The Politics Thread

[Guest]

When I compare the sexism and racism of England to that of a Muslim society I'm proud to be English.

 

I'm just sad our fair-mindedness has resulted, not in a better society but Asian gangs plying under-aged white girls with drugs and turning them into sex slaves under the very noses of supposedly responsible councils.

 

Sad that our once pleasant schools have been targeted for religious grooming by Muslim fundamentalists, that all our streets are now furnished with security cameras and even our basic communications are increasingly monitored for fear of any terrorism implications.

 

Sad that I wouldn't dream of leaving my doors open now when once I wouldn't have given it a second thought.

 

I cannot overstate the damage done by the ill-conceived philosophies of the Lefties and with worse to come for sure.

 

Yet still our gates stay wide open for too many people who basically despise our freedoms, our philosophies and our way of life .

 

Once I could have got a doctors appointment at random.

 

Now I'd be quicker to train as a doctor and treat myself.

 

Doctors and nurses are leaving in their droves due to the now ridiculous demands on them and other services are creaking just as badly.

 

Sexist and racist? This country has bent over to be fair to people yet has still been shit on by far too many.          

 

I look around the world at non-white leaderships and what do I see?

 

Well, not the kind of promised lands you seem to imagine. And if there were, why the hell does everyone want to live here?

 

For a shit country, run by shitty white folk, it seems mighty popular.   

 

Couldn't be bothered to read your long post after the first sentence (and glimpsing the last).

 

You are clearly a man of a dying generation and your prejudices will only die with you.

[Guest]

How do you know that Britain is a sexist and racist country?

 

Because of the FACTS. For example the inequality in pay for men and women doing the same job.The inequality in the number of women and non-white men in directoral positions.

 

If you're saying it doesn't exist then you are misled or simply lieing.

 

Things are better than when Thracian was a boy and heading in a better direction but both sexism and racism exist in the UK.

[Guest]

That's exactly the issue with your whole post and outlook, in my opinion. Just because we are more moral, humanitarian etc than another country/regime does not mean that we're faultless. Also, make you 'proud to be English' just because we're not as despicable as another nation? Pride really has sunk to the bottom of the barrel if that's the case. Are you proud to be English because we only have a minor race, sexuality and gender issues, as opposed to say Saudi Arabia? We only slag immigrants off on the internet, in our press and subject them to verbal abuse as opposed to murdering or torturing them like other countries. 

Yes Britain is fantastic compared to the majority of the world, but let's not pretend it's faultless, or even close to that. Get your head out of the sand and acknowledge that problems do exist in this country that fall outside of immigration.

 

Another one who gets it!

[Guest]

Yeah let's condemn and berate our minor faults, rather be proud and celebrate our successes. Great plan Dave. I bet you are a joy to be around.

 

If people had your view a few decades (and a few centuries) ago the UK wouldn't have become as tolerant as it is.

 

Why be proud of "not as bad as" when you can continue to progress and be "good".

 

There is no reason for the inequality of women unless you believe that women are inferior to you.

 

There is no reason for racism unless you believe the colour of skin makes one superior to another.

 

Still I'm guessing that you're against slavery and would like to remove that from the UK too.

[Guest]

I read up hugely on the subject of world conflicts and, while I seriously commend your optimism about humanity, see no signs that man is "progressing" in anything but physical rather than philosophical ways, and then only to a relatively negligible degree.

 

Mind you I do wonder if evil is programmed into people (some believe that life is a computer game) as a means of bringing the best out of the menders - like those who invent new limb replacements for those who've had their limbs blown off or even work on the science of growing new parts completely.

 

I'm never really sure what planet you live on.

[Thracian]

Why's that? 

The considerable advances I've mentioned above would never have been made at such a remarkable pace if medics and their associates had not been presented with the challenge of severely wounded patients from various theatres of war requiring answers quickly. As for the theory of life being a computer game it's nothing new but goes back centuries. However, here's the latest.      

 

http://www.vice.com/read/whoa-dude-are-we-inside-a-computer-right-now-0000329-v19n9

[MooseBreath]

Because of the FACTS. For example the inequality in pay for men and women doing the same job.The inequality in the number of women and non-white men in directoral positions.

If you're saying it doesn't exist then you are misled or simply lieing.

Things are better than when Thracian was a boy and heading in a better direction but both sexism and racism exist in the UK.

The 2015 ONS annual survey of hours and earnings showed that women employed full time aged between 22 and 29 were paid more than their male counterparts, while between the ages of 30 and 39 the gap was statistically insignificant. Those are FACTS. Look them up for yourself if you don't believe me.

The gap widens as you get into older age groups. Why is that do you think? Maybe there is something that many women tend to do at some point in their late 20s and 30s that takes focus away from their careers for a time and allows men to take the lead on earnings? Maybe something like raising a family? Is it taboo to bring that up? I don't know, probably, but many women do take time out of the workforce to raise kids and that does affect the progress of their careers when compared to men who have been working and progressing continuously. That's another FACT, even if for some bizarre reason were not supposed to acknowledge it.

[Guest MattP]

Because of the FACTS. For example the inequality in pay for men and women doing the same job.The inequality in the number of women and non-white men in directoral positions.

 

If you're saying it doesn't exist then you are misled or simply lieing.

 

Things are better than when Thracian was a boy and heading in a better direction but both sexism and racism exist in the UK.

 

FACTS? I'm sure I saw a fact last year that said in the younger 30's and 20's women were actually paid more than men?

 

edit: Moose has already said it, maybe you've been out the country too long FIF? It would explain your opinions of a Britain I and very few others seem to recognise now.

[Thracian]

Because of the FACTS. For example the inequality in pay for men and women doing the same job.The inequality in the number of women and non-white men in directoral positions.

 

If you're saying it doesn't exist then you are misled or simply lieing.

 

Things are better than when Thracian was a boy and heading in a better direction but both sexism and racism exist in the UK.

 

What facts? I could give you some facts about racism that would make you shudder but I won't because it will serve no purpose. 

 

But how can you possibly argue that things are better? There may be less publicly expressed racism against foreign incomers, partly because the law demands it, partly because the huge majority of incomers have integrated brilliantly into Britain and stand it's corner with most everyone else. 

 

But there is now the phenomena of massive anti-white racism from certain quarters - most of it conveniently ignored or denied to even exist, but which hardly existed at all when I was a lad. And there is far more cross-culture racism as well.

 

I'm not going to elaborate because it's all been said. 

 

But give me your arguments about pay inequality and the supposed lack of women in the boardroomby all means.

 

Because any woman can chair her own board if she wishes. My own son started his company with his wife as a fellow director close on 20 years back. The company grew to employ around 25 people and his wife played a major part in their twice gaining honourable mentions in their areas annual business of the year awards.

 

She showed there's absolutely nothing standing in the way of a woman's career progress in this country except her own needs, abilities experience, reliability and personality. Tick the boxes and if jobs aren't there for them they can, instead be masters of their own success.

 

There may be fewer women directors for perfectly understandable reasons - there may even be fewer women applicants - rather than for any discriminatory reasons.

 

Tell me this FIF. If you were running a company and a woman was the best applicant for a directors position or for head of section, why would you choose someone you believed to be weaker? It wouldn't make sense and might even put your own position in jeopardy. 

 

As for equal pay make sure your argument covers exactly that - not some being more equal than others. And don't forget to mention any worktime considerations that may be given so a working mum might drive her kids home from school each morning and night. Or perhaps work from home and for slightly fewer hours.

 

And does she take time out during school vacations with licence perhaps to make up as many hours as she can from home? The hours thing's a real minefield and not nearly as simple sometimes as people make out.

 

Again, why would a good employer ever wish to be unfair to a brilliant employee just because she's a woman? It makes no sense.I don't say it never happens but not where there's a good manager.Unhappy staff - especially ones with defendable grievances, are likely to be no damned use to anyone. 

[Thracian]

Couldn't be bothered to read your long post after the first sentence (and glimpsing the last).

 

You are clearly a man of a dying generation and your prejudices will only die with you.

 

What "prejudices" are those? 

 

The "prejudices" of helping a Sousse-based Tunisian Muslim student complete her Masters Degree in English over a three-year period, through the pain of a divorce and the worse pain of her mother being desperately poorly at the time. She now calls me her "dad" and will always be a daughter to me.

 

The "prejudices" that provided Ramadan assistance for a Sousse family who were living in a garage in the City despite the mother being desperately ill.  

 

The prejudices that financed another Tunisian mother's operation so that her daughter could complete her last term at university. 

 

Or the "prejudices" that paid for a 10-year-old Christian girl to fly to her mother in England from trouble-torn Nigeria after she was dropped off at the airport by her father but refused permission to fly alone to England and so had her ticket confiscated.

 

In the end a relative accompanied her and to this day she always says "thankyou" around Christmas. Her father died but her mum's now studying law and the little girl plans to be a doctor. She loves it here and I couldn't be more proud of her.          

[Alf Bentley]

In case anyone thought that I was talking out of my arse yesterday about Saudi Arabia potentially going bankrupt within 5 years....

 

Here's a link, and the source for the claim is the IMF: http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/25/investing/oil-prices-saudi-arabia-cash-opec-middle-east/?iid=EL

 

Of course, a lot can happen within 5 years: fiscal reform in Saudi; deterioration in relations between Iran and the West; rises in oil prices. However, there do seem to be a number of factors that could potentially keep oil prices low: reduced demand from China and other developing countries; extra supply of rival fuels like US shale gas; and the potential for Iran to significantly increase the global supply of oil, for which it has the capacity and the strategic motivation if Western sanctions continue to be removed.

 

Sorry about the delay. Too busy to check sources yesterday. 

[davieG]

Hmm the idea might be justifiable but the execution of it is a costly  shambles

 

 

 

 

Disability benefit assessments have doubled in cost to £579m a year but targets are still being missed, the National Audit Office has said.

The spending watchdog found the quality of the tests was also not improving despite significant changes.

Labour MP Meg Hillier, who chairs the public accounts committee, said the cost was "staggering" and sick and disabled people needed "a better deal".

The Department for Work and Pensions said it would look into the findings.

Disability charities said the assessment system was still failing claimants.

Problems 'exacerbated'

Health assessments for Employment and Support Allowance are carried out to ensure claimants are eligible for benefits.

Private provider Atos quit its contract in 2014 and was replaced last year by US firm Maximus.

The new contract requires an increased number of face-to-face assessments - with more staff needed to carry them out.

But the NAO said "recent performance shows the department [DWP] has not tackled - and may even have exacerbated" problems over waiting times and targets.

Expected savings to the welfare budget had been reduced from £1.1bn over the next three years to £400m, it said.

The report also said there had been a struggle to recruit enough specialist medical staff to meet demand, while rising salaries had contributed to the rise in the average cost of each assessment - from £115 to £190.

This meant it would cost £595m to carry out the 3.4 million assessments needed by the 2018-19.

Despite increasing the size of its performance management team, the DWP "continues to struggle with setting targets and requirements with clear evidence", it continued.

At least £76m of taxpayers' money had also been wasted by the failure to get a new IT system up and running - more than two years after it was supposed to be in place, the watchdog added.

Image copyrightPAImage captionIain Duncan Smith has defended the government's changes to the welfare system

Ms Hillier said: "The department's approach has been unclear, its targets untested and consistently missed and future delivery is under threat.

"With the annual cost of assessments now expected to rise to a staggering £579m in 2016-17, taxpayers have been left to foot the bill.

"The department needs to do more to ensure private providers deliver a better deal for sick and disabled people as assessments have a huge impact on their ability to access vital cash to live with dignity."

Ensure 'better deal'

The head of the NAO, Amyas Morse, said the DWP had "addressed some of its immediate operational issues in managing contracted-out health and disability assessments".

But he said the government needed to "take action to break a perpetuating cycle of optimistic targets, contractual underperformance and costly recovery".

A DWP spokesman said it would consider the report, adding: "We are determined to support more people into work and provide individuals who can't with the correct support that they need - the effective assessment of people's abilities is key to this."

Shadow minister for disabled people, Debbie Abrahams, said the report exposed a "shambles", adding "too many disabled people have been badly let down by these assessments".

And Dan Scorer, head of policy at the charity Mencap, said "people with a learning disability who rely on the support from benefits are still suffering from a system that fails to help the people it is designed for".

[Rincewind]

No its not true because the government  says s its not.

 

I grew up in a sexist household. My birth dad was one of the old types. 'A woman's place is in the home'  He never did anything in the house. Sat in his chair smoking and drinking tea which my mum had to make. She even did the decorating.

It was not until she met my stepdad after my dad died that things changed. She started work at a local WMC. He was completely different. He was raised with younger sisters who helped to raise. With him as soon as you finished tea or coffee he took it to the kitchen to was. He used to say we were lazy sods.

So we were the same years ago. Would people agree with feminists? It was not until the sixties that woman were receiving some sort of equality and later when equal pay came about. There are still men who think women should stay at home cooking and raising kids and they are not all foreign or immigrants. Ano not all immigrants are misogynists. .

[Voll Blau]

Downright bizarre some of the stick the BBC are getting for the Doughty exclusive. I like Corbyn but he keeps some very odd company.

[Thracian]

No its not true because the government  says s its not.

 

I grew up in a sexist household. My birth dad was one of the old types. 'A woman's place is in the home'  He never did anything in the house. Sat in his chair smoking and drinking tea which my mum had to make. She even did the decorating.

It was not until she met my stepdad after my dad died that things changed. She started work at a local WMC. He was completely different. He was raised with younger sisters who helped to raise. With him as soon as you finished tea or coffee he took it to the kitchen to was. He used to say we were lazy sods.

So we were the same years ago. Would people agree with feminists? It was not until the sixties that woman were receiving some sort of equality and later when equal pay came about. There are still men who think women should stay at home cooking and raising kids and they are not all foreign or immigrants. Ano not all immigrants are misogynists. .

 

You and your ists - what is this obsession with putting people in boxes and suggesting you know best how people should live their lives. You must real some gush. I've got a book for you next Christmas written by an old work colleague of mine from Peterborough days, Richard Littlejohn.

 

"Littlejohn's House of Fun" Thirteen Years of Labour Madness is as funny as it's unbelievable. I don't suppose it will change your thinking - but at least you can laugh at the people who've clearly had such influence on you.

 

Just as an aside many women went to work in the 60s, not to strike a blow for feminism, but to earn more money for the household and to help pay for things like mortgages. I warned at the time that they wouldn't really get much more money - that prices would soar and it would quickly require two incomes to fund the kind of lifestyle many dreamed of.        

 

My first house at that time - in Birstall - cost £5000 and belonged to a Leicester Mercury director. Now the same house would cost £200,000 and my youngest has just been quoted £250,000 for what amounts to a bombsite near London - a property that would have to be completely rebuilt.

Cars? Well the Ford Popular I bought at 17 was £140. My oldest has just paid 600 times that for his Tesla and it can't travel as far as my "Pop" before needing its battery charged. No wonder people need two wages now!

 

But who's to say what the neighbours should do. Stay at home, go to work, it's there choice and the luvvies of the Left should stay out of it given how awful a lot of their relationships seem to have turned out.

 

As for my own household it's simple. We play it by ear and do what we want at the time. There's plenty of wrong ways but no right way to bring up a family and certainly no need for Loony-Lefties to be holding anyone's hands with their wacky theories, their ists and isms and their all-to-wanting personal examples that too often signal what not to do rather than being enlightening in a positive way.                     

[Rincewind]

I do not put people in boxes. I do the opposite. I treat people as individuals. You cannot deny that the attitude  towards women was different years ago. I was referring to the post that said  the migrants were misogynists and  saying that men had the same attitude here  once. It is the same the world over.

Of course it does not excuse the actions but I do not think the ones not responsible including women and children should be punished. I believe in the concept  of being innocent until proven guilty which is not putting them in boxes. 

What is the obsession with ists and isms and thinking that believing in equality and fairness is a leftie thing. I believe in it because it is right not through any political bias.

[MooseBreath]

No its not true because the government says s its not.

I grew up in a sexist household. My birth dad was one of the old types. 'A woman's place is in the home' He never did anything in the house. Sat in his chair smoking and drinking tea which my mum had to make. She even did the decorating.

It was not until she met my stepdad after my dad died that things changed. She started work at a local WMC. He was completely different. He was raised with younger sisters who helped to raise. With him as soon as you finished tea or coffee he took it to the kitchen to was. He used to say we were lazy sods.

So we were the same years ago. Would people agree with feminists? It was not until the sixties that woman were receiving some sort of equality and later when equal pay came about. There are still men who think women should stay at home cooking and raising kids and they are not all foreign or immigrants. Ano not all immigrants are misogynists. .

FIF's claim that there is a gender pay gap isn't true when it comes to under 40s full time employees in the UK. That isn't 'more government lies' ken, it's just the truth.

But your description of sexism based on your childhood seems fair enough. FIF is around 15 to 20 years older than you so it was probably even worse way back when he was growing up. That has no doubt impacted on how you see things, but the fact is that neither of you have provided any evidence that modern day Britain is still a sexist country.

[Guest]

FIF's claim that there is a gender pay gap isn't true when it comes to under 40s full time employees in the UK. That isn't 'more government lies' ken, it's just the truth.

But your description of sexism based on your childhood seems fair enough. FIF is around 15 to 20 years older than you so it was probably even worse way back when he was growing up. That has no doubt impacted on how you see things, but the fact is that neither of you have provided any evidence that modern day Britain is still a sexist country.

 

Perhaps it's time I put you on ignore. You state crap all the time.

 

There are hundreds of sites where you can check the gender pay gap. Type it into google if you're allowed to during your break at McDonald's.

 

Here's the top link for you:

 

http://www.equalpayportal.co.uk/statistics/

 

The gender pay gap for all staff in the UK in 2013 was 19.7 per cent, as measured by hourly earnings for all employees.Dec 7, 2015

[Guest]

btw even the study that you are quoting states that men in their 30's out-earned women in their 30s by an average of £8775. 

[Guest MattP]

Surely the gender pay gap among elders will always be different unless you force companies to carry on paying those women for 10-15 years while they bring up children?

[MooseBreath]

Perhaps it's time I put you on ignore. You state crap all the time.

There are hundreds of sites where you can check the gender pay gap. Type it into google if you're allowed to during your break at McDonald's.

Here's the top link for you:

http://www.equalpayportal.co.uk/statistics/

The gender pay gap for all staff in the UK in 2013 was 19.7 per cent, as measured by hourly earnings for all employees.Dec 7, 2015

Under 40 is where it counts for obvious reasons explained above. There is no pay gap among under 40s full time employees. If anything, women are paid more.

If you can't handle bring proved wrong and are just going to attempt to insult me with McDonalds jokes then it's probably in your own interest to put me on ignore. You don't want to be getting yourself worked up.

[Guest MattP]

I grew up in a sexist household. My birth dad was one of the old types. 'A woman's place is in the home'  He never did anything in the house. Sat in his chair smoking and drinking tea which my mum had to make. She even did the decorating.

It was not until she met my stepdad after my dad died that things changed. She started work at a local WMC. He was completely different. He was raised with younger sisters who helped to raise. With him as soon as you finished tea or coffee he took it to the kitchen to was. He used to say we were lazy sods.

So we were the same years ago. Would people agree with feminists? It was not until the sixties that woman were receiving some sort of equality and later when equal pay came about. There are still men who think women should stay at home cooking and raising kids and they are not all foreign or immigrants. Ano not all immigrants are misogynists. .

 

If I'm going to judge whether Britain is a sexist society I'm sure you'll understand that it is going to be far more effective looking at wage, employment and all sorts of equality statistics from the last few years rather than take an example of your Dad sat on his couch doing nothing in 1972.

 

Downright bizarre some of the stick the BBC are getting for the Doughty exclusive. I like Corbyn but he keeps some very odd company.

 

Seamus Milne is genuinely the strangest man to ever reach any sort of high political office in Britain, he's the man pulling the strings, if I was a Labour supporter/MP I'd probably be trying to organise him falling under a bus very soon before he can do anymore damage.

 

The more I see of Corbyn the more I think he's actually a nice guy who is just so naive he finds it impossible to live in the real World, which is totally understandable given his upbringing. The guys around him like McDonnell, Milne and Fisher etc are just plain nasty fcukers though who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. The thought of these people actually running Great Britain should striker fear into any logical person.

[MooseBreath]

btw even the study that you are quoting states that men in their 30's out-earned women in their 30s by an average of £8775.

Including part time yes. That's comparing apples and oranges.

Men working part time are paid less than women working part time on average. Is that evidence of sexism too?

[Guest MattP]

In case anyone thought that I was talking out of my arse yesterday about Saudi Arabia potentially going bankrupt within 5 years....

 

Here's a link, and the source for the claim is the IMF: http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/25/investing/oil-prices-saudi-arabia-cash-opec-middle-east/?iid=EL

 

Of course, a lot can happen within 5 years: fiscal reform in Saudi; deterioration in relations between Iran and the West; rises in oil prices. However, there do seem to be a number of factors that could potentially keep oil prices low: reduced demand from China and other developing countries; extra supply of rival fuels like US shale gas; and the potential for Iran to significantly increase the global supply of oil, for which it has the capacity and the strategic motivation if Western sanctions continue to be removed.

 

Sorry about the delay. Too busy to check sources yesterday. 

 

Ironically given their attitudes to women, Saudi Arabia needs a Margaret Thatcher to implement serious market reform.

[Buce]

What "prejudices" are those?

The "prejudices" of helping a Sousse-based Tunisian Muslim student complete her Masters Degree in English over a three-year period, through the pain of a divorce and the worse pain of her mother being desperately poorly at the time. She now calls me her "dad" and will always be a daughter to me.

The "prejudices" that provided Ramadan assistance for a Sousse family who were living in a garage in the City despite the mother being desperately ill.

The prejudices that financed another Tunisian mother's operation so that her daughter could complete her last term at university.

Or the "prejudices" that paid for a 10-year-old Christian girl to fly to her mother in England from trouble-torn Nigeria after she was dropped off at the airport by her father but refused permission to fly alone to England and so had her ticket confiscated.

In the end a relative accompanied her and to this day she always says "thankyou" around Christmas. Her father died but her mum's now studying law and the little girl plans to be a doctor. She loves it here and I couldn't be more proud of her.

Is that what is meant by humble-brag?