Leicester & Nottingham

[Disillusioned]

Were those three here backing Adams up last season? I'd like to know. A few people were including myself, HullFox and you chandler. I got called every name under the sun for sticking up for the guy because of the job he HAD done.

Had he stayed we may well have finished higher than we did under Levein. We may well of not been in the bottom three (I did warn this would happen when people wanted him out) But there was no real future under him if i'm honest. Looking back I don't really regret him going as the football was the worst I have honestly seen. We've seen some rubbish this year but nothing like I felt after watching a MA's game.

What I do regret is the appointment of Levein. I have backed him as much as humanly possible but I have always stated if we touched the bottom three after this amount of the season then the board have a serious decision to make!!!

Anyway back on topic...

I just disagree with you making MA out to be some kind of messiah. I mean to say "Under him we knew that any purple period of possession by LCFC would almost always end with our scoring and that if we conceded that we could hit back quickly" it's ludicrous.

Not as ludicrous as you suggest Babylon.

We managed two goals in each of four away games under MA last season. Given that the average spell of domination by an away side is two or three 10-15 minutes phases over the 90 that pretty much backs up my claim.

The team did indeed play 'hoofball' in the promo season ('Powerball') as we euphemisticly called it at the time but MA had no choice but to make the 'talent' at his disposal play that way. We were certainly not a hoofball outfit in the Prem. Everyone who actually went to games remarked on how the style of play had changed.

I have never suggested in any way at all that MA was a 'Messiah' (if that really was the case I would be arguing for his return but I am not) I recognize that an exceptionally gifted manager MIGHT just have kept is in the Prem (MON though is the only candidate who springs to mind who might have managed on our meagre resources). My complaint is that MA was hounded out by a minority of gobshites after a handful of games (even though form was significantly improving - 11 points from his last six matches) because he had the temerity to lose a couple of home games (if they had been on the road few people would have noticed).

When managers are hounded out like that it causes insecurity and turmoil. And this crisis is manifested at the weakest point - when we are away from home. In this regard, the facts speak for themselves. If the team was playing as well as some would like us believe than our away form would be a lot better than it is. Even if it was 'just not quite as good' on the road, the home form should compensate. But it is dire here too.

If changing a manager now is not advised because we are unlikely to get anyone better (even though we are rapidly reaching the point where we have nothing left to lose) then how much more is this sentiment true when a team is sitting in the top half of the table, when its form is improving and when there is 75% of the season left to go?

It is this massive contradiction which drives me crazy (as well as the petty vindictiveness of some mentally retarded small minded people who unfortunately make up a significant portion of our fan base).

[breadandcheese]

I have but one question for you Disillusioned/Chandler.

Do you consider us to have a better playing squad this season? With this I mean in terms of player ability rather than management or tactics.

[Babylon]

If changing a manager now is not advised because we are unlikely to get anyone better (even though we are rapidly reaching the point where we have nothing left to lose) then how much more is this sentiment true when a team is sitting in the top half of the table, when its form is improving and when there is 75% of the season left to go?

It is this massive contradiction which drives me crazy (as well as the petty vindictiveness of some mentally retarded small minded people who unfortunately make up a significant portion of our fan base).

I couldn't agree more about that.

[Thracian]

Well, the keys to the promotion season were:

1)paul dickov - signed by DAVE BASSET, not adams

2)brian deane - signed by DAVE BASSET, not adams

3)solid defence - Taggart, Elliot, Davidson, Sinclair, Walker. all good sides build from a solid defence, and adams couldn't go too far wrong with that back line really.

4)midfield legend - izzet, made everything tick in midfield, and it showed when he was missing. such class at adams disposal there.

fair play on adams for getting us promotion, but with the players he had, it wasn't exactly a miracle, we would have expected to be up around the top.

Just as an aside it's worth thinking about the player's you've mentioned as a key to what's been wrong with us this season.

Dickov. Genuine proven in-the-box goalscorer. We haven't had one and Fryatt may have arrived too late.

Deane. Genuine aerial striker. A threat to anyone. We haven't had one.

Defence: Taggart, Elliott, Davidson and Sinclair all had attacking potential with the centre-backs adding considerable weight to our set piece attacks. We don't have any of that apart from Stearman.

Muzzy. Williams should be our Muzzy but has underperformed until recently.

And there in five lines are many of the reasons we've failed this season. Not all, but a lot.

[Milky]

Just as an aside it's worth thinking about the player's you've mentioned as a key to what's been wrong with us this season.

Dickov. Genuine proven in-the-box goalscorer. We haven't had one and Fryatt may have arrived too late.

Deane. Genuine aerial striker. A threat to anyone. We haven't had one.

Defence: Taggart, Elliott, Davidson and Sinclair all had attacking potential with the centre-backs adding considerable weight to our set piece attacks. We don't have any of that apart from Stearman.

Muzzy. Williams should be our Muzzy but has underperformed until recently.

And there in five lines are many of the reasons we've failed this season. Not all, but a lot.

yeh, it is pretty interesting. another key in my opinion was billy mac in the defensive midfield role, he was the perfect foil for izzet, and i think it would be fair to say was a suprise success at leicester.

[Scow]

yeh, it is pretty interesting. another key in my opinion was billy mac in the defensive midfield role, he was the perfect foil for izzet, and i think it would be fair to say was a suprise success at leicester.

What we would do for a Billy McKinlay now. Kisnorbo isn't patch on him.

[Milky]

What we would do for a Billy McKinlay now. Kisnorbo isn't patch on him.

mckinlay was one of those players that you don't really notice during games, but in a good way, he just goes about doing his job in an efficient manner helping things tick nicely. you do unfortunately notice kisnorbo, he sticks out like a sore thumb as he clambers around in an ungainly fashion making backwards and sideways passes, often to the opposition.

[Disillusioned]

I have but one question for you Disillusioned/Chandler.

Do you consider us to have a better playing squad this season? With this I mean in terms of player ability rather than management or tactics.

Fair question b&c and you'll get a fair answer.

Player for player, on paper at least, this side is TECHNICALLY slightly better than the promo side. There is also more strength in depth. Unlike Mr Chandler, I don't think the SPL 'rejects' are bad players (more on that in a mo) but I do think overrall, the quality of the squad from MA's latter days has deteriorated (I think Connolly in particular was a big loss but beggars can't sniff at £2.5m).

As I said I disagree with him on the SPL rejects (you may be able to enlighten me about his thoughts on this subject because I have only scanned one or two of his posts) I don't think they are necessarily bad players. But there were a couple of problems with acquiring them.

Levein went back home to sign them because (a) they were the best that he had any real knowledge of and (b) they were the only lads that would be willing to follow him. If Levein had done any time at all in the Prem he would have had greater exposure to real quality (by Championship standards at least) and he would have had the necessary pull to bring them to the Walkers (this is the least discussed weakness of the Levein regime).

The problem with the SPL is that outside the Auld Firm the standard is vey low, 50% of the rest are Championship level and the remainder about Division One. There are only a handful of outstanding players in this league. Gates for most teams are between 10 - 15,000 (some can't even manage that). Pitches are very heavy for most of the season and the work rate of players leaves a lot to be desired.

With the right kind of man management, team bonding our SPL exiles could be successfully integrated into the side (yes even Sylla, MDV and dare I say it, Kisnorbo, but maybe not as a starter) though I think it unlikely that any of them could have a starting berth if we ever reached the Prem (possible exception of Hughes).

The main problem is that these players (along with others) have underperformed. Although out and under performance can often be subjective there is a telling little stat that often indicates/contra indicates whether a side is as good or as bad as its league position suggests and that is GOAL DIFFERENCE.

For a side occupying a relegation slot we have quite a respectable goal difference. We have only lost by a margin greater than two once all season (Everton last seaon where the best example of a team that was flattered by its league position - their goal differnce was near neutral for much of the time). This almost certainly means that the side is under achieving.

I would have loved to have seen how a motivated Smith-Williams-Joey-Hughes would have performed on a regular basis. As other have already pointed out that would be the star midfield in the Championship.

Now, drop your bombshell b&c...

[Guest]

The only significant lead we lost in the Championship under Adams was a 2-0 at QPR after Connolly was harshly sent off having had the shit kicked and elbowed out of him for an hour.

Of course that had nothing to do with moving our centre-half up front after Connolly was dismissed. The CH in question was having one of his best games in that position for us, and had the QPR forwards in his pocket. After conceding the first goal, I remember him having a rant at the bench, and you could tell he wanted to go back into defence, but dear old Mickeh, tactical genius that he is, decided he was right. And wasn't he.

And now to that fool .... Don't you remember HOOFBALL you Twat? .....you feckin' jerk.

That really helps your argument. A sign of reasonable and intelligent debate.

[Sir Fynwy]

And now to that fool who reckons that any idiot (including Levein, I take it) could have got us promotion a couple of seasons back as we had the best squad in the division. I find this utterly hilarious. Don't you remember HOOFBALL you Twat? Is Hoofball a sign of a great squad then? And can't you remember moaning constantly about the age of the squad?

Getting to you mate? I tell you what lets meet up at your karate club and work out your problems.

[teblin]

Hold on, When adams took over we were in the S**t!

He got us promoted ok, we had alot of expensive players at the club, but you would've undersood if the players just gave up.

We were 11th when Micky left 4 points off the play offs!

I don't think we would be where we are now if he would have stayed!

I'm not a massive adams fan but he wasn't that bad!

You think of what we had before!

One of the main reasons we are in this mess still in Peter Taylor, And john elsom to not having the forsight to get rid of him earlier than he did.

[breadandcheese]

Disillusioned,

I appreciate your honest response. I have no bombshell to drop, I was merely enquiring as to how you rated the quality of the squad. By my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong), you think the current squad has more technical ability but lacks certain talents and abilities to be considered stronger. I would be interested to know more on what abilities you consider the squad to be lacking for at the moment I assume them to be determination and possibly experience.

I agree with your assessment of underperformance. I, too, use your method of goal difference as a gauge. It is with this that questions have to be asked of the manager, for I have always believed that if a team has the players, yet underperforms, the management must be questioned.

I will say that I support and hope Levein and the team can start chalking up some wins, for I think Levein is quite an honest and decent guy. Some of the players he has brought in have behaved appallingly by not playing in a manner which befits the trust that Levein has placed in them. Conversely, with some of the players he has brought in, we have the basis for a good team. However, I openly admit that my support is wavering due to our appalling league campaign. After the next game or two, if results continue poorly, I will hold my hands up and back your campaign for him to go.

However, this does still not change my opinion of Micky Adams. We have a technically better squad now. Taking the hypothetical situation of Micky still in charge, would he have signed as technically gifted players? His track record suggests not. This is based on signing 3-4 techinically good players as opposed to the whole of his transfers. Granted, we would probably be higher up the league, however, I always believe that quality outs in the end but needs help from a good manager.

So here's my thoughts. Maybe Levein is not the man for the job and you are right. Yet at the same time, he has laid the foundations for another manager to come in and turn this club into something. Any new manager walking into Leicester today would have an easier rebuilding job than Levein faced on Micky's departure, it would simply be a case of motivating and gelling a team.

So in all, I still think Micky was not the man and feel Levein is following him in that respect.

With the start of a technically able squad, maybe I will once again see a technically gifted Leicester side destroying opponents (I only enjoyed this under McGhee for a short period of time). Oh to have watched the Leicester side of the seventies.

[Chrysalis]

Thanks for bringing up the point that basset signed dickov and deane it proves another point of mine how well bassett knows this league and whats needed to get out of it.

I agree adams is a better manager then craig, to compare the 2 managers I am only using adams champnioship record as its the same level of football. Concerning the age of squad length of contracts etc. I think this was dictated by the board, they probably told adams after relegation get us straight back up I dont care how you do it, just do it. So he had to buy experienced proven players. When craig joined he was probably told, we want the age lowering players on longer contracts and the wage bill cut. So then craig did what he did. Now the important bit, the results, this is where their managerial skills come in and craig is crucially a lot worse then adams in particular on away form. Craig hasnt had a admin to deal with, transfer embargo etc. He has been able to bring in players whilst adams was tied to a squad which was ageing and used to losing games. As norwich and palace discovered this year it isnt easy to change a losing mentallity thats why it took norwich 4 months to start winning games again. Adams did it right from the first game against watford.

An interesting aspect I noticed also is that teams promoted via playoffs usually do well since I think they have the winning mentality right upto the end of promotion season whilst if you win promotion comfortably and ease off a losing mentallity kicks in before the prem season even starts. Not always the case but seems to have an affect of some sort on promoted teams by looking at history.

[davieG]

Thanks for bringing up the point that basset signed dickov and deane it proves another point of mine how well bassett knows this league and whats needed to get out of it.

Having said that they were supposed to be players we needed to stay in the Premier as we still had a chance of staying up. Dickov proved he could play there, eventually but under Adams, as for Deane he was never going to make an impact in the Premier.

[Manwell Pablo]

I'm sorry but Micky inherited a side that was good enough to get it's self promoted. It still had the likes of Elliot, Izzet and Dickov/Dean in it who were all top 1st division/prem players. My main beef with Adams is he should of kept us in the premier league. If he had sorted that disgraceful defense out in January instead of signing Nik the Greek, or better still signed better players to begin with. The attacking players were easily good enough to stay up. The only decent defender he signed all season was Thatcher.

Certain people question Craig Leveins motivational skills, however for some reason Adams teams suffered from somthing just as bad and that was a lack of nerve. QPR was not the only time it was evident, 3-0 up against Sheffield United? 3-2 all of sudden? who was fearing the worst then, it was a bit to close for me.

think about the team we would be fielding this season, even if it was doing slightly better, there would be nothing for the future. Where as the team we have can grow into a prem challenging team in time. Im sure of that, if Craig does go then I have no sympathy as he hasn't got the reasults. But let me make this very clear, if the foundations he layed here come good, we owe him a great deal of respect for what he did here.

[Disillusioned]

Of course that had nothing to do with moving our centre-half up front after Connolly was dismissed. The CH in question was having one of his best games in that position for us, and had the QPR forwards in his pocket. After conceding the first goal, I remember him having a rant at the bench, and you could tell he wanted to go back into defence, but dear old Mickeh, tactical genius that he is, decided he was right. And wasn't he.

That really helps your argument. A sign of reasonable and intelligent debate.

1) You may recollect our match against the Blades at the Lane in the promo season. We were a goal up and a man down and we lost because we didn't have an outlet and they had us pinned down in our own half for the remainder of the game. That's what MA tried to correct in the QPR match. He went by the coaching manual but it aint foolproof.

2) I supplied reasoned comment together with the insult. If you read the post to which I was replying you will see that my invective was merited.

[Disillusioned]

Disillusioned,

I appreciate your honest response. I have no bombshell to drop, I was merely enquiring as to how you rated the quality of the squad. By my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong), you think the current squad has more technical ability but lacks certain talents and abilities to be considered stronger. I would be interested to know more on what abilities you consider the squad to be lacking for at the moment I assume them to be determination and possibly experience.

I agree with your assessment of underperformance. I, too, use your method of goal difference as a gauge. It is with this that questions have to be asked of the manager, for I have always believed that if a team has the players, yet underperforms, the management must be questioned.

I will say that I support and hope Levein and the team can start chalking up some wins, for I think Levein is quite an honest and decent guy. Some of the players he has brought in have behaved appallingly by not playing in a manner which befits the trust that Levein has placed in them. Conversely, with some of the players he has brought in, we have the basis for a good team. However, I openly admit that my support is wavering due to our appalling league campaign. After the next game or two, if results continue poorly, I will hold my hands up and back your campaign for him to go.

However, this does still not change my opinion of Micky Adams. We have a technically better squad now. Taking the hypothetical situation of Micky still in charge, would he have signed as technically gifted players? His track record suggests not. This is based on signing 3-4 techinically good players as opposed to the whole of his transfers. Granted, we would probably be higher up the league, however, I always believe that quality outs in the end but needs help from a good manager.

So here's my thoughts. Maybe Levein is not the man for the job and you are right. Yet at the same time, he has laid the foundations for another manager to come in and turn this club into something. Any new manager walking into Leicester today would have an easier rebuilding job than Levein faced on Micky's departure, it would simply be a case of motivating and gelling a team.

So in all, I still think Micky was not the man and feel Levein is following him in that respect.

With the start of a technically able squad, maybe I will once again see a technically gifted Leicester side destroying opponents (I only enjoyed this under McGhee for a short period of time). Oh to have watched the Leicester side of the seventies.

The 1970's was my era and indeed the Leicester side was very easy on the eye, though there were a few seasons when we had trouble finding the net, drew a few too many and seemed to be underachieving generally (when compared with what Derby did in the early '70's and F****t di later on). Sound familiar?

Re. technically gifted players...that's one for a night of one's finest claret and camembert. How about this analogy to start us off.

Remember when a certain wibbly wobbly merchant made his debut at Old Trafford against Bolton a couple of season back? Never had one seen so many step-overs during the course of an afternoon. At last the new Maradona had arrived. Or had he? Defenders started to leave their calling cards with him so he retaliated by going down before they could whip 'em out. But he is still a technical genius.

Probably more of a technical genius than an ugly, scruffy kid who has all the sprinting grace of an enraged hippo. But he does loads of mundane things that the child prodigy can't do. He runs (reasonably quickly) all afternoon and has the heart of a lion. He passes to unmarked team mates before anyone else realises they are in space. He gets into the box early. He makes full contact when he heads and he shoots powerfully and reasonably accurately with both feet from outside the box. He is a decathlete of a footballer, a complete all rounder, probably the best British player ever (yes that includes Edwards, Matthews and BEST).

But technically he is not as good as that show pony whose end product is less than Ryan Giggs.'

[Chrysalis]

Having said that they were supposed to be players we needed to stay in the Premier as we still had a chance of staying up. Dickov proved he could play there, eventually but under Adams, as for Deane he was never going to make an impact in the Premier.

I think basset was preparing for a promotion campaign after relegation but we will never know.

[Guest]

1) You may recollect our match against the Blades at the Lane in the promo season. We were a goal up and a man down and we lost because we didn't have an outlet and they had us pinned down in our own half for the remainder of the game. That's what MA tried to correct in the QPR match. He went by the coaching manual but it aint foolproof.

Not a fair comparison, is it. One game we were a goal down, and liable to be broken down. The other, we were two up, and not looking like conceding. I would have thought messing around with the defence would be the last thing a tactically astute manager would do.

2) I supplied reasoned comment together with the insult. If you read the post to which I was replying you will see that my invective was merited.

I disagree. Still any excuse with you, eh?

[Milky]

I think basset was preparing for a promotion campaign after relegation but we will never know.

i'm almost certain that's what basset was doing, we have to be grateful to him for getting dickov and deane in, at least he gave us something to show for all the money he bled us dry of..

[Disillusioned]

Not a fair comparison, is it. One game we were a goal down, and liable to be broken down. The other, we were two up, and not looking like conceding. I would have thought messing around with the defence would be the last thing a tactically astute manager would do.

I disagree. Still any excuse with you, eh?

Lisa, like most minx's you appear to be suffering from 'Oppositional Defiance Disorder.'

Forget your Ritalin again did you?