Police take the chance to be thugs

[breadandcheese]

Whatever way you look at it, calling it a different culture or anything else, the Italian police are poorly trained and unable to handle a situation like this. They do not seem to know how to deal with the hooligan culture that is amongst Italian football and seem unable to control crowds in a packed stadium.

[Daggers]

3) Big robberies happen at banks. What did they steal? 3 sacks of McCains Oven Chips and a jar of Ragu?

:laugh: I almost wish I hadn't been out enjoying the sun so I could have joined in with this thread all day.

If no one had run to the fence the police would not have attacked anybody. It really is as simple as that.

[Manwell Pablo]

Whatever way you look at it, calling it a different culture or anything else, the Italian police are poorly trained and unable to handle a situation like this. They do not seem to know how to deal with the hooligan culture that is amongst Italian football and seem unable to control crowds in a packed stadium.

Endless people keep saying this but haven't heard any one tell me how you deal with the hooligan culture in Italian football without using your baton. Hand them all some roses and tell them to play nicely?

[breadandcheese]

If no one had run to the fence the police would not have attacked anybody. It really is as simple as that.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. Missiles were being thrown by both sets of supporters.

The Roma fans originally charged towards the barrier, nothing happened. The Man Utd fans also run to the barrier, the police come charging out at the Utd fans. In my mind, it is about equality of treatment as much as sensible stewarding and policing.

It certainly makes our complaints of heavy handed stewarding pale into insignificance.

[Daggers]

Whatever way you look at it, calling it a different culture or anything else, the Italian police are poorly trained and unable to handle a situation like this. They do not seem to know how to deal with the hooligan culture that is amongst Italian football and seem unable to control crowds in a packed stadium.

You are looking at it from your own personal cultural perspective.

Looking at it another way - they dealt with the situation very well. Once they'd finished there weren't any Manure fans gesticulating by the fence about to take part in a riot were there?

In Colombia they shot people at games I went to. Dead. Different cultures have different ways of doing things.

[Daggers]

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. Missiles were being thrown by both sets of supporters.

That's the same mentality of a kid that gets caught doing something wrong and goes "...but they were doing it" while pointing over at someone striking an innocent pose.

If Manure hadn't started or hadn't retaliated (however you want to cut it) they would not have been attacked. Fact.

[Steven]

You are looking at it from your own personal cultural perspective.

Looking at it another way - they dealt with the situation very well. Once they'd finished there weren't any Manure fans gesticulating by the fence about to take part in a riot were there?

In Colombia they shot people at games I went to. Dead. Different cultures have different ways of doing things.

Fine but all across Europe the Police can access your records and details and yet there is not the same kind of protections for the citizens of Europe.

It is all very well to say diiferent cultures, yet the Police in other European countries are happy to follow other cultures when it suits them but I want equal protection wherever I travel in Europe.

[Manwell Pablo]

Fine but all across Europe the Police can access your records and details and yet there is not the same kind of protections for the citizens of Europe.

It is all very well to say diiferent cultures, yet the Police in other European countries are happy to follow other cultures when it suits them but I want equal protection wherever I travel in Europe.

Don't break the ****ing law and you'll get equal protection

[Steven]

Don't break the ****ing law and you'll get equal protection

If I don't break the law like many last night I get the same protection as I many of the Roma fans? For many Man U fans (I cannot believe I am defending them) this was not the case.

[Manwell Pablo]

If I don't break the law like many last night I get the same protection as I many of the Roma fans? For many Man U fans (I cannot believe I am defending them) this was not the case.

The police cleared the area of Man U fans, so if you got twated you had go to close to he barrier which means you were trying to insight violence which is a criminal offense, if you were away from the barrier you wouldn't of got twatted. As I have said the fans made a good 10 15 meters to get to that barrier and the Roma fans were only about 5 meters away.

The police had the job of preventing a full scale riot which they achieved, had they started fighting both sets of supporters they wouldn't of achieved this, in fact they would of been over run.

[breadandcheese]

Endless people keep saying this but haven't heard any one tell me how you deal with the hooligan culture in Italian football without using your baton. Hand them all some roses and tell them to play nicely?

Nothing says thank you better than a box of cadbury's roses.

Or maybe we look at how we do things here at home. By and large we have eradicated the problem and have an excellent record in stewarding/policing games. We may complain about being told not to swear, things like that, but really, the policing is excellent.

For example, over here, if you are antagonising away fans (or home fans) you are liable to be thrown out. A snatch team of 7 or 8 officers will go up there and arrest you. They'll do this before any trouble can escalate.

Similarly, if you are a known hooligan, there are powers in place to stop you entering stadia. None of this seemed to happen last night.

Should trouble break out, how often do you see our police armed only with batons. No, they have shields, a much more defensive weapon. Arm anybody with just a baton and the only way to deal with a situation is to swipe and hit. On top of that, you have to be extra aggresive, because you cannot afford anybody to grab that weapon off you. Arm that person with a shield and they can drive supporters back to separate factions whilst protecting themselves.

Our police would also attempt to separate both sets of supporters, rather than targeting one group and allowing the other to continually throw missiles.

[Thracian]

Endless people keep saying this but haven't heard any one tell me how you deal with the hooligan culture in Italian football without using your baton. Hand them all some roses and tell them to play nicely?

How precisely to deal with troublemakers/crime/criminals is a subject of widespread debate but involving innocent people while tackling, dissuading or punishing the guilty is not a reasonable or civilised option, especially when it involves one, never mind repeated, whacks over the head and body with a baton.

[The People's Hero]

How precisely to deal with troublemakers/crime/criminals is a subject of widespread debate but involving innocent people while tackling, dissuading or punishing the guilty is not a reasonable or civilised option, especially when it involves one, never mind repeated, whacks over the head and body with a baton.

Thracian. Read Manwell's post and at least TRY to understand what SOMEONE ELSE is saying for once.

PEOPLE CLOSE TO THE BARRIER WERE GETTING HIT.

They SHOULD NOT have been close to the barrier.

They had warning... they must even have seen others getting hit.

They were not entirely innocent.

[Manwell Pablo]

Nothing says thank you better than a box of cadbury's roses.

Or maybe we look at how we do things here at home. By and large we have eradicated the problem and have an excellent record in stewarding/policing games. We may complain about being told not to swear, things like that, but really, the policing is excellent.

For example, over here, if you are antagonising away fans (or home fans) you are liable to be thrown out. A snatch team of 7 or 8 officers will go up there and arrest you. They'll do this before any trouble can escalate.

Similarly, if you are a known hooligan, there are powers in place to stop you entering stadia. None of this seemed to happen last night.

Should trouble break out, how often do you see our police armed only with batons. No, they have shields, a much more defensive weapon. Arm anybody with just a baton and the only way to deal with a situation is to swipe and hit. On top of that, you have to be extra aggresive, because you cannot afford anybody to grab that weapon off you. Arm that person with a shield and they can drive supporters back to separate factions whilst protecting themselves.

Our police would also attempt to separate both sets of supporters, rather than targeting one group and allowing the other to continually throw missiles.

I know the Italian authorties are working on attempting to ban known hoolignas but it's difficult, there are tons of them. And they are good at remaining undetected.

Try and throw people like that out of stadiums in Italy you will get mobbed. Batons and sheilds togther already fail to effectively control Italian football extremists, another Italian policeman ended up in hospital last night. I think alot of people fail to comprehend the situation in Italy, a Policeman has died, the last thing they are going to do is unarm their police officers.

[Manwell Pablo]

Thracian. Read Manwell's post and at least TRY to understand what SOMEONE ELSE is saying for once.

PEOPLE CLOSE TO THE BARRIER WERE GETTING HIT.

They SHOULD NOT have been close to the barrier.

They had warning... they must even have seen others getting hit.

They were not entirely innocent.

I've had a read on the net and people who claim to be 100% innocent admit to not being hit, one couple even said a Italian policeman sheilded them and told them to move away from the area.

[breadandcheese]

That's the same mentality of a kid that gets caught doing something wrong and goes "...but they were doing it" while pointing over at someone striking an innocent pose.

If Manure hadn't started or hadn't retaliated (however you want to cut it) they would not have been attacked. Fact.

Equally, if Roma had started it, charged the screen, threw missiles, they would not have been attacked. There is no moral equivalence. Both sets of supporters are committing crimes. Only one group is being punished. The hooligan problem amongst the Ultras is not being stopped but merely emboldened.

None of us here endorse violence, that much is clear. However, it is impossible to condone the police behaviour when they fail to stop Roma's ultras.

If Man U fans had followed your advice. They would have sat there watching a game whilst missiles rained down on them and the police did nothing. If you had gone abroad to watch your team and this happened, you would be sending a letter to the club, UEFA and everybody else concerned.

[Daggers]

If Man U fans had followed your advice. They would have sat there watching a game whilst missiles rained down on them and the police did nothing.

Yes - and your point is?

Surely you are not going to tell me that charging a fence would have brought this matter to a swift resolution?

[breadandcheese]

I know the Italian authorties are working on attempting to ban known hoolignas but it's difficult, there are tons of them. And they are good at remaining undetected.

Try and throw people like that out of stadiums in Italy you will get mobbed. Batons and sheilds togther already fail to effectively control Italian football extremists, another Italian policeman ended up in hospital last night. I think alot of people fail to comprehend the situation in Italy, a Policeman has died, the last thing they are going to do is unarm their police officers.

I'm not talking unarm the police, I am talking giving them adequate training and giving them adequate protection. An orgainsed police riot team in UK would be armed with batons and shields. It doesn't appear to be the case in Italy.

The scenes last night are reminiscent of the 70s and 80s here. We dealt with the problem. They should virtually carbon copy what we did.

[breadandcheese]

Yes - and your point is?

Surely you are not going to tell me that charging a fence would have brought this matter to a swift resolution?

Well apparently, charging at Man U fans did.

My point is that the policing was poor. Man U fans charging at the fence shows they're idiots. However, it appears that last night, the police were going to offer no protection to the Man Utd fans inside the stadium should they behave impeccably. Instead they would have been content to watch missiles being thrown potentially on parents, women and children, as long as they did not have to go up against the Roma Ultras. In my opinion, that is a disgrace. Their job is to ensure a safe atmosphere inside the ground for all.

[Fez of Mahrez]

Quite why anyone would want to run towards the barrier is beyond me. Some people are just idiots.

[Manwell Pablo]

Well apparently, charging at Man U fans did.

My point is that the policing was poor. Man U fans charging at the fence shows they're idiots. However, it appears that last night, the police were going to offer no protection to the Man Utd fans inside the stadium should they behave impeccably. Instead they would have been content to watch missiles being thrown potentially on parents, women and children, as long as they did not have to go up against the Roma Ultras. In my opinion, that is a disgrace. Their job is to ensure a safe atmosphere inside the ground for all.

The Roma fans didn't seem to Charge the fence they just approached it a wind the Man u fans up, they retailated by charging the Roma fans already at the fence, it's unclear who started the missles first so please stop insuating it was without question the Italians.

[Geo V]

How dumb are the Mancs?!!

Roma charge the barrier whacking it and they have no police on there side so the Mancs charge the other side of the barrier, with no chance of touching a Roma fan with the cops lined up on there side. Why did they bother charguing it FFS?? Sometimes, the goons that we have in this country just amaze me with there stupidity. They were in no danger but couldnt help but act. Im glad they got a beating for being dumb .

[Steven]

Just to stir the pot like

Video Extract

I hope I never see an Italian copper asking for help as I shall cross the road. The guy who was hit was tripped up and was pushed from behind. No-one, for any specious cross cultural reasons, can possibly excuse that unless they themselves have become as brutalised as the Policemen.

[Fez of Mahrez]

I hope I never see an Italian copper asking for help as I shall cross the road. The guy who was hit was tripped up and was pushed from behind. No-one, for any specious cross cultural reasons, can possibly excuse that unless they themselves have become as brutalised as the Policemen.

But why was he there in the first place?

[The People's Hero]

But why was he there in the first place?

Shhhh!

I think they've chosen to conveniently ignore that, mate!