ozleicester Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 7 minutes ago, Tommy G said: Should a leading consultant cardiologist of 25 years get paid more than someone who works in an elderly care home? Both do completely and equally valuable jobs. It’s about as insane as the question you asked me. No, its about how much we value people. Some people value themselves and their ability to make or save money....more highly than ythey do a nurse or assistant who may be the one to save/change/improve a child and a families life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy G Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, ozleicester said: No, its about how much we value people. Some people value themselves and their ability to make or save money....more highly than ythey do a nurse or assistant who may be the one to save/change/improve a child and a families life. I’m confused at the angle you’re going with here so I’ll leave you and your bonkers theories to it. If you want to give everyone who “makes a difference” a 3 fold pay rise then I’d like you to expand on how that would be funded. And your criteria - of who qualifies for those roles. I don’t know why I’m wasting my time with this insanity - go to school or something or pick up a book. Edited 19 January 2023 by Tommy G 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 2 minutes ago, Tommy G said: I’m confused at the angle you’re going with here so I’ll leave you and your bonkers theories to it. Well that might be the problem... there is no "angle", you want the best help for your family, but would rather pay a banker 10x more than a nurse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy G Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 Just now, ozleicester said: Well that might be the problem... there is no "angle", you want the best help for your family, but would rather pay a banker 10x more than a nurse Quote me where I mentioned paying a banker 10 times more than a nurse?! You are making stuff up to suit your agenda and can’t follow through with a point of intelligence so instead make stuff up. The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him. So I’m out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 18 minutes ago, Tommy G said: Quote me where I mentioned paying a banker 10 times more than a nurse?! You are making stuff up to suit your agenda and can’t follow through with a point of intelligence so instead make stuff up. The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him. So I’m out. I honestly hope you find some caring motivated people who will improve your childs and your families future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 16 hours ago, ozleicester said: middle ground....Do you think a nurse should earn as much as you, or your boss? I would expect a very senior director of nursing of a major hospital trust to earn something close to my salary yes, but like a qualified accountant doesn't earn as much as me or my boss not a grade 4 or 5 staff nurse no. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 1 hour ago, ozleicester said: No, its about how much we value people. Some people value themselves and their ability to make or save money....more highly than ythey do a nurse or assistant who may be the one to save/change/improve a child and a families life. This is very simply becuase many many more people are capable of being a nurse or HCA than are capable of being a highly paid successful banker. I full acknowledge there is an awful lot of priveldge / opportunity etc that goes into that which makes it messy, but it is true. That doesn't mean the banker is more important, just that they have more value in a capitalist system based on supply and demand. It's the same reason a consultant surgeon is paid more than a nurse. Thats not to say there aren't people who are in nursing who couldn't be very good consultant surgeons had they had the opportunity or ambition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 17 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: This is very simply becuase many many more people are capable of being a nurse or HCA than are capable of being a highly paid successful banker. I full acknowledge there is an awful lot of priveldge / opportunity etc that goes into that which makes it messy, but it is true. That doesn't mean the banker is more important, just that they have more value in a capitalist system based on supply and demand. It's the same reason a consultant surgeon is paid more than a nurse. Thats not to say there aren't people who are in nursing who couldn't be very good consultant surgeons had they had the opportunity or ambition. This touches on an interesting debate IMO. For me, "more value in such a system" and "more important (to humanity)" are rather intrinsically linked because of the way our society works (link between value of labour and perceived value to that society), and I'd like to know why they wouldn't be that way linked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daggers Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 32 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: This is very simply becuase many many more people are capable of being a nurse or HCA than are capable of being a highly paid successful banker. You don't need to be capable to become a successful banker, you just need a chunk missing from your soul. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 3 hours ago, leicsmac said: This touches on an interesting debate IMO. For me, "more value in such a system" and "more important (to humanity)" are rather intrinsically linked because of the way our society works (link between value of labour and perceived value to that society), and I'd like to know why they wouldn't be that way linked. All rather theoretical but you can be important to society as a group but not individually have unique characteristics which create a skills rarity which leads to higher pay. That said we clearly do have a shortage of nurses, which enables some to work overtime or agency etc. at higher rates without pushing up salaries overall, but that is also to do with the aggregated buying power of the NHS / Government. If this was a free labour market NHS trusts would be competing on salary for staff. They aren't which is a good thing overall but not for the individual. Structurally though this is why doctors earn more than nurses, along with the way they share responsibility, accountability etc. All rather separate from the reality of nurses deserving a pay rise, but the NHS needing to not blow all of its conceivable budget on it. Challenging times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grobyfox1990 Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 6 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: All rather theoretical but you can be important to society as a group but not individually have unique characteristics which create a skills rarity which leads to higher pay. That said we clearly do have a shortage of nurses, which enables some to work overtime or agency etc. at higher rates without pushing up salaries overall, but that is also to do with the aggregated buying power of the NHS / Government. If this was a free labour market NHS trusts would be competing on salary for staff. They aren't which is a good thing overall but not for the individual. Structurally though this is why doctors earn more than nurses, along with the way they share responsibility, accountability etc. All rather separate from the reality of nurses deserving a pay rise, but the NHS needing to not blow all of its conceivable budget on it. Challenging times. Not saying this is what you’re saying and genuinely asking the question, not presuming. But do you know what investment bankers and/or sell side traders actually do? Because the skills required are certainly not a rarity. Ok the pressure and stress is enough to warrant a £150k ish salary sure but >£500k onwards is total madness for an administrative or execution only role Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 12 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said: Not saying this is what you’re saying and genuinely asking the question, not presuming. But do you know what investment bankers and/or sell side traders actually do? Because the skills required are certainly not a rarity. Ok the pressure and stress is enough to warrant a £150k ish salary sure but >£500k onwards is total madness for an administrative or execution only role I wasn't really comparing bankers and nurses, more trying to explain why nurses are obviously very important as a group but not the highest paid roles out there. Footballers might be a better description. They are paid a lot because they make their employers a lot. Doesn't mean they necessarily deserve or earn it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raj Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Tommy G said: Green eyed monster is out…what have I ever done to you? Apart from having a differing opinion. Hardly criminal of the year! Do yourself a favour and stop being so righteous and pompous and good things might happen to you in your life. It's not all about money. Edited 19 January 2023 by Raj 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 8 hours ago, Tommy G said: I said it was an assumption that everyone who disagrees with strikes is ill educated - what’s wrong with that? I didn't say that though I said people who parrot the propaganda about teachers being lazy are ill educated. I can understand people being against strikes. As I said earlier, I chose not to strike in 2016, as its quite drastic and I naively thought things could get better on their own. Clearly I was an idiot, as education has been gutted substantially more since. Turns out that unless you actively strike, the Government will treat your profession like shit. And they think the answer to the teacher recruitment crisis is "put more 'be a teacher' adverts on the TV", since it's easier than sorting out all the systemic problems in the education system. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxes1988 Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 10 hours ago, Jon the Hat said: This is very simply becuase many many more people are capable of being a nurse or HCA than are capable of being a highly paid successful banker. I full acknowledge there is an awful lot of priveldge / opportunity etc that goes into that which makes it messy, but it is true. That doesn't mean the banker is more important, just that they have more value in a capitalist system based on supply and demand. It's the same reason a consultant surgeon is paid more than a nurse. Thats not to say there aren't people who are in nursing who couldn't be very good consultant surgeons had they had the opportunity or ambition. Ignoring bankers for a minute (we all know they make plenty of money that would be better suited elsewhere) the capitalist system is currently screaming that a lot of these public sector workers are underpaid by virtue of the lack of supply. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 It’s hard to suggest simply everyone has become ‘lazy’, this has been used as a stick to beat the next generation with for forever and a day. If so many sectors are going on strikes (note even the Barristers have been on strike recently) then our institutions and infrastructure are clearly in disarray. It doesn’t help as well that in coming years that we may see a stark difference in working conditions and culture; a lot of private sector, and in some cases public sector, jobs will likely see a shift to WFH and potentially even four day weeks. Meanwhile 24/7 occupations, ie health service, logistics and the likes will have to remain more or less as is, how will this effect pay in these positions? There’s so many areas that require reform or increased funding or more targeted funding all in the midst of a financial crisis it seems almost insurmountable, but then I suppose that’s always been the case when things turn for the worse on a national level. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 15 minutes ago, Finnaldo said: It’s hard to suggest simply everyone has become ‘lazy’, this has been used as a stick to beat the next generation with for forever and a day. If so many sectors are going on strikes (note even the Barristers have been on strike recently) then our institutions and infrastructure are clearly in disarray. It doesn’t help as well that in coming years that we may see a stark difference in working conditions and culture; a lot of private sector, and in some cases public sector, jobs will likely see a shift to WFH and potentially even four day weeks. Meanwhile 24/7 occupations, ie health service, logistics and the likes will have to remain more or less as is, how will this effect pay in these positions? There’s so many areas that require reform or increased funding or more targeted funding all in the midst of a financial crisis it seems almost insurmountable, but then I suppose that’s always been the case when things turn for the worse on a national level. And the trend towards further automation of many jobs is going to stir the pot much further. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parafox Posted 19 January 2023 Share Posted 19 January 2023 6 hours ago, leicsmac said: And the trend towards further automation of many jobs is going to stir the pot much further. Mrs P wanted to go to Fosse Park. We went to Boots and Boots has no human operated tills. Try and find staff in most big stores for advice or help and you'll struggle. I needed a certain item in Asda that I struggled to locate. There was no staff around to ask apart from one who only worked in George and didn't have a clue. I asked the "help desk" and they put a call out for a member of "x" department for assistance. No-one turned up. Customer consideration/service. Going down the pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 20 January 2023 Share Posted 20 January 2023 14 hours ago, foxes1988 said: Ignoring bankers for a minute (we all know they make plenty of money that would be better suited elsewhere) the capitalist system is currently screaming that a lot of these public sector workers are underpaid by virtue of the lack of supply. Yes indeed, however we also know that people take into account other factors than pay. A lot of people leave nursing and teaching becuase they are being let down by the failing system around then, not just becuase of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 20 January 2023 Share Posted 20 January 2023 7 hours ago, Parafox said: Mrs P wanted to go to Fosse Park. We went to Boots and Boots has no human operated tills. Try and find staff in most big stores for advice or help and you'll struggle. I needed a certain item in Asda that I struggled to locate. There was no staff around to ask apart from one who only worked in George and didn't have a clue. I asked the "help desk" and they put a call out for a member of "x" department for assistance. No-one turned up. Customer consideration/service. Going down the pan. Corporate greed, underpayment means staff are hard to get and keep. They cant afford to train staff beyond the minimum. We are all underpaid so we seek only the cheapest option, we are forced to shop only for sales and always take the discount option. Meanwhile a proportion of people steal the joy of life by avoiding tax and getting overpaid for work that almost anyone given an opportunity could do equally well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Posted 20 January 2023 Author Share Posted 20 January 2023 Can we issue fines to the teachers for missing days? Like they threaten to send us, if we decide to take our children out of school for a day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post grobyfox1990 Posted 20 January 2023 Popular Post Share Posted 20 January 2023 1 hour ago, Sly said: Can we issue fines to the teachers for missing days? Like they threaten to send us, if we decide to take our children out of school for a day? Yeh we already have, they don’t get paid when on strike 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ozleicester Posted 20 January 2023 Popular Post Share Posted 20 January 2023 1 hour ago, Sly said: Can we issue fines to the teachers for missing days? Like they threaten to send us, if we decide to take our children out of school for a day? You know its the council/government that makes these rules, the teachers have to follow. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raj Posted 20 January 2023 Share Posted 20 January 2023 People do need to realise that most of the workers striking DO NOT get paid for striking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted 20 January 2023 Share Posted 20 January 2023 30 minutes ago, Raj said: People do need to realise that most of the workers striking DO NOT get paid for striking. I think the majority of people understand this, tbf. It wouldn’t really make sense if people got paid for striking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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