Strokes Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 Also buce, under the terms of the human rights laws we are not able to deport asylum seekers back to their home nations due to fears of persecution I believe. This is an obvious reason why Europe is desirable, we are free to remove this right if things become an issue. Which would make us less desirable than France for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 Just now, Strokes said: Sorry, is that process an EU obligation or an international one? An international one. Once they are in out territory, they are our problem - there is nowhere to send them back to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxinexile Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 2 hours ago, Strokes said: What do you think they can just send boats full of migrants over here? P&O will be stacked out ferrying them to Dover and there would be nothing we can do? How come all these migrants don't just catch a ferry from holland or Belgium then where we don't have border posts? If it's that easy? Migrants do attempt to cross from Holland and Belgium into the UK (I think the figure from Holland in 2016 was around 500) but there are reasons why France is seen as the "soft" point for crossing - one of which is that it represents the closest crossing point, just 21 miles to Dover in a relatively straight line. The number attempting to cross from Calais is a lot more than Holland and Belgium (thousands, not hundreds) and it has been a point of attempted crossing for years, going back to the Sangatte camp in the late 90's. This is the reason the UK border force has been able to at least attempt to control our borders from France. But as I said, after Brexit control of our borders will exclusively be ours - just not from within another EU country as we are currently able to do. The irony of that appears to be missed by many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Strokes said: Also buce, under the terms of the human rights laws we are not able to deport asylum seekers back to their home nations due to fears of persecution I believe. This is an obvious reason why Europe is desirable, we are free to remove this right if things become an issue. Which would make us less desirable than France for instance. I'm not sure if that's down to the HRA, or just British law; I'm not a lawyer (and as unlikely as it may seem, I'm occasionally wrong ) but I'm pretty sure we can't deport anyone to a country where they face the death penalty. Edited 7 July 2017 by Buce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 24 minutes ago, Buce said: I'm not sure if that's down to the HRA, or just British law; I'm not a lawyer (and as unlikely as it may seem, I'm occasionally wrong ) but I'm pretty sure we can't deport anyone to a country where they face the death penalty. We can easily make the country less desirable for migrants than France without the ties of the European Union is my point. Without the need for anything particularly extreme. If brexit goes the way you guys seem to think that might be a natural conclusion for them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 13 minutes ago, Strokes said: We can easily make the country less desirable for migrants than France without the ties of the European Union is my point. Without the need for anything particularly extreme. If brexit goes the way you guys seem to think that might be a natural conclusion for them anyway. I'm sure we could. I'm not sure you or I would be happy living in a country that is so crap that even people fleeing war and poverty wouldn't want to live here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 3 minutes ago, Buce said: I'm sure we could. I'm not sure you or I would be happy living in a country that is so crap that even people fleeing war and poverty wouldn't want to live here. Not that they wouldn't want to live here, just that they would rather live in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 4 minutes ago, Strokes said: Not that they wouldn't want to live here, just that they would rather live in the EU. So, just to be clear: your answer to curbing unwanted migration is to make the UK less desirable to live in than the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 2 minutes ago, Buce said: So, just to be clear: your answer to curbing unwanted migration is to make the UK less desirable to live in than the EU? It a less desirable place to live if you are a migrant yes, for example, less things bestowed to you upon arrival that they currently are. If France won't help us process people, we have to protect ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 1 minute ago, Strokes said: It a less desirable place to live if you are a migrant yes, for example, less things bestowed to you upon arrival that they currently are. If France won't help us process people, we have to protect ourselves. What would you deny them that they currently receive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 Tuition fees should be scrapped, says 'architect' of fees Andrew Adonis https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jul/07/tuition-fees-should-be-scrapped-says-architect-of-fees-andrew-adonis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 5 minutes ago, Buce said: What would you deny them that they currently receive? Anything, everything. I don't know the details of what they have in entitlements, I'm guessing it's equal to or better than what's on offer in France otherwise they wouldn't wait months/years in Calais to cross over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 4 minutes ago, Strokes said: Anything, everything. I don't know the details of what they have in entitlements, I'm guessing it's equal to or better than what's on offer in France otherwise they wouldn't wait months/years in Calais to cross over. Food? Water? Medical aid? Leave them to drown? That's not the compassionate Strokes that I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 1 minute ago, Buce said: Food? Water? Medical aid? Leave them to drown? That's not the compassionate Strokes that I know. We could let Lilly Allen hand out water and ryvitas but that's it. No I said nothing extreme in my post earlier. Like I said I don't know what the entitlements are now, so I can't say exactly what. You can lessen the desire to be here, by making it less attractive than being processed in the EU. I hope we don't have to make any changes to our policy with genuine migrants, I don't take issue with helping. The situation we are talking about would bring on enormous pressure and would have to be dealt with somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 4 minutes ago, Strokes said: We could let Lilly Allen hand out water and ryvitas but that's it. No I said nothing extreme in my post earlier. Like I said I don't know what the entitlements are now, so I can't say exactly what. You can lessen the desire to be here, by making it less attractive than being processed in the EU. I hope we don't have to make any changes to our policy with genuine migrants, I don't take issue with helping. The situation we are talking about would bring on enormous pressure and would have to be dealt with somehow. This has become a circular discussion, mate. It seems that you know what you want (ie migrants not wanting to come here) but you don't have a clue how to achieve it without us becoming the kind of country our fathers/grandfathers fought against 70-odd years ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 7 July 2017 Share Posted 7 July 2017 4 minutes ago, Buce said: This has become a circular discussion, mate. It seems that you know what you want (ie migrants not wanting to come here) but you don't have a clue how to achieve it without us becoming the kind of country our fathers/grandfathers fought against 70-odd years ago. No, I don't want uncontrollable migration, I have no problem with migrants coming here that are needed or a fair proportion of asylum seekers. What was suggested was a hypothetical situation where France could legally let waves of migration comes here but we would be powerless to stop. My solution to that, is rather than allow this to happen, we should make it less desirable for them to want to be here. I admit I lack details in this. However, im not sure it would ever be needed, as I'm sure France can't just ship over this amount of migrants and say that's your problem, without breaching some sort of international laws themselves. We could always close the ferrys and the tunnel, if we've no trade to send over, it really isn't needed anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 8 July 2017 Share Posted 8 July 2017 8 hours ago, Buce said: This has become a circular discussion, mate. It seems that you know what you want (ie migrants not wanting to come here) but you don't have a clue how to achieve it without us becoming the kind of country our fathers/grandfathers fought against 70-odd years ago. If people want to control migration they turn us into a country like Nazi Germany? Sometimes Buce you really post some daft things. If (big if) France decided to break international law and started turning a blind eye to illegal migration to Britain of course we would have to implement policy to protect ourselves. No nation wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 8 July 2017 Share Posted 8 July 2017 8 hours ago, Buce said: Food? Water? Medical aid? Leave them to drown? That's not the compassionate Strokes that I know. You could argue Europes welcome all migration policy is actually the least compassionate thing we've ever done. It's led to thousands drowning across the med and we've helped make the people smugglers, some of the most evil people on the planet very very wealthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 8 July 2017 Share Posted 8 July 2017 (edited) Things would have to be really bad here for them not want to come.To quote a poem I saw recently. 'No one wants to leave home unless home is the barrel of a gun, No one wants to leave home unless home is the mouth of a shark.' May be slightly misquoted. Google Home by Warsan Shore Edited 8 July 2017 by Rincewind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 8 July 2017 Share Posted 8 July 2017 6 minutes ago, Rincewind said: Things would have to be really bad here for them not want to come.To quote a poem I saw recently. 'No one wants to leave home unless home is the barrel of a gun, No one wants to leave home unless home is the mouth of a shark.' May be slightly misquoted. Google Home by Warsan Shore It's quite widely accepted now by most judges and charities that most of the people trying to come through Calais are actually African economic migrants rather than people fleeing war. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12130081/Many-of-Jungle-occupants-not-refugees-says-top-UK-immigration-judge.html https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/06/liberals-harsh-truths-help-refugees-syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 8 July 2017 Share Posted 8 July 2017 2 minutes ago, MattP said: If people want to control migration they turn us into a country like Nazi Germany? Sometimes Buce you really post some daft things. If (big if) France decided to break international law and started turning a blind eye to illegal migration to Britain of course we would have to implement policy to protect ourselves. No nation wouldn't. You've taken that out of context. If you read the entire (good natured) exchange, Strokes had suggested the best way of deterring migration was to make our country so undesirable that no one would want to come here. I asked how we might do that, and he replied by giving them less than we do now. I asked what he would deprive them of, and he replied, 'anything, everything' (although he later retracted it). Depriving kids of water, food, and medical assistance would indeed make us as morally bankrupt as Nazi Germany. For the record, I have never been an advocate of uncontrolled migration, and I totally agree that it is undesirable. The debate was merely about how we are going to control it if we move the border posts back to the UK, and if France take a relaxed attitude to migrants jumping on small boats to cross the channel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 July 2017 Share Posted 8 July 2017 10 minutes ago, Rincewind said: Things would have to be really bad here for them not want to come.To quote a poem I saw recently. 'No one wants to leave home unless home is the barrel of a gun, No one wants to leave home unless home is the mouth of a shark.' May be slightly misquoted. Google Home by Warsan Shore Yeah that's not what I'm saying rincewind, people I'm arguing with are seen to be under the assumption these migrants are coming from a war torn country. Wake up, they aren't, they are coming from France . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 8 July 2017 Share Posted 8 July 2017 Just now, Buce said: You've taken that out of context. If you read the entire (good natured) exchange, Strokes had suggested the best way of deterring migration was to make our country so undesirable that no one would want to come here. I asked how we might do that, and he replied by giving them less than we do now. I asked what he would deprive them of, and he replied, 'anything, everything' (although he later retracted it). Depriving kids of water, food, and medical assistance would indeed make us as morally bankrupt as Nazi Germany. For the record, I have never been an advocate of uncontrolled migration, and I totally agree that it is undesirable. The debate was merely about how we are going to control it if we move the border posts back to the UK, and if France take a relaxed attitude to migrants jumping on small boats to cross the channel. He is free to correct me, but I thought it was extremely clear Stokes was saying we should make the welfare system undesirable to discourage people, not the actual country. No one has still answered a quite pertinent question of why a lot of these people are so desperate to get to the UK having already traveled through multiple safe countries they could have claimed asylum in. Although I have ask, why would the moral bankruptcy fall on us and not Emmanuel Macron and France if this did happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 8 July 2017 Share Posted 8 July 2017 4 minutes ago, MattP said: It's quite widely accepted now by most judges and charities that most of the people trying to come through Calais are actually African economic migrants rather than people fleeing war. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12130081/Many-of-Jungle-occupants-not-refugees-says-top-UK-immigration-judge.html https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/06/liberals-harsh-truths-help-refugees-syria This report challenges that as a myth: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/jul/07/war-and-violence-drive-majority-of-people-fleeing-to-europe-by-sea-not-economics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 July 2017 Share Posted 8 July 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Buce said: You've taken that out of context. If you read the entire (good natured) exchange, Strokes had suggested the best way of deterring migration was to make our country so undesirable that no one would want to come here. I asked how we might do that, and he replied by giving them less than we do now. I asked what he would deprive them of, and he replied, 'anything, everything' (although he later retracted it). Depriving kids of water, food, and medical assistance would indeed make us as morally bankrupt as Nazi Germany. For the record, I have never been an advocate of uncontrolled migration, and I totally agree that it is undesirable. The debate was merely about how we are going to control it if we move the border posts back to the UK, and if France take a relaxed attitude to migrants jumping on small boats to cross the channel. I didn't retract anything, the post itself was unclear, my sentiments are still the same. I had said 'nothing extreme' in earlier post so assumed it was understood we were talking more on a monetary basis. Edited 8 July 2017 by Strokes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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