The Politics Thread

[Guest MattP]

Is that what is meant by humble-brag?

 

Definitely.

 

Pretty good response though to being called a bigot though, I get the feeling Thrac is one of those guys who is a "doer" rather than an internet virtue signaller, I wish more people were the same.

[Buce]

Definitely.

Pretty good response though to being called a bigot though, I get the feeling Thrac is one of those guys who is a "doer" rather than an internet virtue signaller, I wish more people were the same.

He didn't seem to have a problem signalling his virtue in that post.

And I'm not suggesting Thrace is a racist - I'm more than happy to accept his word that he's not - but the old chestnut, how can I be racist, I've got black friends? is really not much of an argument.

[Guest MattP]

He didn't seem to have a problem signalling his virtue in that post.

And I'm not suggesting Thrace is a racist - I'm more than happy to accept his word that he's not - but the old chestnut, how can I be racist, I've got black friends is really not much of an argument.

 

He had to be pushed though, genuine virtue signallers start to tell us how wonderful their actions are when no one has even mentioned anything, like a political version of vegans.

 

Agree with you on second piint, no it isn't an argument and I don't really know why people use it.

[Alf Bentley]

Is that what is meant by humble-brag?

 

 

The Oxford Dictionaries site defines a humblebrag as "an ostensibly modest or self-deprecating statement whose actual purpose is to draw attention to something of which one is proud".

 

I would (ever so humbly) suggest that, while the second part of that phrase applies to Thracian's post, the first part does not.

He posted a series of rhetorical questions acting as thin veils for bragging without any humility whatsoever.

 

Of course, whether bragging or humility are good or bad things is a matter of opinion - often influenced by culture. The Americans often think that the Brits express too much false humility and too little pride.

 

He's bragging about actions worth bragging about, if you don't mind bragging. The fact that such bragging grates on me just shows how British I am and how unBritish Thracian is. 

[Guest]

Under 40 is where it counts for obvious reasons explained above. There is no pay gap among under 40s full time employees. If anything, women are paid more.

If you can't handle bring proved wrong and are just going to attempt to insult me with McDonalds jokes then it's probably in your own interest to put me on ignore. You don't want to be getting yourself worked up.

 

see below.

 

btw even the study that you are quoting states that men in their 30's out-earned women in their 30s by an average of £8775. 

 

Do you understand that people in their 30's are  UNDER 40?

[Guest]

Including part time yes. That's comparing apples and oranges.

Men working part time are paid less than women working part time on average. Is that evidence of sexism too?

 

It is gender inequality as is difference at any age.

 

You try to win arguments by picking only certain facts or certain articles.

 

I've gone to the article that you were quoting and quoted a massive difference in pay for under 40's. If you can't accept that you're wrong then don't post.

Is that what is meant by humble-brag?

 

Sounded a little suspect to me.

[Guest]

Definitely.

 

Pretty good response though to being called a bigot though, I get the feeling Thrac is one of those guys who is a "doer" rather than an internet virtue signaller, I wish more people were the same.

 

Or one could look back through his many many posts - if you have the energy.

[MooseBreath]

It is gender inequality as is difference at any age.

You try to win arguments by picking only certain facts or certain articles.

I've gone to the article that you were quoting and quoted a massive difference in pay for under 40's. If you can't accept that you're wrong then don't post.

Sounded a little suspect to me.

Not sure what "article" you're referring to? I'm referring the the latest ONS stats of which I downloaded the data and looked for myself. Suggest you do the same because what you've said is categorically incorrect.

[Thracian]

I do not put people in boxes. I do the opposite. I treat people as individuals. You cannot deny that the attitude  towards women was different years ago. I was referring to the post that said  the migrants were misogynists and  saying that men had the same attitude here  once. It is the same the world over.

Of course it does not excuse the actions but I do not think the ones not responsible including women and children should be punished. I believe in the concept  of being innocent until proven guilty which is not putting them in boxes. 

What is the obsession with ists and isms and thinking that believing in equality and fairness is a leftie thing. I believe in it because it is right not through any political bias.

 

 

 

People aren't equal and the world isn't fair. It's like wishing for the sun to rise in the West and go down in the East. Inequality and unfairness even have their merits. They can teach people not to be envious and to give their best whatever. Does that matter? Who knows in the great scheme of things? But they've sure steered me through a happy life. 

[Guest MattP]

The most high-profile casualty of Jeremy Corbyn’s purge of moderates from Labour’s shadow cabinet has launched a savage attack on the party’s leadership.

Michael Dugher condemned Mr Corbyn’s closest aides as a “bunch of far-left, antiwar former communists” in thrall to Ken Livingstone, their previous employer at City Hall, London.

In his first newspaper interview since being dismissed as shadow culture secretary, Mr Dugher says that the former mayor of London is pulling the strings of Mr Corbyn’s leadership.

He claims that he was sacked partly for criticising Mr Livingstone’s “moral equivalence bulls**t” over the 7/7 bombers. The former mayor has said that the bombers “gave their lives” and that Tony Blair had ignored advice that military action in Iraq would make Britain a target for terrorism.

Kevan Jones, one of three frontbenchers who quit in protest at Mr Corbyn’s reshuffle, joined the criticism of Mr Livingstone’s influence. “He seems to have free rein to say and insult whoever he likes without any real sanction,” Mr Jones said.

Mr Livingstone had to apologise to Mr Jones, a former shadow defence minister who has spoken about his battle with depression, after he said that he “might need psychiatric help”. The row was one of a number caused by Mr Livingstone, who is co-chairing a defence review that is likely to open the way for Labour to ditch its support for a replacement to the Trident nuclear deterrent.

On Thursday, Mr Livingstone was rebuked by the Labour leadership after he said that the party would review Britain’s membership of Nato.

The promotion of Emily Thornberry, a Trident opponent, to the defence portfolio was widely seen as a key part of Mr Corbyn’s strategy. Asked whether she had been given the post to make ditching the deterrent easier, Ms Thornberry claimed yesterday to be unaware of Mr Corbyn’s reasoning.

“I don’t know why Jeremy gave me this job, but I know that I’m really honoured to be doing it and hugely looking forward to meeting up with people and listening to what people have to say,” she told ITV News.

Labour MPs, furious at the dismissal and demotion of critics in the reshuffle, plan to confront Mr Corbyn at a meeting on Monday. The leader is being urged by some aides to duck the clash.

Mr Dugher claims that Mr Livingstone was repeatedly given a “free pass” for remarks that would lead to others being expelled. “If you look at the people around Jeremy most of them have been in the employment of Livingstone,” he says. “I think the truth is this leadership team is dancing on the strings of Ken Livingstone — and nobody elected Ken Livingstone to be leader of the Labour party last September.”

Mr Livingstone’s influence marks a remarkable turnaround for a man blocked from running as Labour’s candidate in the first London mayoral race. He was said by Mr Blair to have almost pushed the party “over the edge of the cliff into extinction during the 1980s”. A strong critic of New Labour, “Red Ken” has backed many of the same causes as Mr Corbyn, notably unilateral nuclear disarmament, during a career in which he has been leader of the Greater London Council, MP for Brent East and victor as an independent candidate in the capital’s mayoral race in 2000.

Reviving memories of the factional fights of the 1980s, Mr Livingstone has said that MPs rebelling against the Labour leader should face reselection.

In a rare glimpse of the workings of the shadow cabinet, Mr Dugher, who was Gordon Brown’s communications chief, reveals that immigration has been discussed only once by the Labour front bench since Mr Corbyn became leader.

“There’s a conspiracy of silence about that. Ed Miliband recognised that Labour had a huge problem with it and he engaged on the issue,” he says. “In the final analysis, people didn’t trust us — just as with the economy — they didn’t think we were for real.

“They thought that we were saying it because we had to say it but our heart wasn’t in it. It wasn’t the sort of thing that polite dinner parties in north London liked to talk about. But now it’s even worse — we’ve stopped talking about it again.”

[Guest MattP]

Dan Jarvis interview in the Guardian today as well, he says he might not stand for election and could even leave the party if they continue on the current anti war, anti trident path.

That would be as big a bonus for the Conservatives as anything I could think of.

[Strokes]

Dan Jarvis interview in the Guardian today as well, he says he might not stand for election and could even leave the party if they continue on the current anti war, anti trident path.

That would be as big a bonus for the Conservatives as anything I could think of.

A shame for politics though, I know it's amusing watching labour turn into such a shambles but you have to wonder what long term affects this will have on British politics if it continues.

[Guest MattP]

Yeah I agree with that.

If someone as intelligent and articulate (not to mention the life experience he brings) as Dan Jarvis doesn't seek to be elected something is wrong.

[Dr The Singh]

Yeah I agree with that.

If someone as intelligent and articulate (not to mention the life experience he brings) as Dan Jarvis doesn't seek to be elected something is wrong.

I love it, it gives people like me an avenue to join Corbyn's cabinet

[Dr The Singh]

He didn't seem to have a problem signalling his virtue in that post.

And I'm not suggesting Thrace is a racist - I'm more than happy to accept his word that he's not - but the old chestnut, how can I be racist, I've got black friends? is really not much of an argument.

Me and Thrac have shared many a beer, and I would say he is my friend. He is no racist, maybe abit nieve, but he is very much like me, calling spade a spade.

[Guest MattP]

Oh and FIF you have convinced me that the gender pay gap does exist now.

I found out this morning that a male engineer makes 1,900% more money than a professional online female activist.

[Alf Bentley]

The most high-profile casualty of Jeremy Corbyn’s purge of moderates from Labour’s shadow cabinet has launched a savage attack on the party’s leadership.

Michael Dugher condemned Mr Corbyn’s closest aides as a “bunch of far-left, antiwar former communists” in thrall to Ken Livingstone, their previous employer at City Hall, London.

[...]

“If you look at the people around Jeremy most of them have been in the employment of Livingstone,” he says. “I think the truth is this leadership team is dancing on the strings of Ken Livingstone — and nobody elected Ken Livingstone to be leader of the Labour party last September.”

 

 

Labour "dancing on the strings" of Red Ken? Sadly, the news for Labour is much worse than that: the news is that Red Ken is NOT running the Labour Party, despite what that bitter little non-entity Dugher might see ("who he?" - Private Eye).

 

Whatever you (or I, to a much lesser extent) might think of Livingstone's politics, Labour would be in a much better position if he had been elected leader instead of Corbyn. He might provoke hatred from some (mainly those who hate Labour anyway), but he does have an understanding of the need for tactics and strategy, for an element of populist appeal - and the ability to win elections (he was elected Mayor of London standing as an independent against Labour and Tories, after all).

 

Labour's current chaos, lack of clarity, and apparent lack of policy priorities, tactics or long-term strategy tells me that Red Ken is having very little influence. 

 

As an approximation, Red Ken is the lefty equivalent of Boris (eccentric, gaffe-prone, but with shrewd political sense), whereas Corbyn is the lefty equivalent of IDS (1 or 2 decent ideas, but lacking in shrewdness and not an election-winner).

 

 

Dan Jarvis interview in the Guardian today as well, he says he might not stand for election and could even leave the party if they continue on the current anti war, anti trident path.

That would be as big a bonus for the Conservatives as anything I could think of.

 

 

You're quoting the Grauniad a lot recently, Matt. Come over to the dark side. Let your inner pinko free, Matt. 

 

I only get it on a Saturday these days. I'm enough of a saddo to enjoy a Saturday morning with the Family section and 1 or 2 of the columnists (Deborah Orr - Mrs. Will Self - is usually good).

[Guest MattP]

Very fair point of Livingstone, it's hard to knock anyone who wins a large election as an independent.

I have read of the Guardian pretty much every day now, know your enemy and all that.

What's your views on Galloway? Few journos on Twitter saying he's ready to move back into the party and Corbyn is open to it, personally think it's a massive risk.

[Claridge]

He didn't seem to have a problem signalling his virtue in that post.

And I'm not suggesting Thrace is a racist - I'm more than happy to accept his word that he's not - but the old chestnut, how can I be racist, I've got black friends? is really not much of an argument.

Everyone has some racism in them. I have heard racist comments from white, black ,brown etc...

Some of the worse people  I have ever met are the virtuous do gooders who claim not to be racist.

[Bettsj2]

Very fair point of Livingstone, it's hard to knock anyone who wins a large election as an independent.

I have read of the Guardian pretty much every day now, know your enemy and all that.

What's your views on Galloway? Few journos on Twitter saying he's ready to move back into the party and Corbyn is open to it, personally think it's a massive risk.

That would be the final nail in the parties coffin if they let him back in and let Jarvis leave.

[Alf Bentley]

What's your views on Galloway? Few journos on Twitter saying he's ready to move back into the party and Corbyn is open to it, personally think it's a massive risk.

 

 

I agree with you on Galloway. Magnificent rhetorician, but a cynical opportunist demagogue with no respect for democracy. 

 

A man who has the potential to cause a lot of trouble with a little bit of power. Labour is well shot of him and Corbyn shouldn't touch him with a barge pole. Would be very surprised if he did.

[davieG]

The chairwoman of a Labour pressure group has resigned from a party policy review group because she feels it is impossible to work with the leadership.

Alison McGovern told the BBC the shadow chancellor had suggested the group she chairs, Progress, co-ordinated the resignation of three shadow ministers.

John McDonnell also accused Progress of having a "hard-right agenda", Ms McGovern said.

Labour said the review she said she was quitting had not yet been launched.

'Backed into corner'

Ms McGovern's resignation comes after junior shadow ministers Jonathan Reynolds, Stephen Doughty, and Kevan Jones quit on Wednesday in protest at Labour's reshuffle this week.

The resignation of Mr Doughty on BBC Two's Daily Politics led to an official complaint from Labour, who accused the BBC of orchestrating the resignation for maximum "political impact" - something the BBC denies.

Ms McGovern, the Wirrall South MP, said Mr McDonnell had asked her to take part in the Labour's policy review on child poverty and combating inequality.

Image captionJohn McDonnell said the shadow ministers who resigned came from a "narrow right wing clique within the Labour party"

The pair were due to meet for the second time to discuss the subject on Wednesday, but Ms McGovern claims Mr McDonnell was late because he was making media appearances.

She told BBC's Sunday Politics: "So I'm there waiting to meet him to talk about it and all the while he'd gone to the TV studio to call the organisation that I am chair of 'hard-right Conservative', of having a hard-right Conservative agenda. That's not OK."

"We are all Labour members and we believe in having a Labour government - that's what we are, nothing more nothing less.

"And, as I say, I don't want to be on the telly talking about this but I have been backed into a corner and I have got no other choice now but to stand up and say 'this is who we are' and we should just get on with the business of getting a Labour government."

Progress is broadly seen as the Blairite wing of the party.

On Wednesday Mr McDonnell told BBC Radio Two's Jeremy Vine programme: "We've had a few junior members resign today and of course that's their right.

"But they do all come from a narrow right-wing clique within the Labour Party based around the organisation Progress.

"I don't believe they have ever accepted Jeremy's mandate."

A Labour Party spokesman said: "Alison McGovern was invited to a discussion on child poverty but the initiative has not been launched or confirmed.

"She is resigning from something that doesn't exist."

[Guest]

I wonder what inequality they are supposed to be combatting when none exists in the UK.

[MooseBreath]

I wonder what inequality they are supposed to be combatting when none exists in the UK.

There is no inequality?

[Guest]

There is no inequality?

 That's what you and Mattp said.

 

wood and trees comes to mind.