The 2015 Sunday Times Rich List

[Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo]

The ordinary working man in my opinion is anyone from a street cleaner to higher managemen

 

Sexist

[Guest MattP]

Sweeping generalisations are fantastic aren't they? Who are you to say if people have suffered hardships etc. Just because people have money, it doesn't necessarily make life great. It's this whole generalising thing about the 'working man' is good, and rich people are bad which is nonsense and has been commented on before. 

 

It sounds very much as if you are envious, no matter what you say. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. It would be lovely to be born in to a family and never have to worry (about money) for your entire life. Who WOULDN'T be envious of that?

 

Let's flip things over a little here shall we, just to play devil's advocate. If someone earns their money, that's fine, but you don't want it to just be given to rich people, or don't want them to be born in to it, right? How can you take that stance, and then defend people who don't turn up to a Jobseekers meeting, or don't adhere to the rules set out to claim benefits but still want the money? The same goes for making money, as collecting it FOR FREE....Where there is a will, there is a way, so if people want it, they have to find a way to get it.

 

Bloody good post.

[Guest MattP]

Fair enough, Matt. But if that's banter, perhaps you should stop taking the Grauniad (and other assorted columnists) seriously when they engage in ridiculous hyperbole too. After all, they're just raising a little laugh, right?

 

In any case, you interpret what was said one way, I do another.

 

As another point, it is actually possible to want to criticise the rich without envy automatically being the case. As has been said, some people don't buy into the idea of continual material gain as an objective in life and so aren't envious of those who have it, but criticise them instead for the lack of morality and empathy some (and I did say some) of those rich people possess. Especially when (again, sometimes) they and those that support them then attempt to turn around and deride those who dislike and don't play by the same system as 'envious' and give themselves an aura of social superiority.

 

Accumulating material wealth is fine if that's what floats your boat, but there's honestly no need to express derision for others who think that there might be other decent ways to live.

 

I think a comment on a internet form is a little different to a column in a supposed high brow paper, even more so when the journalists who write the Grauniad articles often appear on Question Time to speak the same opinions on a serious topical debate show - there is no evidence to suggest the Guardian journalists are actually having a laugh, just have a read of the letters page.

 

Again, I don't see how anyone is expressing derision on here apart from those seeing the class war and envy politics of the usual lot.

[Rincewind]

I bought a book in a charity shop yesterday. Meltdown by Ben Elton. It is basically about a bloke who built up a fortune by playing the market and investing in schemes, properties etc but then loses everything when the stock market crashed. He has a circle of friends known since uni and they have stuck together. Starts off with him getting a phone call from one who is an advisor in Browns Government about a building Society about to go bust so he sells his shares.

Not got to how he loses his fortune yet but the theme is will his friends stick by him when he has nothing?

 

Move to the reading thread if appropriate but this does sort of fit in with the topic because it shows how easy fortunes can be made and lost.

[leicsmac]

Sweeping generalisations are fantastic aren't they? Who are you to say if people have suffered hardships etc. Just because people have money, it doesn't necessarily make life great. It's this whole generalising thing about the 'working man' is good, and rich people are bad which is nonsense and has been commented on before. 

 

It sounds very much as if you are envious, no matter what you say. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. It would be lovely to be born in to a family and never have to worry (about money) for your entire life. Who WOULDN'T be envious of that?

 

Let's flip things over a little here shall we, just to play devil's advocate. If someone earns their money, that's fine, but you don't want it to just be given to rich people, or don't want them to be born in to it, right? How can you take that stance, and then defend people who don't turn up to a Jobseekers meeting, or don't adhere to the rules set out to claim benefits but still want the money? The same goes for making money, as collecting it FOR FREE....Where there is a will, there is a way, so if people want it, they have to find a way to get it.

 

I wouldn't be. Way I see it we're all going to end up the same way, and there's fulfilling stuff you can do from life that doesn't involve money (or much money). And, better yet, those things that I did that did involve money - I personally would have worked for them, and earned them.

 

My feelings towards such people (born into money) would range from indifference to annoyance based on their personal ethical compass, but not envy. Why would I? They're only human - just like the rest of us.

 

Your third paragraph, however, I totally agree with.

[leicsmac]

I think a comment on a internet form is a little different to a column in a supposed high brow paper, even more so when the journalists who write the Grauniad articles often appear on Question Time to speak the same opinions on a serious topical debate show - there is no evidence to suggest the Guardian journalists are actually having a laugh, just have a read of the letters page.

 

Again, I don't see how anyone is expressing derision on here apart from those seeing the class war and envy politics of the usual lot.

 

Edit: As there is no evidence to suggest this contributor is having a laugh either. It works both ways.

 

Are you not using the term 'envy politics' and the term 'envy' in general in a derisive fashion then? Like I said, it's possible to dislike those better off for different reasons.

 

In any case, this is interesting, as usual.

[Darkon84]

I wouldn't be. Way I see it we're all going to end up the same way, and there's fulfilling stuff you can do from life that doesn't involve money (or much money). And, better yet, those things that I did that did involve money - I personally would have worked for them, and earned them.

 

My feelings towards such people (born into money) would range from indifference to annoyance based on their personal ethical compass, but not envy. Why would I? They're only human - just like the rest of us.

 

Your third paragraph, however, I totally agree with.

 

That's a fair enough stance and you're totally correct in that fulfilling something and achieving something off of your own back and sweat is infinitely more rewarding. I've seen your stance on wealth previously and as you say above, there are more things to life than money and whilst you may be right, it appears to be a necessary evil today and not one which will disappear anytime soon. I perhaps could have elaborated further. There would be nothing to stop you from still achieving life goals from your own sweat and tears should you be born in to money, that's the way I'd still like to do it. Though it would be nice to have a safety net resembling something similar to Scrooge McDuck's swimming pool of gold! Haha.

[Rincewind]

Sweeping generalisations are fantastic aren't they? Who are you to say if people have suffered hardships etc. Just because people have money, it doesn't necessarily make life great. It's this whole generalising thing about the 'working man' is good, and rich people are bad which is nonsense and has been commented on before. 

 

It sounds very much as if you are envious, no matter what you say. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. It would be lovely to be born in to a family and never have to worry (about money) for your entire life. Who WOULDN'T be envious of that?

 

Let's flip things over a little here shall we, just to play devil's advocate. If someone earns their money, that's fine, but you don't want it to just be given to rich people, or don't want them to be born in to it, right? How can you take that stance, and then defend people who don't turn up to a Jobseekers meeting, or don't adhere to the rules set out to claim benefits but still want the money? The same goes for making money, as collecting it FOR FREE....Where there is a will, there is a way, so if people want it, they have to find a way to get it.

 

EDIT: Nothing personal by the way, I'm just being picky and getting a little tired by some arguments.

I do not defend benefit claiments who break the rules. Also people have been sanctioned for missing an appointment when they have a starting date for a job, attending a funeral, sick in hospital and dead. Letters are sent out late or wrongly dated.

It is not always the claimants fault. They are expected to use a jobsearch site which is full of errors. Some people do not have the know how how to use a PC or cannot afford one or have access to one.The claimant is not always  advised of their rights when signing the agreement. It is sign or lose all your money. They are not told about emergancy payments leaving them with no income. Don't believe me? There are ex jobcentre staff who have set up a website advisory service giving advice on rights and information about what goes on.

And again I am not envious because I am happy with what I have. I have friends who will stick by me in bad times and know what it is like to go through bad times. Some have suffered depression homelessness and I would say they are the most generous and kindest people I have met not focused on making more money. So no I am not jealous of the mega rich. They are the losers.

[Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo]

So no I am not jealous of the mega rich. They are the losers.

 

They're not though are they? I'm guessing most of them have friends and all that bullshit, but they have loads of money and cool possessions too

[Darkon84]

I do not defend benefit claiments who break the rules. Also people have been sanctioned for missing an appointment when they have a starting date for a job, attending a funeral, sick in hospital and dead. Letters are sent out late or wrongly dated.

It is not always the claimants fault. They are expected to use a jobsearch site which is full of errors. Some people do not have the know how how to use a PC or cannot afford one or have access to one.The claimant is not always  advised of their rights when signing the agreement. It is sign or lose all your money. They are not told about emergancy payments leaving them with no income. Don't believe me? There are ex jobcentre staff who have set up a website advisory service giving advice on rights and information about what goes on.

And again I am not envious because I am happy with what I have. I have friends who will stick by me in bad times and know what it is like to go through bad times. Some have suffered depression homelessness and I would say they are the most generous and kindest people I have met not focused on making more money. So no I am not jealous of the mega rich. They are the losers.

 

 

That's quite a snarling retort there Rincey, I'll know not to provoke the beast again

It just seems that it's NEVER the claimant's fault. I know people myself who have been on JSA etc, so I have seen that the system has it's flaws and it could/should be run a hell of a lot better. However, there is always a way to get around these flaws, and most of them require a bit of initiative which seems to be where claimants fall down. You don't have a PC? Use the one for free in the Library. You don't know how to use it? They will help you. Besides, when filling in the JSA booklet, they allow you to use different resources, not just a single website. You can use any number of more coherent sites, newspaper job adverts etc. Two people I know who have been on JSA recently have both been very well qualified, but simply don't get jobs because of their own fault. One is a VERY highly trained carpenter, but is bone idle, and the other has 2 degrees but is lazy, refuses to lower expectations and blames everyone else for not getting a job. It's incredibly frustrating to see.

 

'They are the losers'

 

Real classy

[Rincewind]

If you have money you will have friends but will they still be friends if you did not have it. As they say you find out who your friends are when you have nothing. Also you are expected to pay your bills on time.

[Darkon84]

If you have money you will have friends but will they still be friends if you did not have it. As they say you find out who your friends are when you have nothing. Also you are expected to pay your bills on time.

 

Another fantastic sweeping generalisation. 'Rich people don't have real friends'.

 

Come off it mate.

[Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo]

If you have money you will have friends but will they still be friends if you did not have it. As they say you find out who your friends are when you have nothing. Also you are expected to pay your bills on time.

 

Just a bunch of cliches!

 

Why do you romanticise being poor so much? Wealthy people can have lasting friendships, poor people can have rubbish friendships. Everyone is expected to pay bills on time. People who mess up filling out their JSA forms are sometimes to blame (I'd argue nearly always to blame, as the amount of absolutely useless oiks seems to far outweigh genuine unfortunate unemployed people... but that's nearly a generalisation so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt)

 

I was hoping you'd read my earlier post - you seem to think there are two types of people in the world:

- "The average working man" - more often than not, actually unemployed or zero hours contract getting shafted by "the man" on a daily basis. Is owed 50% of "the man's" income.

- Wealthy lonely rich banker scum (aka "the man"). In bed with the Tories, definitely a tax-dodger... possibly a paedo. Only associates with others of the same kind. Should be jailed for merely existing. (Except the jails are full of XBoxes and ice cream)

 

As ridiculous as that reads, it really feels like that is your genuine view. You'll then reply with "Can't you read? I love people who've built up their fortune. I can't stand the rich bankers born with gold spoon up the 'arris but I'll have the last laugh when me and all my homeless friends dance on his grave cos he died of loneliness cos he ended up on JSA cos he forgot to pay his bill on time and system didn't pay him his JSA cos it messed up and all his friends left him and we're having a great time eating his cash cow"

[Itsthejoeker]

I don't think it's pretty clear at all, I think it's pretty clear he's raising a little laugh at the amount of envy ridden comments he's seeing on here, I certainly don't take just from that comment he's saying that wealth is the sole achievement life should be judged on.

Precisely. A lot of the comments made about richer people (not just on here) are based on pure envy. Wealth is not a measure of achievement no, but to gain a large amount of wealth, you will achieve things along the way I.e. Branson and Sugar to take a tiny sample.

[Rincewind]

That's quite a snarling retort there Rincey, I'll know not to provoke the beast again

It just seems that it's NEVER the claimant's fault. I know people myself who have been on JSA etc, so I have seen that the system has it's flaws and it could/should be run a hell of a lot better. However, there is always a way to get around these flaws, and most of them require a bit of initiative which seems to be where claimants fall down. You don't have a PC? Use the one for free in the Library. You don't know how to use it? They will help you. Besides, when filling in the JSA booklet, they allow you to use different resources, not just a single website. You can use any number of more coherent sites, newspaper job adverts etc. Two people I know who have been on JSA recently have both been very well qualified, but simply don't get jobs because of their own fault. One is a VERY highly trained carpenter, but is bone idle, and the other has 2 degrees but is lazy, refuses to lower expectations and blames everyone else for not getting a job. It's incredibly frustrating to see.

 

'They are the losers'

 

Real classy

Sorry it was never meant to come across as snarling. And yes there are ways around the system. When you are given the card the advisor may say you have to sign up for their job search site and agree to give them access to your email account so they can check up on applications you made but you do not. The problem is that those with learning disabilities or those who are on JSA  after being employed for a number of years do not know this so are punished. I found out the hard way. I was searching for  jobs that suited my ability etc but was sanctioned for not applying for a job they suggested which I thought I was under qualified for mainly in the physical sense. I was told not being able to do the job was no reason not to apply for it. After that I applied for anything. My best applications I saved for the ones I thought I could do  and had a chance of getting. Although I was surprised to get a reply concerning a job as a care assistant. They offered training but then I never got any further info about start date.

In the end as I knew retirement was due I just did what was expected and even the staff at  the  JC accepted it. It seems things have gone from one extreme to the other for jobseekers.

[leicsmac]

Precisely. A lot of the comments made about richer people (not just on here) are based on pure envy. Wealth is not a measure of achievement no, but to gain a large amount of wealth, you will achieve things along the way I.e. Branson and Sugar to take a tiny sample.

 

Thank you for clarifying your position; your initial post was rather ambiguous. Would you concede though that envy is not the only reason that some people dislike the better off? 

 

Wealth and achievement (by which I'm assuming you man the fulfilment of working tasks) don't necessarily go hand in hand either - some people are rich despite never having 'achieved' anything in their lives by that measure, whereas others might work for a very great portion of their lives and never get close to wealth. 

[Carl the Llama]

Who's defending unscrupulous behaviour?

Nobody outright, but indirectly there's a lot defence by implication that all people with wealth are virtuous paragons of humanity, which is what I was addressing.

[MooseBreath]

Thank you for clarifying your position; your initial post was rather ambiguous. Would you concede though that envy is not the only reason that some people dislike the better off?

Wealth and achievement (by which I'm assuming you man the fulfilment of working tasks) don't necessarily go hand in hand either - some people are rich despite never having 'achieved' anything in their lives by that measure, whereas others might work for a very great portion of their lives and never get close to wealth.

So because some people have inherited wealth, which is a consequence of somebody earning money and choosing to use that money to support their family, that means everyone who has a bit of money is basically scum?

[leicsmac]

So because some people have inherited wealth, which is a consequence of somebody earning money and choosing to use that money to support their family, that means everyone who has a bit of money is basically scum?

 

Nope, but nor are they all virtuous paragons who should be examples to follow either.

 

As always, the truth is somewhere in between. It depends - as it almost always does - on the person.

[MooseBreath]

Nope, but nor are they all virtuous paragons who should be examples to follow either.

As always, the truth is somewhere in between. It depends - as it almost always does - on the person.

In general terms achieving wealth requires hard work, dedication, intelligence, people skills, problem solving skills etc etc. All good positive attributes for which they shouldn't be vilified, in anything they should be held up as positive role models.

Some poor people in this country can't help it, the majority could do something about it but just can't be bothered. Which is perfectly fine as long as they're self-sufficient of course, but it does mean they're less worthy as role models.

Substitute materially rich for culturally rich, spiritually rich, artistically rich or whatever you want, the same applies.

[Itsthejoeker]

Thank you for clarifying your position; your initial post was rather ambiguous. Would you concede though that envy is not the only reason that some people dislike the better off? 

 

Wealth and achievement (by which I'm assuming you man the fulfilment of working tasks) don't necessarily go hand in hand either - some people are rich despite never having 'achieved' anything in their lives by that measure, whereas others might work for a very great portion of their lives and never get close to wealth. 

 

I agree, it isn't the only reason those who a better off are disliked. However, I notice it more and more these days where people have a completely unjust or non-existent reason as to why they dislike the wealthy, which to me appears envious.

[leicsmac]

In general terms achieving wealth requires hard work, dedication, intelligence, people skills, problem solving skills etc etc. All good positive attributes for which they shouldn't be vilified, in anything they should be held up as positive role models.

Some poor people in this country can't help it, the majority could do something about it but just can't be bothered. Which is perfectly fine as long as they're self-sufficient of course, but it does mean they're less worthy as role models.

Substitute materially rich for culturally rich, spiritually rich, artistically rich or whatever you want, the same applies.

 

I disagree. I think hitting a level of sufficiency that is enough for you to not be too unconsensually reliant on others and then being content with your lot is just as laudable as high drive and ambition. Both seem to bring happiness to the individuals involved, and perhaps that restraint can lead to greater sustainability in the future. 

 

Honestly don't see why we should prize one over the other.

 

 

I agree, it isn't the only reason those who a better off are disliked. However, I notice it more and more these days where people have a completely unjust or non-existent reason as to why they dislike the wealthy, which to me appears envious.

 

And I dislike irrationality as much as you do; I agree, there are a lot of arguments regarding this that are based on envy. However that should not be used as an excuse to then disparage the legitimate reasons for the dislike of (some) wealthy figures.

[Webbo]

Nobody outright, but indirectly there's a lot defence by implication that all people with wealth are virtuous paragons of humanity, which is what I was addressing.

I think a more common implication on here is that rich people are undeserving of their wealth and must have gained them by unsavoury means.

[Itsthejoeker]

A key note to remember here is that tax evasion and tax avoidance a different. One is unethical and immoral, the other is illegal. 

[1993fox]

Usmanov with 2b more pounds than Abramovich but of what use?