Police take the chance to be thugs

[Thracian]

I honestly think it's another issue.

There is the question over whether both sides were policed the same, I admit.

But the issue I was (perhaps ineffectively) driving at was that people were attempting to excuse the actions of idiots charging a fence in a charged atmosphere, in a country notorious for hardcore, fanatical supporters where a policeman has recently been killed.

We are lucky to have what we have in this country in terms of watching football and you cannot simply expect to go abroad and act like animals and expect to get away with it, regardless of how anyone else in the country is acting.

Not all English fans there were hooligans, clearly, but the ones charging the fence were certainly idiots.

I don't think anyone's doubted the fans' idiocy.

Being idiotic doesn't justify being pummelled with a club long after you're lying helpless on the ground.

[The People's Hero]

Yeah and murderers/rapists shouldn't be sent to jail because they won't like it and won't be able to see their friends and stuff.

[Steven]

Thats a very easy question to answear, if you want to break up a ruck which side do you try and back bat, 70,000 Roma fans ro 2,000 Man u fans.

It's always the Away side that get the wrong end of the policemans bat in Italian stadiums, except they aren't stupid enough to try it in the stadiums anymore, as they know what will happen.

On that basis would a cowardly, racist thug be a fair description to the Policemen from last night?

[Thracian]

Yeah and murderers/rapists shouldn't be sent to jail because they won't like it and won't be able to see their friends and stuff.

Since when have people snarling against a fence in the face of similar provocation been akin to murderers and rapists?

I refer you to Manwell's comment. If they had Interflora for chilled beer I'd send you some.

It certainly wouldn't hurt!

[The People's Hero]

How about practical, pragmatic and realistic?

As Manwell said, the best way to curb/quell any potential problems.....

a) Take on 70,000 hardcore Roma fans

or

b) Far fewer (less than 3,000?) English fans?

It might not be MORALLY right? But then... they have a job to do and this was the most efficient way of doing it.

[Flynny]

No-one's conceding ANY ground here. It's like watching kids trying to snatch a blanket from each other.

Clearly Man United fans behaved in a way that was going to rile the police. They know the risks, they know someone's been killed. Doubtless a small number of them were genuine hooligans.

At the same time, some of the police went way over the top. They're shown repeatedly pummelling people on the floor who are clearly no longer a threat.

Idiots on both sides, both pissed up football fans showing up the country, and policemen giving people a battering for no good reason.

Oh, save it for the Daily Mail and the rest of your reactionary, lowest common denominator, idiot wordmiths.

Not quite sure where you're going with that. That post wasn't right wing in the slightest. Even the BBC are pretty clearly implying that at least some of the police were way over the top.

[The People's Hero]

Exactly. Idiot football fans, perhaps some idiot police.

Whatever your religious, political, moral whatever ideals/ideas.... YOU CANNOT ACCOUNT FOR IDIOTS.

Most of these people don't care what is right... so to discuss what is or isn't right about their actions is pointless and futile.

None of them will learn from it.

[Manwell Pablo]

On that basis would a cowardly, racist thug be a fair description to the Policemen from last night?

For one they were following orders. They will have been told to batter anyone who looks like causing trouble on the away side.

And I've already told you they deal with the away fans and remove them from the situaton, whether they are playing Milan or CSKA Moscow, if there's trouble race doesn't come into it it's safer to tackle the side with fewer numbers.

Trying to beat back at least 5,000 Roma ultras in their own stadium is not brave it is stupid. The Italians are currently taking a zero tolernace attitude towards football violence and the Man u fans we're stupid enough to get caught up in it.

I suppose it would of been best for all involved had the police just let them kick lumps into each other eh?

[Thracian]

How about practical, pragmatic and realistic?

As Manwell said, the best way to curb/quell any potential problems.....

a) Take on 70,000 hardcore Roma fans

or

b) Far fewer (less than 3,000?) English fans?

It might not be MORALLY right? But then... they have a job to do and this was the most efficient way of doing it.

Rubbish. There was no justification for it whatsoever.

[The People's Hero]

No-one's conceding ANY ground here. It's like watching kids trying to snatch a blanket from each other.

Clearly Man United fans behaved in a way that was going to rile the police. They know the risks, they know someone's been killed. Doubtless a small number of them were genuine hooligans.

At the same time, some of the police went way over the top. They're show pretty clearly repeatedly pummelling people on the floor who are clearly no longer a threat.

Idiots on both sides, both pissed up football fans showing up the country, and policemen giving people a battering for no good reason.

Not quite sure where you're going with that. That post wasn't right wing in the slightest. Even the BBC are pretty clearly implying that at least some of the police were way over the top.

I wasn't suggesting it was right-wing. You have mis-understood.

I meant it was sensationalised, reactionary and more emotive than it needed to be.

[Flynny]

I meant it was sensationalised, reactionary and more emotive than it needed to be.

Ah good, makes much more sense.

Possibly. I can see the arguement though. You expect football fans to be morons, but not the authorities.

[Manwell Pablo]

Rubbish. There was no justification for it whatsoever.

Cough* @ Flynny, I conceaded the Italian police went OTT in my very first post thank you!!!

They went over the top, but then the Italian police have been over the top for years, nobody seemed to care about Italian fans getting this shit battoned out of them for much less week in week out but a few Mancunians get a good pasting, after causing trouble for the second European away game running and all of a sudden the Italian police are evil.

THIS IS HOW THEY WORK, DIFFERENT CULTURE DIFFERENT PEOPLE DIFFERENT RULES!!!

EDIT: I'd like to appolgise for reffering to Man u fans as "Mancunians" I cleary wasn't thinking properly.

[Thracian]

For one they were following orders. They will have been told to batter anyone who looks like causing trouble on the away side.

And I've already told you they deal with the away fans and remove them from the situaton, whether they are playing Milan or CSKA Moscow, if there's trouble race doesn't come into it it's safer to tackle the side with fewer numbers.

Trying to beat back at least 5,000 Roma ultras in their own stadium is not brave it is stupid. The Italians are currently taking a zero tolernace attitude towards football violence and the Man u fans we're stupid enough to get caught up in it.

I suppose it would of been best for all involved had the police just let them kick lumps into each other eh?

That's the problem with orders. As has been demonstrated since the slaying of first born sons!. People in uniforms will obey any orders they're given - and boy haven't people paid for it over the centuries.

[The People's Hero]

Cough* @ Flynny, I conceaded the Italian police went OTT in my very first post thank you!!!

They went over the top, but then the Italian police have been over the top for years, nobody seemed to care about Italian fans getting this shit battoned out of them for much less week in week out but a few Mancunians get a good pasting, after causing trouble for the second European away game running and all of a sudden the Italian police are evil.

THIS IS HOW THEY WORK, DIFFERENT CULTURE DIFFERENT PEOPLE DIFFERENT RULES!!!

That's the point. It's in Italy. This is the Italian police. This is how they behave.

When these fans go to this country, they should be wary of this.

[Brainy]

I'm not going to read the posts, and all i've seen is the footage and the Italian Police (i think) warning Man Utd fans before the game that they'd react quickly to any trouble.

If the police were expecting trouble, then why the fûck did they stand on the Man Utd side, and not the Roma side aswell?

And if it all started due to Roma fans taunting the United fans, then the Utd fans are bigger idiots for reacting.

Prove me wrong. I'm sure you can.

[Thracian]

That's the point. It's in Italy. This is the Italian police. This is how they behave.

When these fans go to this country, they should be wary of this.

And they'll carry on behaving like that while people make excuses for them.

[The People's Hero]

I'm not going to read the posts, and all i've seen is the footage and the Italian Police (i think) warning Man Utd fans before the game that they'd react quickly to any trouble.

If the police were expecting trouble, then why the fûck did they stand on the Man Utd side, and not the Roma side aswell?

And if it all started due to Roma fans taunting the United fans, then the Utd fans are bigger idiots for reacting.

Prove me wrong. I'm sure you can.

You're pretty much there or thereabouts mate.

I appreciate you don't want to read back but the answer to where the police were standing etc is due to this.

In a potentially heated situation between 2 sides, do you attempt to beat back 70,000 fans... or 2,000 ish?

I think it's a plain and simple numbers/practicality thing.

[Flynny]

Cough* @ Flynny, I conceaded the Italian police went OTT in my very first post thank you!!!

They went over the top, but then the Italian police have been over the top for years, nobody seemed to care about Italian fans getting this shit battoned out of them for much less week in week out but a few Mancunians get a good pasting, after causing trouble for the second European away game running and all of a sudden the Italian police are evil.

THIS IS HOW THEY WORK, DIFFERENT CULTURE DIFFERENT PEOPLE DIFFERENT RULES!!!

Sure, you can defend the police whacking people being a bit lairy, even if that is slightly over the top. It's more difficult to defend, though, people being whacked who are doing absolutely nothing, or trying to help people on the floor.

The 'different culture, different rules' arguement is patently silly. You don't go to South Africa in the apartheid era, treat blacks like scum, and come back to Britain with a clear conscience because it's allowed over there.

EDIT: I'd like to appolgise for reffering to Man u fans as "Mancunians" I cleary wasn't thinking properly.

[Manwell Pablo]

That's the point. It's in Italy. This is the Italian police. This is how they behave.

When these fans go to this country, they should be wary of this.

I think United should seriously educate it's supporters about travelling away in Europe, some basic points A) don't by fake tickets off dodgy french people B) don't expect to be treated like royality by foriegn police because your English C) Don't expect forieng police to speak English, or read your mind and know why your climbing up the fence of the stadium D) don't fight with foriegn fans E) don't fight with forieng police F) if your in a high risk country don't walk down the streets singing Man U songs whilst pissed up (apparently what they did before kick off).

[breadandcheese]

I can't help but feel the big picture is being missed.

There is a big problem with the Italian game at the moment. Man Utd fans were attacked into the ground and had things thrown at them before any police action. Man Utd fans didn't help themselves by responding to provocation. They should have ignored it, avoiding trouble. However, the Italian authorities hardly helped the atmosphere by responding to Man Utd's warning letter in the way that they did. I believe some Italian authorities attacked it, labelled it racist and helped to stoke the atmosphere even more.

Middlesborough fans, Liverpool fans and now Man Utd fans have been stabbed and attacked in Rome. That is no coincidence.

The Italian police do not know how to deal with hooliganism. They need to learn. For once, we can be used as a positive example to the rest of Europe. The British police, in conjunction with the politicians of this country, have helped to stamp down on hooliganism and make it possible for proper supporters to go to most grounds and watch football without fear of being caught up in violence and trouble. Last night, innocent fans got caught up in trouble.

I always believe, maybe naively, that a policeman swipes and beats like that when a situation is out of control and they do not know how to handle it properly. The old flight or fight adrenaline rush takes over so they fight. The Italian authorities need to learn to deal with the problem in their game.

[The People's Hero]

I can't help but feel the big picture is being missed.

There is a big problem with the Italian game at the moment. Man Utd fans were attacked into the ground and had things thrown at them before any police action. Man Utd fans didn't help themselves by responding to provocation. They should have ignored it, avoiding trouble. However, the Italian authorities hardly helped the atmosphere by responding to Man Utd's warning letter in the way that they did. I believe some Italian authorities attacked it, labelled it racist and helped to stoke the atmosphere even more.

Middlesborough fans, Liverpool fans and now Man Utd fans have been stabbed and attacked in Rome. That is no coincidence.

The Italian police do not know how to deal with hooliganism. They need to learn. For once, we can be used as a positive example to the rest of Europe. The British police, in conjunction with the politicians of this country, have helped to stamp down on hooliganism and make it possible for proper supporters to go to most grounds and watch football without fear of being caught up in violence and trouble. Last night, innocent fans got caught up in trouble.

I always believe, maybe naively, that a policeman swipes and beats like that when a situation is out of control and they do not know how to handle it properly. The old flight or fight adrenaline rush takes over so they fight. The Italian authorities need to learn to deal with the problem in their game.

Yes. This is the bigger picture and is correct.

Bearing in mind all the above though and with people being stabbed in the past...

What kind of person tries to scale a fence?

Someone who should probably consider themselves lucky to have received a beating but still be alive.

[john_lcfc]

There were 2 sets of fans there last night of which several on each side were looking for trouble.

When Roma scored their first goal the police got the united fans back of the fence (fair enough). Then to repeatedly beat people who were defenceless on the ground is an absolute disgrace, incensed all other man united fans and made the situation worse. The police should be trained to deal calmly and responsibly to make as little violence as possible.

out of 2 sets of fans with tension running high the police instead of calming everything made another group for which 3 sets then began fighting.

Italian police are and were an absolute disgrace last night.

[Craig]

Yes, the police overreacted.

But why is it always Man Utd fans? I remember there being trouble downat the Walkers last time we were in the prem aswell at half time.

They didn't deserve that treatment, but they're not angels by any stretch of the imagination.

[Manwell Pablo]

Sure, you can defend the police whacking people being a bit lairy, even if that is slightly over the top. It's more difficult to defend, though, people being whacked who are doing absolutely nothing, or trying to help people on the floor.

The 'different culture, different rules' arguement is patently silly. You don't go to South Africa in the apartheid era, treat blacks like scum, and come back to Britain with a clear conscience because it's allowed over there.

Well no you wouldn't but thats not the point is it, you wouldn't call a white South African a racist twat would you, he knows no better than to act like that. Your a guest in their country you have to respect their culture and they way they deal with things, And as I say again the reason Man u fans got absloutley clobbared is because the Rome police are used to dealing with abslooute thugs who wont lie down until they are beaten stupid, for all they know Man u fans are no different.

[Hullfox]

It would be interesting to see how this is portrayed in the Italian Press today.

Seems to me you can look at it from two perspectives. Thrach argues that the police should not behave like that, MP and TPH argue that you have to adapt your behaviour to the culture you are visiting.

I'm with the latter. If you know the tinderbox situation in Italy with regards to football, you don't incite it, the consequences can be horrific as we saw.

If the Police behaved like that in the UK it would be frowned upon by everyone I'm sure.

However these fans weren't in the UK, they were in Rome and when in Rome.............