Strikes

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

That top bosses are often overpaid compared

And/or the ability to demand what you believe to be the price of your labour in a current market in a variety of ways is the right of everyone, or no one. Fair's fair.

[lcfc278]

1 hour ago, Tommy G said:

Not empathy as such - there is a big divide between private sector and public sector pay, no one in the private sector is getting 10% plus payrises, a few maybe but not all. The reason this has now come to light in regards to years and years of under inflation public sector payrises is due to current levels of inflation. If we gave everyone in our business double digit payrises we wouldn't be profitable!

Current levels of inflation have only exacerbated the situation, they've not had pay rises in line with inflation for years, not suddenly in the past 18 months. In the private sector I guarantee you the vast majority of employees in good income jobs have had increases each year in line with or above inflation, for the majority of the last 10 years, not all of them with recent times, but the majority of those years.

 

The difference is, in the private sector if I'm not happy with my pay or conditions I can jump and skip over to a new job and new company that offers what I want. Teachers and nurses can only jump up in to private schools and private healthcare or leave the profession. 

 

At the end of the day, they are due decent pay rises, they do valuable jobs, and if we don't sort out the pay and make it fair and attractive pretty soon you can wave goodbye to your NHS and any decent schools you want your kids to go to.

[Tommy G]

11 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

That top bosses are often overpaid compared

Compared to what? Their peers, or other jobs with different responsibilities?

[Tommy G]

6 minutes ago, lcfc278 said:

Current levels of inflation have only exacerbated the situation, they've not had pay rises in line with inflation for years, not suddenly in the past 18 months. In the private sector I guarantee you the vast majority of employees in good income jobs have had increases each year in line with or above inflation, for the majority of the last 10 years, not all of them with recent times, but the majority of those years.

 

The difference is, in the private sector if I'm not happy with my pay or conditions I can jump and skip over to a new job and new company that offers what I want. Teachers and nurses can only jump up in to private schools and private healthcare or leave the profession. 

 

At the end of the day, they are due decent pay rises, they do valuable jobs, and if we don't sort out the pay and make it fair and attractive pretty soon you can wave goodbye to your NHS and any decent schools you want your kids to go to.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm saying there wouldn't be strikes right now if it wasn't due to current year inflation levels. If inflation was at 1%/2% like in the last decade - no strikes. My further point is no one (or very few) in the private sector will be getting in line with inflation pay rises, it would cripple most businesses who can't pass these increases onto their customers. It's a fallacy that people who work in private sector jobs are rolling round in a cash pit and 10% pay rises. Private sector workers have little sway when it comes to striking en mass.

[Foxdiamond]

11 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Compared to what? Their peers, or other jobs with different responsibilities?

Work it out yourself

[Bordersfox]

5 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Nurses are asking for 20% no?  Inflation is 10.5%.  I am not saying they don't deserve it they certainly deserve something decent for a change, just that the government cannot do that and find the money for everything else.  Tax rises stifle economic growth.  The UK already has high tax rates.

 

If you expect everyone to get a pay rise in line with inflation you are in dreamland.

High tax rates compared to which countries? We are below the OECD average and compared to many European countries we do not have particularly high taxes.  

 

Yet many of those countries seem to be out performing us economically.  Germany to name but one.

 

That higher taxes automatically mean a stifled economy is simply not true.  I am sure you know there are many factors playing in to economic growth or recession.  

 

I am not saying there doesn't need to be a balance but sweeping statements like that aren't particularly helpful.  

 

And whilst I agree there are always finite resources but near infinite demand for public services what this government has done is singularly failed to address basic stuff (like off shore tax havens, tax avoidance, obscene earnings and bonuses back in the City) that might increase revenue as have many governments including New Labour prior to them.  Again it won't solve everything but it's a start.

 

Edit - also why should economic growth be the only measure of a countries success?  What about happiness of the population, lower crime, better health and stuff like that?  America has been an economic titan but frankly you couldn't pay me to live in a society like that.  

 

However, I suspect out world views are so wildly different we will never agree.  But I will not accept that higher taxes automatically lead to stifling an economy. 

Edited 18 January 2023 by Bordersfox

[Foxdiamond]

Perhaps other outgoings such as housing costs are just too high for people to manage

[pleatout]

5 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Nurses are asking for 20% no?  Inflation is 10.5%.  I am not saying they don't deserve it they certainly deserve something decent for a change, just that the government cannot do that and find the money for everything else.  Tax rises stifle economic growth.  The UK already has high tax rates.

 

If you expect everyone to get a pay rise in line with inflation you are in dreamland.

Bottom line - right hand corner  of my NHS payslip - my take home pay.  The bit that really matters.

 

In 10 years has risen 5% - not 5% per year but 5% total

 

10 years of "low inflation", inflation amounts to 27%.

 

I'm 22% worse off.

 

If the nurses (I'm not one) got 20% (they wont, they know they wont, it's called a negotiating position) they'd still be 2% worse off than 10 years ago. 

 

So you're saying we could have had a decent pay rise during the "good times" then?  when was that?  A wednesday afternoon in 2016? 

 

Anyway, we all preferred it when you clapped on the doorsteps whilst our peers and colleagues risked their lives and died. 

[pleatout]

3 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Lol dude would be great if I line-managed you at bonus time - who the hell goes in with their first offer being what they actually want?!

As a public sector worker, what is this "bonus" you speak of?  Are they like the "perks" we also hear the private sector speak of?

[lcfc278]

32 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm saying there wouldn't be strikes right now if it wasn't due to current year inflation levels. If inflation was at 1%/2% like in the last decade - no strikes. My further point is no one (or very few) in the private sector will be getting in line with inflation pay rises, it would cripple most businesses who can't pass these increases onto their customers. It's a fallacy that people who work in private sector jobs are rolling round in a cash pit and 10% pay rises. Private sector workers have little sway when it comes to striking en mass.

No, I imagine the amount of people getting an inflation matching pay rise this year is very low. But that's this year. How many years has inflation been low over the last 10 years and private sector employees have had that increase factored in to an annual raise, plus some on top?

 

The fact is Teachers/Nurses have not had enough raises to keep up and they are worse off and behind where they were 10 years ago, in real terms. There has to be some give from the Govt. and at this point the only way to push for it is to strike.

 

 

[Tommy G]

35 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Work it out yourself

No because you are making shooting from the hip cuckoo land points 

[Tommy G]

7 minutes ago, lcfc278 said:

No, I imagine the amount of people getting an inflation matching pay rise this year is very low. But that's this year. How many years has inflation been low over the last 10 years and private sector employees have had that increase factored in to an annual raise, plus some on top?

 

The fact is Teachers/Nurses have not had enough raises to keep up and they are worse off and behind where they were 10 years ago, in real terms. There has to be some give from the Govt. and at this point the only way to push for it is to strike.

 

 

Says who? The media? Or have you got some handpicked examples? 

[Foxdiamond]

21 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

No because you are making shooting from the hip cuckoo land points 

Look at some of the eye watering sums that some of the big bosses get. Inflation won't bother them

[Tommy G]

1 minute ago, Foxdiamond said:

Look at some of the eye watering sums that some of the big bosses get. Inflation won't bother them

And what is your point? What about the tax they pay through PAYE to fund the public services? 

[lcfc278]

23 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Says who? The media? Or have you got some handpicked examples? 

The average inflation rate over the last 10 years is just over 2.5%, ranging from between 1% - 3.5% you can find that online somewhere I'm sure of it.

 

In most private sector industries it's pretty much an expectation by workers that inflation is usually factored into annual pay rises, it's only since it's been higher post-Covid and all the recent external factors where this probably hasn't been the case. Employers know if they don't that they are most likely to lose talented employees as it's been pretty much a given.

 

[Tommy G]

Just now, lcfc278 said:

The average inflation rate over the last 10 years is just over 2.5%, ranging from between 1% - 3.5% you can find that online somewhere I'm sure of it.

 

In most private sector industries it's pretty much an expectation by workers that inflation is usually factored into annual pay rises, it's only since it's been higher post-Covid and all the recent external factors where this probably hasn't been the case. Employers know if they don't that they are most likely to lose talented employees as it's been pretty much a given.

 

Do you work in the public or private sector?  

[lcfc278]

Just now, Tommy G said:

Do you work in the public or private sector?  

I work in the private sector, |I've also worked in 3 completely different industries over the last 10 years and I've seen the same expectations in all 3.

[Foxdiamond]

10 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

And what is your point? What about the tax they pay through PAYE to fund the public services? 

Or the tax that is not paid by some

[Tommy G]

3 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Or the tax that is not paid by some

Please put down the Guardian 

[Foxdiamond]

9 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Please put down the Guardian 

If you put down Daily Mail

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, pleatout said:

As a public sector worker, what is this "bonus" you speak of?  Are they like the "perks" we also hear the private sector speak of?

Haha, your bonus is the fat pension system you are part of! Perks are job security!

 

But anyway we all make our choices, not a dig at you. Nothing stopping me going into the public sector and juicing the pension train and knowing I can keep my job for as long as I want, or even doing a CFO role at a regional 100/150 person industry firm and watching my brain slowly turn into mush as I do the same tedious thing everyday. I haven't so I won't moan 

[Robo61]

4 hours ago, Tommy G said:

Not empathy as such - there is a big divide between private sector and public sector pay, no one in the private sector is getting 10% plus payrises, a few maybe but not all. The reason this has now come to light in regards to years and years of under inflation public sector payrises is due to current levels of inflation. If we gave everyone in our business double digit payrises we wouldn't be profitable!

 

Maybe not,  but the private sector are getting significant larger rises than the public sector.  Since 2010 almost no private sector worker has (exception being MP's) have had any rises that have either matched or beaton inflation.  Plus most public sector workers have had significant detrimantal changes to their pension schemes.  It is no wonder that most of the public sector are struggling to attact workers.

[pleatout]

29 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Haha, your bonus is the fat pension system you are part of! Perks are job security!

 

But anyway we all make our choices, not a dig at you. Nothing stopping me going into the public sector and juicing the pension train and knowing I can keep my job for as long as I want, or even doing a CFO role at a regional 100/150 person industry firm and watching my brain slowly turn into mush as I do the same tedious thing everyday. I haven't so I won't moan 

Haha the "fat" pension that I have to pay a significant part of my salary for.  And if you cant afford it, erm you dont get one!

 

Job security - really?   Where?  Constant threats of privatisation - have a quick look at AQP.  One perk is learning the TUPE rules backwards.

 

 

 

[pleatout]

5 minutes ago, pleatout said:

Haha the "fat" pension that I have to pay a significant part of my salary for.  And if you cant afford it, erm you dont get one!

 

Job security - really?   Where?  Constant threats of privatisation - have a quick look at AQP.  One perk is learning the TUPE rules backwards.

 

 

 

Just for comparison

https://equiniti.com/uk/news-and-views/news-releases/private-sector-pension-contributions-double-over-last-decade/

"This increase probably represents the impact of the increased minimum contribution rates, rising to 5% in April 2018 and then stepping up again to 8% in April 2019."

 

NHS Employee pension contributions are 

1 £0 to £13,246.99               5.1%

2 £13,247.00 to £16,831.99 5.7%

3 £16,832.00 to £22,878.99 6.1%

4 £22,879.00 to £23,948.99 6.8%

5 £23,949.00 to £28,223.99 7.7%

6 £28,224.00 to £29,179.99 8.8%

7 £29,180.00 to £43,805.99 9.8%  Figure the government claims is "average nurse pay"

8 £43,806.00 to £49,245.99 10%

9 £49,246.00 to £56,163.99 11.6%

10 £56,164.00 to £72,030.99 12.5%

11 £72,031 and above 13.5%

 

So it appears the NHS pay more for our "fat pensions" than the private sector do.

 

Yep seems about right.

 

 

 

 

[grobyfox1990]

12 minutes ago, pleatout said:

Haha the "fat" pension that I have to pay a significant part of my salary for.  And if you cant afford it, erm you dont get one!

 

Job security - really?   Where?  Constant threats of privatisation - have a quick look at AQP.  One perk is learning the TUPE rules backwards.

 

 

 

Yeh of course the employee contribution is high but the employer part is also massive? Plus you can offset your contribution against tax obvs. My wife works in the NHS, the pension provision they get is unheard of compared to private hence you have many older consultants not wanting to come back to work, because they can't opt out and they've already hit the lifetime allowance LOL. The tax benefits plus investment gains over time make this a safer bet than a bonus paid subject to PAYE. R.e job security, do you have large scale rounds of sackings that aren't paid off with good redundancy terms? I'm asking not telling and like I said not moaning, I've made my choices, not going to finger point at others.