Rogstanley Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 10 minutes ago, Strokes said: The leave campaign did not predict anything for the period of triggering article 50 and leaving the EU that I can recall. Feel free to correct me though. No you’re probably right. They produced very little in terms of proper analysis. Their campaign was based predominantly on populist sound bites that were just vague enough so that they couldn’t ever be directly judged. Leave played a blinder in terms of manipulative, cynical exploitation, i’ll give them that in spades.
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 16 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: I would say the following, at the end of the executive summary is a more sensible part to quote: ”In conclusion, the analysis in this document shows that a vote to leave the EU would result in a marked deterioration in economic prosperity and security.” Hard to say that hasn’t happened to be honest, what with the crash in the pound (recovering now thanks to it looking like we’ll avoid a hard crash brexit), and plummeting wages. Ultimately getting the details of exactly how the consequences were going to play out was always going to be a tough ask. They modelled it and came to the conclusion that the result would be negative. In reality, that’s correct, results have been negative. Compare that to the predictions of the leave campaign, things like we’d be building a new hospital every week, which have all turned out to be wrong not just in the detail but from an overall perspective as well, and it’s clear that the arguments set out by the remainers have proven to be more accurate. Whilst reading up today I noticed that if you ignore everything that has happened since the vote aside from the drop in currency, the Remain side got it spot on. I'll give them that. Ignore it all and they didn't put a foot wrong.
Sharpe's Fox Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 If we could move away from the never ending minor constitutional wankfest and focus on social justice for a sec the leader for Haringey council has resigned after attempts to social cleanse a local authority estate and not tell the residents. Good news for local democracy and shows how pressure can force change. 1
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: No you’re probably right. They produced very little in terms of proper analysis. Their campaign was based predominantly on populist sound bites that were just vague enough so that they couldn’t ever be directly judged. Leave played a blinder in terms of manipulative, cynical exploitation, i’ll give them that in spades. Vote Leave wasn't supported by those who were running the country so they couldn't really promise anything, they weren't able to. It's why we should really have decided it in a general election rather than a plebiscite. The Remain side could as they had the Chancellor and the PM on board.
Strokes Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 Just now, Rogstanley said: No you’re probably right. They produced very little in terms of proper analysis. Their campaign was based predominantly on populist sound bites that were just vague enough so that they couldn’t ever be directly judged. Leave played a blinder in terms of manipulative, cynical exploitation, i’ll give them that in spades. Leave were a campaign group who would not be in charge of what happened when the vote was passed. I’m not sure what else they could have done? The government should have produced and released honest reports on both outcomes and its intentions if it didn’t go their way. Maybe if your saviour had got behind the remain campaign he might of encouraged to youth turnout.
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 2 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: If we could move away from the never ending minor constitutional wankfest and focus on social justice for a sec the leader for Haringey council has resigned after attempts to social cleanse a local authority estate and not tell the residents. Good news for local democracy and shows how pressure can force change. Hasn't virtually every single Labour council in the country sent a letter to the NEC demanding this sort of thing stops? Taken control from local councillors to a central body is a pretty huge step. What's the point if electing Labour locally if decisions will be out of their hands?
Rogstanley Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 5 minutes ago, MattP said: Whilst reading up today I noticed that if you ignore everything that has happened since the vote aside from the drop in currency, the Remain side got it spot on. I'll give them that. Ignore it all and they didn't put a foot wrong. What other things would you have expected me to pick up on?
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 30 January 2018 Author Posted 30 January 2018 8 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: No you’re probably right. They produced very little in terms of proper analysis. Their campaign was based predominantly on populist sound bites that were just vague enough so that they couldn’t ever be directly judged. Leave played a blinder in terms of manipulative, cynical exploitation, i’ll give them that in spades. Name me an election that wasn’t won on populist sound bites? Its also a good tactic to be vague - it allows wiggle room when you come to implement. The Leave campaign was a work of genius... especially when compared to the Remain one.
Rogstanley Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 6 minutes ago, MattP said: Vote Leave wasn't supported by those who were running the country so they couldn't really promise anything, they weren't able to. It's why we should really have decided it in a general election rather than a plebiscite. The Remain side could as they had the Chancellor and the PM on board. Promises =/= predictions There was absolutely nothing stopping leave from making predictions. Leavers like Patrick Minford did just that.
Rogstanley Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 7 minutes ago, Strokes said: Leave were a campaign group who would not be in charge of what happened when the vote was passed. I’m not sure what else they could have done? The government should have produced and released honest reports on both outcomes and its intentions if it didn’t go their way. Maybe if your saviour had got behind the remain campaign he might of encouraged to youth turnout. As above
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: What other things would you have expected me to pick up on? The immediate recession and 500,000 job losses? Don't tell me, they in reality happened. But they didn't really. But when you look at it they did in a way and with that the remain side were right. Now look at that bus. Edited 30 January 2018 by MattP
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 30 January 2018 Author Posted 30 January 2018 8 minutes ago, MattP said: Vote Leave wasn't supported by those who were running the country so they couldn't really promise anything, they weren't able to. It's why we should really have decided it in a general election rather than a plebiscite. The Remain side could as they had the Chancellor and the PM on board. 8 minutes ago, Strokes said: Leave were a campaign group who would not be in charge of what happened when the vote was passed. I’m not sure what else they could have done? The government should have produced and released honest reports on both outcomes and its intentions if it didn’t go their way. Maybe if your saviour had got behind the remain campaign he might of encouraged to youth turnout. Although these comments hold an element of truth, it’s also worth noting there wasn’t anything stopping either Leave campaign painting a picture of what future it wanted for the UK and identifying potential solutions to difficult stumbling blocks like the Ireland issue. That they chose not to was probably as part of a lesson learned from Alex Sammond and the Scottish Referendum when he tried to answer the currency question.
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 3 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Promises =/= predictions There was absolutely nothing stopping leave from making predictions. Leavers like Patrick Minford did just that. Unfortunately we couldn't as Cameron and Gideon still claimed they would be staying even in the event of a leave vote.
Sharpe's Fox Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 3 minutes ago, MattP said: Hasn't virtually every single Labour council in the country sent a letter to the NEC demanding this sort of thing stops? Taken control from local councillors to a central body is a pretty huge step. What's the point if electing Labour locally if decisions will be out of their hands? The HDV had no mandate to try and regenerate [social cleanse] the area as no councillor was elected on a manifesto to so. Contrary to your belief whatever the NEC recommended to the council they still have no power, you should support how a campaign group run by local residents, not Trotskyite militants, protected its community by lobbying elected officials. But that doesn’t feed into an anti left narrative.
Guest Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 2 minutes ago, MattP said: The immediate recession and 500,000 job losses? Don't tell me, they in reality happened. But they didn't really. But when you look at it they did in a way and with the remain were right. Now look at that bus. The recession didn't happen but we went from top of g7 growth to bottom. There also is a recession in construction. We're holding up as soft Brexit seems to be the direction of travel but if you got your hard Brexit we'd be in freefall. The success of vote leave was in turning otherwise normal voters into swivel-eyed fundamentalists.
Strokes Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 1 minute ago, DJ Barry Hammond said: Although these comments hold an element of truth, it’s also worth noting there wasn’t anything stopping either Leave campaign painting a picture of what future it wanted for the UK and identifying potential solutions to difficult stumbling blocks like the Ireland issue. That they chose not to was probably as part of a lesson learned from Alex Sammond and the Scottish Referendum when he tried to answer the currency question. Yeah I do agree the Irish border issue was something the cynically ignored and that something although had been pointed out to me, I had believed to be less significant than it is.
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 2 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: The HDV had no mandate to try and regenerate [social cleanse] the area as no councillor was elected on a manifesto to so. Contrary to your belief whatever the NEC recommended to the council they still have no power, you should support how a campaign group run by local residents, not Trotskyite militants, protected its community by lobbying elected officials. But that doesn’t feed into an anti left narrative. I think they should have a local referendum to settle the issue. That's proper democracy.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 30 January 2018 Author Posted 30 January 2018 4 minutes ago, MattP said: I think they should have a local referendum to settle the issue. That's proper democracy. Sacasum? Yeah has to be sarcasm! Vote Quimby!
Rogstanley Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 11 minutes ago, MattP said: The immediate recession and 500,000 job losses? Don't tell me, they in reality happened. But they didn't really. But when you look at it they did in a way and with that the remain side were right. Now look at that bus. You said “if you ignore everything that has happened since the vote”. What else has happened that you would expect me to pick up on?
Rogstanley Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 12 minutes ago, MattP said: Unfortunately we couldn't as Cameron and Gideon still claimed they would be staying even in the event of a leave vote. This is ridiculous. You don’t have to be in power to make predictions.
Strokes Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 16 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: This is ridiculous. You don’t have to be in power to make predictions. I predict the next account you have on this forum, will be just as obnoxious as the last seven.
foxinexile Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, MattP said: So happy that people voted leave so these lies were exposed. Cameron, Gideon and all the MP's who lined up behind them unthinkingly deserved to be shown up. In the interest of offering a little balance, the Vote Leave campaign sent out their own "Project Fear" message that Turkey (and 76 million Turkish people) would be one of five new countries joining the EU. You can find this falsehood on their website still: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html We all know there we lies and inconsistencies on both sides of the referendum campaign. And just as the then-government sent out false statements, so did those who were not connected to the government but campaigned to leave the EU, and campaigned to gain people's votes with lies. I look forward to you calling for the leaders of the Leave campaign to be shown up too. All in the name of balance of course. Edited 30 January 2018 by foxinexile
Rogstanley Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 (edited) Right wing terrorist tries to explain his way out of trouble by saying "a guy called Dave" was driving the van that crashed into and killed people in London last year. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42875216 Oh well if it was Dave driving we better let this guy go then. Also says his original targets were Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan. Hard to avoid the conclusion that the relentless hate-filled criticism of Corbyn and Khan from the current government, who really ought to be concentrating on doing their ****ing job, contributed significantly to this man's mindset. Blood on the tory's hands. Edited 30 January 2018 by Rogstanley 2
Strokes Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 3 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Right wing terrorist tries to explain his way out of trouble by saying "a guy called Dave" was driving the van that crashed into and killed people in London last year. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42875216 Oh well if it was Dave driving we better let this guy go then. Also says his original targets were Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan. Hard to avoid the conclusion that the relentless hate-criticism of Corbyn and Khan from the current government, who really ought to be concentrating on doing their ****ing job, contributed significantly to this man's mindset. Blood on the tory's hands. Maybe Dave was his other personality, if that’s possible. Can you have multiple personalities operating at the same time in one human? How are you anyway? 1
Webbo Posted 30 January 2018 Posted 30 January 2018 9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Right wing terrorist tries to explain his way out of trouble by saying "a guy called Dave" was driving the van that crashed into and killed people in London last year. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42875216 Oh well if it was Dave driving we better let this guy go then. Also says his original targets were Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan. Hard to avoid the conclusion that the relentless hate-filled criticism of Corbyn and Khan from the current government, who really ought to be concentrating on doing their ****ing job, contributed significantly to this man's mindset. Blood on the tory's hands. and your criticism of the tories is so measured and polite? Pull your trousers up colin, you're talking out your arse. 1
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