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DJ Barry Hammond

Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

By DJ Barry Hammond, in General Chat

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Have a guess?

I haven't seen anything to suggest labour itself is the issue. Corbyn himself has made some very strong statements against that sort of thing.

 

Perhaps there are more dickheads around this issue on the left, I don't know. Perhaps disagreement with settlement policies gets conflated, I think it does on occasion but don't know enough to say how much conflation goes on.

 

I'd like some politically neutral view on this as too often it's treated as a game - last year labour were accused of anti-Semitism when an American-Jewish speaker - outside of the conference - gave a talk about freedom of speech and individual sentences were taken out of context. That isn't a serious response to an important issue.

 

If it is really an issue it needs facing down but whenever you read these reports they seem politicised. Let's face it, the right has it's issues with racism but they don't seem to involve the same finger pointing or blame of a party.

 

I genuinely don't know why that is and why the labour party itself is seen as - or even if it is - the problem?

Innovindil

Innovindil

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I haven't seen anything to suggest labour itself is the issue. Corbyn himself has made some very strong statements against that sort of thing.

 

Perhaps there are more dickheads around this issue on the left, I don't know. Perhaps disagreement with settlement policies gets conflated, I think it does on occasion but don't know enough to say how much conflation goes on.

 

I'd like some politically neutral view on this as too often it's treated as a game - last year labour were accused of anti-Semitism when an American-Jewish speaker - outside of the conference - gave a talk about freedom of speech and individual sentences were taken out of context. That isn't a serious response to an important issue.

 

If it is really an issue it needs facing down but whenever you read these reports they seem politicised. Let's face it, the right has it's issues with racism but they don't seem to involve the same finger pointing or blame of a party.

 

I genuinely don't know why that is and why the labour party itself is seen as - or even if it is - the problem?

You sodding what mate. The amount of times I've been called a racist for voting for Brexit is unreal. 

Strokes

Strokes

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

You sodding what mate. The amount of times I've been called a racist for voting for Brexit is unreal. 

That is literally the only reason I bought this up. The data is by the same people who noted the spike in racism after brexit and everybody who voted leave was then damned. I just thought it was worth bringing up, to see if things were different when the bottle is respun.

Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted
37 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

You sodding what mate. The amount of times I've been called a racist for voting for Brexit is unreal. 

 

21 minutes ago, Strokes said:

That is literally the only reason I bought this up. The data is by the same people who noted the spike in racism after brexit and everybody who voted leave was then damned. I just thought it was worth bringing up, to see if things were different when the bottle is respun.

Brexit wasn't a party thing though - UKIP aside. 

For what it's worth, I'm not actually against the idea of immigration reform at all. And in sure large numbers of leave voters for whom immigration was a key issue have similar, sensible and rational thoughts on the issue. 

But you'd have to have your head in the sand if you tried to deny that there are significant numbers of leave voters who go further than that. Particularly the older ones and those not as able to reason intelligently. We've all seen videos going round of outright racism towards EU nationals straight after the vote. I think there is a fairly significant proportion of racists within society, still. And it's pretty obvious that racists would have voted leave. That doesn't mean everybody that voted leave is a racist, however.

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
41 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

You sodding what mate. The amount of times I've been called a racist for voting for Brexit is unreal. 

Absolutely incredible they don't see it isn't it?

 

Although does anyone really think most Labour supporters give a toss about anti-semitism? If you do you'v been living under a rock since Corbyn got elected. 

Strokes

Strokes

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

Brexit wasn't a party thing though - UKIP aside. 

For what it's worth, I'm not actually against the idea of immigration reform at all. And in sure large numbers of leave voters for whom immigration was a key issue have similar, sensible and rational thoughts on the issue. 

But you'd have to have your head in the sand if you tried to deny that there are significant numbers of leave voters who go further than that. Particularly the older ones and those not as able to reason intelligently. We've all seen videos going round of outright racism towards EU nationals straight after the vote. I think there is a fairly significant proportion of racists within society, still. And it's pretty obvious that racists would have voted leave. That doesn't mean everybody that voted leave is a racist, however.

I don’t think it is a significant proportion, the figures whilst increasing are still incredibly low. 

Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Strokes said:

I don’t think it is a significant proportion, the figures whilst increasing are still incredibly low. 

I suppose there's degrees isn't there?

And it depends where you are.

Edited by Guest
Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Strokes said:

I don’t think it is a significant proportion, the figures whilst increasing are still incredibly low. 

Still makes me laugh when you get accused of being "UKIP" just because you voted to leave.

 

Most votes UKIP ever got was was about 3 million, 17.4 million voted to leave.

 

The only thing weirder is guys like @toddybad voting to stay in the Thatcherite club whilst then preaching socialism. 

DJ Barry Hammond

DJ Barry Hammond

Posted
  • Author
Posted
6 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Maybe because some of us have work to do?

 

 

 

Well that’s certainly not my excuse. 

 

On a different tangent, just seen the news about Darren Osborne (not the Hollyoaks character) and can’t believe ‘Dave’ is going to get away scot free. 

DJ Barry Hammond

DJ Barry Hammond

Posted
  • Author
Posted
3 hours ago, Strokes said:

That is literally the only reason I bought this up. The data is by the same people who noted the spike in racism after brexit and everybody who voted leave was then damned. I just thought it was worth bringing up, to see if things were different when the bottle is respun.

 

This comment seems to suggest antisemitism is purely a left wing problem, yet whilst I concede there have been some worrying instances emanating from that side of politics in recent history, to suggest its solely a problem on that side of the fence wouldn’t be true would it? 

 

Thought this article (sorry, not Guardian) has some thought provoking virtue to it in relation;

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/observations/2017/01/anti-semitism-right-wing-problem

Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, MattP said:

Still makes me laugh when you get accused of being "UKIP" just because you voted to leave.

 

Most votes UKIP ever got was was about 3 million, 17.4 million voted to leave.

 

The only thing weirder is guys like @toddybad voting to stay in the Thatcherite club whilst then preaching socialism. 

We've both discussed the fact that right and left both voted against their interests in the referendum. How pulling out of free markets and free trade is conservative I've no idea. And no, we won't replace it with deals with Peru. Conservative was the name for a reason. 

Strokes

Strokes

Posted
Posted
41 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

This comment seems to suggest antisemitism is purely a left wing problem, yet whilst I concede there have been some worrying instances emanating from that side of politics in recent history, to suggest its solely a problem on that side of the fence wouldn’t be true would it? 

 

Thought this article (sorry, not Guardian) has some thought provoking virtue to it in relation;

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/observations/2017/01/anti-semitism-right-wing-problem

I’m not even reading that article because I’m not suggesting all anti semites come from the left. I’m drawing parallel with the EU referendum and racism. Unless you believe that all racists voted leave?

Buce

Buce

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Strokes said:

I’m not even reading that article because I’m not suggesting all anti semites come from the left. I’m drawing parallel with the EU referendum and racism. Unless you believe that all racists voted leave?

 

I think you're being a bit touchy with this, Strokes. I certainly know you well enough to know you're not a racist, but I think it reasonable to suggest that those who are are much more likely to have been motivated to vote leave.

 

Think of it like this - all Rolls Royces are cars, not all cars are Rolls Royces.

Edited by Buce
Strokes

Strokes

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I think you're being a bit touchy with this, Strokes. I certainly know you well enough to know you're not a racist, but I think it reasonable to suggest that those who are are much more likely to have been motivated to vote leave.

.

Think of it like this - all Rolls Royces are cars, not all cars are Rolls Royces.

I think you are reading too much into this, I’m not trying to prove I’m not racist or that anyone here is supporting antisemitism.

 

The two things are very similar, both the anti Semitic hate crime rise and the racist hate crime rise. My point, which has always been the same, is by taking the figures as a percentage it makes it sound like a huge problem but we were starting from a very low place.

If you only have 1 crime a committed a year but then 1 year you have two crime, it has risen by 100% but you still don’t have high crime.

 

We come down hard on racists in this country and rightly so, even casual racism gets challenged regularly. For such a diverse and multicultural place the numbers are very low and it’s only a tiny minority who hold serious prejudice. I was just mostly trolling to see what the reaction was and to give a few a taste of their own medicine tbh.

foxinexile

foxinexile

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Strokes said:

I’m not even reading that article because I’m not suggesting all anti semites come from the left. I’m drawing parallel with the EU referendum and racism. Unless you believe that all racists voted leave?

I mentioned it a while ago, that whilst waiting to be served at a bar in Leeds, I got told to "**** off back to Poland" (despite actually being born in Leicester!). This happened in August 2016, just after the referendum. The guy who said that was being pretty racist in my opinion (and being a ****!). But to assume he voted Leave (let alone having enough brain cells to vote in the first place) would have been the completely wrong assumption to make.

Jo Cox's killer was not a Leave supporter, he was a deranged lunatic; "hate crimes" after the referendum weren't committed by Leave voters, they were done by opportunistic scum.

From the people I've ever talked to about their vote, many reasons have been mentioned, but very few raised immigration as a reason though. Ironically, Theresa May seems to be driving the issue of immigration the most (keeping good company with Farage!), and trying to attach it to the "will" of the British people, whilst clearly doing it to placate members of her own party.

But even as the most ardent europhile I know, even I can see very clearly that Brexit was not a racist vote. And to assume or to believe so takes us, as a country, into dangerous territory. I'd hope Remain voters would make this clear in their opposition to Brexit. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be the case as often as it should.

  • Like 1
Rogstanley

Rogstanley

Posted
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, foxinexile said:

I mentioned it a while ago, that whilst waiting to be served at a bar in Leeds, I got told to "**** off back to Poland" (despite actually being born in Leicester!). This happened in August 2016, just after the referendum. The guy who said that was being pretty racist in my opinion (and being a ****!). But to assume he voted Leave (let alone having enough brain cells to vote in the first place) would have been the completely wrong assumption to make.

Jo Cox's killer was not a Leave supporter, he was a deranged lunatic; "hate crimes" after the referendum weren't committed by Leave voters, they were done by opportunistic scum.

From the people I've ever talked to about their vote, many reasons have been mentioned, but very few raised immigration as a reason though. Ironically, Theresa May seems to be driving the issue of immigration the most (keeping good company with Farage!), and trying to attach it to the "will" of the British people, whilst clearly doing it to placate members of her own party.

But even as the most ardent europhile I know, even I can see very clearly that Brexit was not a racist vote. And to assume or to believe so takes us, as a country, into dangerous territory. I'd hope Remain voters would make this clear in their opposition to Brexit. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be the case as often as it should.

All the surveys pointed to immigration being the most important factor among leave voters. When pushed, many leavers who claim to have voted based on other reasons seem to have a very poor understanding of their own argument. For example, many leavers who claimed that escaping EU law was important to them can’t describe the function of even one EU law and certainly can’t come up with a list of EU laws they don’t like. It’s definitely wrong to say all leavers are racist but to pretend there isn’t a lot of racism in their ranks in naive, and I suspect a degree of xenophobia is fairly common while prejudice based on culture  and feelings of cultural superiority is endemic.

Edited by Rogstanley
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