US Presidential Election 2024

[MPH]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Really?

 

Wow - if that's not a peak example of turkeys voting for Christmas then it's damn close.

 

It would be darkly hilarious were the stakes not so high and the consequences so severe.

 

 

it appears there may have been a massive miscalculation by the Dems in so much as they have campaigned on taking the moral high ground and neglected policies such as the economy and foreign policies..

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, MPH said:

it appears there may have been a massive miscalculation by the Dems in so much as they have campaigned on taking the moral high ground and neglected policies such as the economy and foreign policies..

An explanation but in no way an excuse and shouldn't be spun as one, by anyone, not now and certainly not when bad stuff happens later.

Edited 26 October 2024 by leicsmac

[MPH]

11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

An explanation but in no way an excuse and shouldn't be spun as one, by anyone, not now and certainly not when bad stuff happens later.

 

it’s real politics, unfortunately.. I mean, they are electing a political leader and not a church leader..

Edited 26 October 2024 by MPH

[Lionator]

Harris has been appalling on the campaign trail, she stands for nothing but “I’m not Donald Trump”. Basically what Biden did in 2020 but without the highly regard 50 year political career as back up. She’s obviously the better candidate but so would Danny Devito

[leicsmac]

19 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

it’s real politics, unfortunately.. I mean, they are electing a political leader and not a church leader..

Previous post still applies, also unfortunately.

[Paninistickers]

18 minutes ago, Lionator said:

 She’s obviously the better candidate but so would Danny Devito

Is she? Her performance on the campaign trail has been woeful. How on earth would she cope chatting to big political intellectual brains on the world circuit? And at home, she's just a robot doing as she's told. 

 

Trump DOES cope on the biggest stages, courtesy of his ego and his charm/flattery. And at home, he's driven again by his ego that demands 'wins' - which in turn does lead to some wins for the nation - either by accident or design

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Is she? Her performance on the campaign trail has been woeful. How on earth would she cope chatting to big political intellectual brains on the world circuit? And at home, she's just a robot doing as she's told. 

 

Trump DOES cope on the biggest stages, courtesy of his ego and his charm/flattery. And at home, he's driven again by his ego that demands 'wins' - which in turn does lead to some wins for the nation - either by accident or design

Not sure how much foreign policy driven pretty much by "oh, whatever you want, Mr Putin" owes much to charm or flattery, but fair enough on the ego part.

 

In any case, he can have all the wins he wants in terms of domestic and foreign policy, but if he gets the very largest issues wrong (which he is), all of those wins will be rendered unfortunately meaningless.

[MPH]

18 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Not sure how much foreign policy driven pretty much by "oh, whatever you want, Mr Putin" owes much to charm or flattery, but fair enough on the ego part.

 

In any case, he can have all the wins he wants in terms of domestic and foreign policy, but if he gets the very largest issues wrong (which he is), all of those wins will be rendered unfortunately meaningless.

 

 

But  there isn’t anything good to be only  shouting from the soapbox how morally right you are. you can’t enact any of the right moral ‘wins’ if you don’t get elected. Besides, the Muslims in Detroit would say that their own personal concerns on foreign policy is a huge Moral concern- the treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza.

[Torquay Gunner]

35 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Is she? Her performance on the campaign trail has been woeful. How on earth would she cope chatting to big political intellectual brains on the world circuit? And at home, she's just a robot doing as she's told. 

 

Trump DOES cope on the biggest stages, courtesy of his ego and his charm/flattery. And at home, he's driven again by his ego that demands 'wins' - which in turn does lead to some wins for the nation - either by accident or design

You must have forgotten Trump being laughed at by the UN for his ridiculous hyperbole when President. I imagine most leaders see him for the ignorant narcissist that he is.  ‘Charm/flattery’ are not two words many would associate with Trump, by hey ho. 

 

 

 

 

[leicsmac]

Just now, MPH said:

 

 

But  there isn’t anything good to be only  shouting from the soapbox how morally right you are. you can’t enact any of the right moral ‘wins’ if you don’t get elected. Besides, the Muslims in Detroit would say that their own personal concerns on foreign policy is a huge Moral concern- the treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza.

Yeah, certainly principle without the power to apply it is worth zilch.

 

That being said, sometimes highlighting the policy differences/issues with framing does have a utility because it states, very clearly, for the record, what people are voting for and that they should own it. And perhaps when things are revisited a while into the future when accountability is sought (or maybe even demanded), who might be held accountable.

 

In short, in this case; yes, the winning is the important part, but if you lose, it's also better to make sure it's known for posterity that you did what you could, and perhaps so not go down in historical infamy. (But then those who suffer as a result of the events that might about to happen might not be that discerning when it comes to who to blame anyway.)

[MPH]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, certainly principle without the power to apply it is worth zilch.

 

That being said, sometimes highlighting the policy differences/issues with framing does have a utility because it states, very clearly, for the record, what people are voting for and that they should own it. And perhaps when things are revisited a while into the future when accountability is sought (or maybe even demanded), who might be held accountable.

 

In short, in this case; yes, the winning is the important part, but if you lose, it's also better to make sure it's known for posterity that you did what you could, and perhaps so not go down in historical infamy. (But then those who suffer as a result of the events that might about to happen might not be that discerning when it comes to who to blame anyway.)

 

No one will remember the side that said they were right and didn’t get elected. Neither are they of any benefit to anyone.  They have spent way too much time talking about how bad trump is and people feel betrayed and ignored because of it.

 

They could have been smart. They could have been morally right AND electable and I feel that opportunity is slipping away.  All they had to do was focus on themselves and communicated their own positions better instead of attacking Trump all the time. It has been theirs to lose.

 

4 more years of Trump.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

No one will remember the side that said they were right and didn’t get elected. Neither are they of any benefit to anyone.  They have spent way too much time talking about how bad trump is and people feel betrayed and ignored because of it.

 

They could have been smart. They could have been morally right AND electable and I feel that opportunity is slipping away.  All they had to do was focus on themselves and communicated their own positions better instead of attacking Trump all the time. It has been theirs to lose.

 

4 more years of Trump.

They can be blamed for what's to come if one wishes, there's likely some culpability there.

 

Personally, I'm going to be mostly blaming the hands that actually will have the blood on them, rather than dismissing them as just doing what they do because the other side failed to stop them.

 

Edit: sorry for my own strength of opinion here, but there is zero justification for anyone for bringing Trump back into politics, let alone the top job again, that should stand alone as an argument because it is evidence based true, and I think focusing on what the Dems have done/are doing wrong (as much as it is) is entirely the wrong target and it's tiresome and pointless to see because it further opens the door to the consequences that will ensue and Trump and his followers not being held responsible for them.

Edited 26 October 2024 by leicsmac

[MPH]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

They can be blamed for what's to come if one wishes, there's likely some culpability there.

 

Personally, I'm going to be mostly blaming the hands that actually will have the blood on them, rather than dismissing them as just doing what they do because the other side failed to stop them.

 

it’s not even that they  failed to stop them… the Dems did have quite a lead . Even in most of the swing states. They’ve thrown it away. All they had to do  was stay on track..

Edited 26 October 2024 by MPH

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

it’s not even that they  failed to stop them… the Dems did have quite a lead . Even in most of the swing states. They’ve thrown it away. All they had to do is stay on track..

And while that should rightly piss anyone vaguely concerned with the future off, I've added an edit above which explains further.

[MPH]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And while that should rightly piss anyone vaguely concerned with the future off, I've added an edit above which explains further.

I’m just frustrated, in case you couldn’t tell..

[Sly]

Please could someone summarise me the current position on this? 
 

Is it closer? I don’t want to really read the propaganda machine that is Twitter, as it can’t be trusted as a credible source for the colour of ketchup these days. 
 

American politics comes across as barmy to me. 
 

Maybe it’s all the rallies with people with guns etc.

 

Mass swings in voters due to religion? is that actually happening? 

[grobyfox1990]

9 hours ago, Lionator said:

Harris has been appalling on the campaign trail, she stands for nothing but “I’m not Donald Trump”. Basically what Biden did in 2020 but without the highly regard 50 year political career as back up. She’s obviously the better candidate but so would Danny Devito

Yeh agreed, she’s frustratingly terrible. She even managed to turn a Beyoncé appearance into a bore fest. I said it earlier in this thread, I have no idea how an undecided could be swayed by her. It’s like me voting for a Tory such as penny mourdant or Shaun Bailey last July 

[leicsmac]

10 hours ago, MPH said:

I’m just frustrated, in case you couldn’t tell..

Yeah, that's entirely understandable mate, and so am I. Think that came out in my words last night.

 

I can't quite believe that it's come to this.

 

2 hours ago, Sly said:

Please could someone summarise me the current position on this? 
 

Is it closer? I don’t want to really read the propaganda machine that is Twitter, as it can’t be trusted as a credible source for the colour of ketchup these days. 
 

American politics comes across as barmy to me. 
 

Maybe it’s all the rallies with people with guns etc.

 

Mass swings in voters due to religion? is that actually happening? 

Trump is currently a 55-45 favourite with fivethirtyeight, which is probably the most reliable forecaster. He's certainly been gaining momentum over the last few weeks.

 

Exactly why it's come to this... well, even the best political theorists might have trouble with that one. But for what it's worth, my own take is that skilful manipulation of media, stoking of fears of the other and tapping into the base sentiment of short term self interest has built Trump a cult of personality that hasn't gone away despite inciting a legislative coup attempt, a criminal conviction, and a lost election. Perception has superseded facts.

 

To any sane person, the consequences of him having power again would be enough. But it seems like we don't live in a sane world, and I fear a lot of decent people will pay dearly for that.

[ozleicester]

2 hours ago, Sly said:

Please could someone summarise me the current position on this? 
 

Is it closer? I don’t want to really read the propaganda machine that is Twitter, as it can’t be trusted as a credible source for the colour of ketchup these days. 
 

American politics comes across as barmy to me. 
 

Maybe it’s all the rallies with people with guns etc.

 

Mass swings in voters due to religion? is that actually happening? 

I don't think anyone can tell you anything of value  The polls have them 50/50 it depends who turns out to vote which is unknowable.

 

Sit back and watch is my recommendation, nothing we say, think, read or write has any meaning.

[grobyfox1990]

10 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

I don't think anyone can tell you anything of value  The polls have them 50/50 it depends who turns out to vote which is unknowable.

 

Sit back and watch is my recommendation, nothing we say, think, read or write has any meaning.

Yep totally agreed. I can’t wait for next Tuesday. It’s gonna be proper YOOOESSSSAAYYYY style entertainment. Wish I could be in nyc for it. In 2016 I was working in Washington on election night and it was unforgettable drama 

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Yep totally agreed. I can’t wait for next Tuesday. It’s gonna be proper YOOOESSSSAAYYYY style entertainment. Wish I could be in nyc for it. In 2016 I was working in Washington on election night and it was unforgettable drama 

I wish I could view it as entertainment in this way.

[HighPeakFox]

I'm dreading it. 

[Lionator]

I do genuinely think a lot of Americans are sick to death of their own hypocritical foreign policy. Even if Trump will make things worse long terms, there are some republicans who are offering a genuinely different foreign policy which isn’t just moral grandstanding over everything. 

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Lionator said:

I do genuinely think a lot of Americans are sick to death of their own hypocritical foreign policy. Even if Trump will make things worse long terms, there are some republicans who are offering a genuinely different foreign policy which isn’t just moral grandstanding over everything. 

I think it's a "when" rather than an "if" on that one.

 

I just wonder how understanding those who will suffer as a result of those and other policy decisions will be of that excuse.

[Lionator]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I think it's a "when" rather than an "if" on that one.

 

I just wonder how understanding those who will suffer as a result of those and other policy decisions will be of that excuse.

Problem is ‘I want peace’ is a much better electioneering tagline than ‘we’ll keep arming Ukraine, we’ll keep letting Israel bomb innocent Gaza’s ‘, even if it causes worse long term outcomes.