cuts away there's an arm swinging towards him. Well he obviously wasn't hurt to badly because it seems to be the same guy picking the guy covered in blood up!
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