General News Thread

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, kenny said:

I thought it was called the 'Boriswave' not the 'Brexitwave'?

Do you remember "save our curry houses" in 2016?

 

Lol 

 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, kenny said:

I thought it was called the 'Boriswave' not the 'Brexitwave'?

Well, he was elected in 2019 with a pretty decent majority with that single issue being the cause, so perhaps those two terms are rather interchangeable. 

[kenny]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Well, he was elected in 2019 with a pretty decent majority with that single issue being the cause, so perhaps those two terms are rather interchangeable. 

Perhaps or perhaps not.

 

Perhaps a different PM wouldn't have opened the doors and Brexit had nothing to do with it.

[leicsmac]

Just now, kenny said:

Perhaps or perhaps not.

 

Perhaps a different PM wouldn't have opened the doors and Brexit had nothing to do with it.

@bovril (I think) has thrown up data here in the past indicating pretty clear and obvious correlation post-2016. 

 

If that increase is somehow coincidental or there is another cause that can be readily identified with superior evidence, then it would be interesting to hear about it. 

[bovril]

4 minutes ago, kenny said:

Perhaps or perhaps not.

 

Perhaps a different PM wouldn't have opened the doors and Brexit had nothing to do with it.

May probably wouldn't have done. The hostile environment architect no? 

 

But hard brexiters got rid of her for Boris 😂 

 

Patel and Badenoch iirc also advocated for relaxing on immigration restrictions from India and Nigeria. 

Edited 28 May by bovril

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, bovril said:

May probably wouldn't have done. The hostile environment architect no? 

 

But hard brexiters got rid of her for Boris 😂 

So either way, the media sections salivating for Boris, or Brexit, or both (and getting both) shouldn't get to act all shocked and lamenting now when the consequences of what they wanted become more apparent. 

Edited 28 May by leicsmac

[Sampson]

This culture wars thing is why I find the Reform thing so weird.

 

I think there's understandable reasons why people dislike the rapid cultural change, we can discuss it and about the causes be they immigration, technology, capitalism or whatever but that feels like a pretty basic evolutionary human emotion, but I think personally that started with the Americanisation and de-Europeanisation of the British economy, industry, political system and culture starting from when Thatcher got into power in 1979 and turned Britain into America's lapdog with an America-style tycoon economic system. And I think Farage clearly represents such a radical cultural change himself and this weird Americanisation and de-Europianisation of our culture and politics.

 

Reform and Farage just feel so Americanised and un-British to me. All this stuff about the flag, strong man leaders whon"say it like it is" and demanding we say the Lords prayer in council meetings and this weird stuff about "Judeo-Christian values" is so Americanised to me. The traditionalist symbol of Britain has always been the monarchy, we always used to say the Americans had that weird reverence to the flag and presidents because they didn't have a monarchy as a patriotic symbol. And since when has any British person born after about 1940 cared about this Jesus stuff? I remember how when the Simpsons was one of the big symbols of Americanisation in the 90s it being a topic of discussion how weird it was for Brits to see "the average family" they were supposed to represent still going to church every Sunday in the 1990s.

Edited 28 May by Sampson

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Sampson said:

This culture wars thing is why I find the Reform thing so weird.

 

I think there's understandable reasons why people dislike the rapid cultural change, we can discuss it and about the causes be they immigration, technology, capitalism or whatever but that feels like a pretty basic evolutionary human emotion, but I think personally that started with the Americanisation and de-Europeanisation of the British economy, industry, political system and culture starting from when Thatcher got into power in 1979 and turned Britain into America's lapdog. And I think Farage clearly represents such a radical cultural change himself and this weird Americanisation and de-Europnisation of our culture and politics.

 

Reform and Farage just feel so Americanised and un-British to me. All this stuff about the flag, strong man leaders whon"say it like it is" and demanding we say the Lords prayer in council meetimgs and this weird stuff about "Judeo-Christian values" is so Americanised to me. The traditionalist symbol of Britaij has always been the monarchy, we always used to say the Americans had that weird reverence to the flag and presidents because they didn't have a monarchy as a patriotic symbol. And since when has any British person born after about 1940 cared about this Jesus stuff? I remember how when the Simpsons was oneof tge big symbols of Americanisation in the 90s it being a topic of discussion how weird it was for Brits to see families still going yo church every Sunday in the 90s.

Quite right. 

 

I'll only add that imo given the kind of nationalism in the name of "preserving culture" that Trump and Farage etc speak of has been responsible for great many bodies in the past, the only reason I can think of for someone well-acquainted with that in the present to go for it is because they're totally OK with seeing more bodies. Just as long as they're not "their own".

[kenny]

45 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

@bovril (I think) has thrown up data here in the past indicating pretty clear and obvious correlation post-2016. 

 

If that increase is somehow coincidental or there is another cause that can be readily identified with superior evidence, then it would be interesting to hear about it. 

I think there may be a way we can clear this up.

 

Did we re-join the EU on the 5th September 2025 and I missed it?

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, kenny said:

I think there may be a way we can clear this up.

 

Did we re-join the EU on the 5th September 2025 and I missed it?

Not sure of the exact significance of that date, some elaboration would be welcomed.

[kenny]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Not sure of the exact significance of that date, some elaboration would be welcomed.

Mahmood was appointed Home Secretary and significantly reduced immigration.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, kenny said:

Mahmood was appointed Home Secretary and significantly reduced immigration.

Appreciate the clarification. 

 

In that case, I'm not sure why the Mail are making such a fuss about this now in the first instance (except, you know, sensationalism for clicks) and I'm not sure one HS coming in and addressing the matter doesn't mean that Brexit didn't mean it became a matter in the first instance too. 

[kenny]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Appreciate the clarification. 

 

In that case, I'm not sure why the Mail are making such a fuss about this now in the first instance (except, you know, sensationalism for clicks) and I'm not sure one HS coming in and addressing the matter doesn't mean that Brexit didn't mean it became a matter in the first instance too. 

The point about Brexit was that the high immigration was a political choice, one that resulted in the government being voted out for the least popular government on record.

 

You may argue that Boris choose to increase immigration to reduce the economic impact of Brexit, but that was his choice not a necessity.

 

To blame Brexit for high immigration is lazy and uneducated IMO. Mahmood is proving that political will was all that was needed to reduce it significantly. Incidentally, many of the policies introduced by Sunak had a significant impact on immigration, but there is no doubt Mahmood deserves a lot of credit.

 

As for the Mail, it does what it does, I don't pay any attention. But no amount of Mail clickbait makes the Boriswave anything to do with the UK's status in/out of the EU.

[bovril]

15 minutes ago, kenny said:

The point about Brexit was that the high immigration was a political choice, one that resulted in the government being voted out for the least popular government on record.

 

You may argue that Boris choose to increase immigration to reduce the economic impact of Brexit, but that was his choice not a necessity.

 

To blame Brexit for high immigration is lazy and uneducated IMO. Mahmood is proving that political will was all that was needed to reduce it significantly. Incidentally, many of the policies introduced by Sunak had a significant impact on immigration, but there is no doubt Mahmood deserves a lot of credit.

 

As for the Mail, it does what it does, I don't pay any attention. But no amount of Mail clickbait makes the Boriswave anything to do with the UK's status in/out of the EU.

It wasn't an inevitable result of leaving the EU but that doesn't change the fact that prominent leavers suggested on a few occasions that restrictions on non EU migrants, especially from the Commonwealth, should be relaxed, and obviously those places have larger, younger and poorer populations than Europe. In fact if I may go a bit tin foil hat here, I don't think it's a terrible stretch to conclude that a lot of brexit's financial backers were partially motivated by a desire to replace Europeans with rights under EU law with non Europeans who could be exploited more.

 

So no, it's not strictly cause-effect, more a not very surprising side effect.

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, kenny said:

The point about Brexit was that the high immigration was a political choice, one that resulted in the government being voted out for the least popular government on record.

 

You may argue that Boris choose to increase immigration to reduce the economic impact of Brexit, but that was his choice not a necessity.

 

To blame Brexit for high immigration is lazy and uneducated IMO. Mahmood is proving that political will was all that was needed to reduce it significantly. Incidentally, many of the policies introduced by Sunak had a significant impact on immigration, but there is no doubt Mahmood deserves a lot of credit.

 

As for the Mail, it does what it does, I don't pay any attention. But no amount of Mail clickbait makes the Boriswave anything to do with the UK's status in/out of the EU.

I see where you're coming from here, but I think the point still stands that increased non-EU migration was a corollary of Brexit - political will may address it but that doesn't mean much about the genesis of the matter. 

 

WRT the last paragraph, far too many people do pay attention to media sources like the Mail (to say nothing of other sources) engaged in scaremongering and hypocrisy, and in a democracy sadly ithat can affect political policymaking that then affects us all. But then migration is hardly the only issue - or even the biggest - for which that is true. The subversion of the very idea of truth is both far reaching and consequential, and will only get more so. 

[davieG]

[kenny]

40 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I see where you're coming from here, but I think the point still stands that increased non-EU migration was a corollary of Brexit - political will may address it but that doesn't mean much about the genesis of the matter. 

 

WRT the last paragraph, far too many people do pay attention to media sources like the Mail (to say nothing of other sources) engaged in scaremongering and hypocrisy, and in a democracy sadly ithat can affect political policymaking that then affects us all. But then migration is hardly the only issue - or even the biggest - for which that is true. The subversion of the very idea of truth is both far reaching and consequential, and will only get more so. 

The increased immigration was a political choice by Johnson. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

If it can be blamed on Brexit then I am blaming Tops continued promotion of Rudkin on Brexit too.

[BKLFox]

13 minutes ago, davieG said:

Another take away from that picture is that top 5 covers a 37yr period where as the bottom 5 are struggling to complete 10 

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, kenny said:

The increased immigration was a political choice by Johnson. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

If it can be blamed on Brexit then I am blaming Tops continued promotion of Rudkin on Brexit too.

That just sounds like a very convenient absolution of any kind of responsibility (big or small) for the current migration situation for anyone enamoured of Brexit, but I guess we'll leave it at that and simply differ. 

 

1 minute ago, BKLFox said:

Another take away from that picture is that top 5 covers a 37yr period where as the bottom 5 are struggling to complete 10 

Very true. 

 

The fast food nature of politics right now really doesn't lend itself to long term decision making, at just the time when it is really, really needed. 

[kenny]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

That just sounds like a very convenient absolution of any kind of responsibility (big or small) for the current migration situation for anyone enamoured of Brexit, but I guess we'll leave it at that and simply differ. 

 

Very true. 

 

The fast food nature of politics right now really doesn't lend itself to long term decision making, at just the time when it is really, really needed. 

With the lack of evidence to support your position I suppose we must.

 

Another hats off to Mahmood for resolving it either way, and if it was all down to Brexit to do so with that sceptre hanging over her is all the more impressive.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, kenny said:

With the lack of evidence to support your position I suppose we must.

 

Another hats off to Mahmood for resolving it either way, and if it was all down to Brexit to do so with that sceptre hanging over her is all the more impressive.

An accusation that is equally applied to your own position. 

 

Anyhow, for something different about the general topic, it's been said before but should be reiterated when this discussion comes about - seeking to turn nations into walled ethnic enclaves as some people wish will help neither the UK nor anyone in the long run (or maybe even the short run).

[Parafox]

23 hours ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

This is fantastic.  The rescuers are absolute hero's.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cewpqy948ero

I watched the documentary on the team effort to save the twelve kids in Thailand. British cavers along with others from around the world, combined to get them out alive. The whole thing was an amazing watch. Sadly one member of the Thai army died trying.

 

Tham Luang cave rescue - Wikipedia

 

 

[kenny]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

An accusation that is equally applied to your own position. 

 

Anyhow, for something different about the general topic, it's been said before but should be reiterated when this discussion comes about - seeking to turn nations into walled ethnic enclaves as some people wish will help neither the UK nor anyone in the long run (or maybe even the short run).

Again, I'll doff my cap to Mahmood as evidence.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, kenny said:

Again, I'll doff my cap to Mahmood as evidence.

And I can supply correlatory graphical data as mine (they've been shown here before), but I guess it's easy to make the argument that correlation doesn't equal causation if someone wanted, as easily as I could mention that one HS's work on the numbers doesn't prove by itself that political will alone is responsible or that Brexit is not. 

 

So we're at something of an impasse, which personally I think is fine - this isn't an exact hard science anyway. 

[Bellend Sebastian]

1 hour ago, Parafox said:

I watched the documentary on the team effort to save the twelve kids in Thailand. British cavers along with others from around the world, combined to get them out alive. The whole thing was an amazing watch. Sadly one member of the Thai army died trying.

 

Tham Luang cave rescue - Wikipedia

 

 

That's the one where Elon Musk called the British diver a paedo because he disrespected his shit miniature submarine. 

 

I'd have countered by asking why he's got a submarine for transporting children but hey not everyone has this gift