Surreal Madrid Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 So you actualy believe that the police were glad that some morons decided to rob a kiosk and force it's closure because it gave them the chance to steam in and use their batons? And a question that i asked last night has still not been answered by anyone on here. If during the return fixture at the crisp bowl Derby fans tried robbing a kiosk and then started trying to damage your stadium,would you want the police to leave the area and let them carry on or would you want them to go and sort them out? Have to agree with you - it was like a bunch of six year olds who had had their sweets taken away.
gatesheadfox Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 So you actualy believe that the police were glad that some morons decided to rob a kiosk and force it's closure because it gave them the chance to steam in and use their batons? And a question that i asked last night has still not been answered by anyone on here. If during the return fixture at the crisp bowl Derby fans tried robbing a kiosk and then started trying to damage your stadium,would you want the police to leave the area and let them carry on or would you want them to go and sort them out? i'd be very suprised if they did that. in all honesty the police had enough numbers to have left the bar open and arrested whoever was involved, had they done that i believe noone would be discussing this now. i was there on saturday at the time but was one of the many who were purely just annoyed at the reaction taken to a small group which escalated into something ridiculous. the police's behaviour all day was questionable, they were far to heavy handed with people for little reason which meant more than just the usual morons became involved with the day being a disgrace
ossieram Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 i'd be very suprised if they did that. in all honesty the police had enough numbers to have left the bar open and arrested whoever was involved, had they done that i believe noone would be discussing this now. i was there on saturday at the time but was one of the many who were purely just annoyed at the reaction taken to a small group which escalated into something ridiculous. the police's behaviour all day was questionable, they were far to heavy handed with people for little reason which meant more than just the usual morons became involved with the day being a disgrace Do you not think that if the police had just moved in and try to arrest the people that started the trouble that you would have got a the same reaction from other trouble makers that were there. And as i said on another thread the Derbyshire plod get info of spotters from Leicestershire plod and react accordingly. So if the info was that people were travelling with your normal support that were likely to cause trouble they will not take any chances. And quite a few of your fellow foxes have said that there were people there on saturday who were not football fans. You reap what you sow and i'm afraid it's the innocent that suffer.
Leicfox Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 Do you not think that if the police had just moved in and try to arrest the people that started the trouble that you would have got a the same reaction from other trouble makers that were there. And as i said on another thread the Derbyshire plod get info of spotters from Leicestershire plod and react accordingly. So if the info was that people were travelling with your normal support that were likely to cause trouble they will not take any chances. And quite a few of your fellow foxes have said that there were people there on saturday who were not football fans. You reap what you sow and i'm afraid it's the innocent that suffer. That wraps it up in a nutshell.
breadandcheese Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 Do you not think that if the police had just moved in and try to arrest the people that started the trouble that you would have got a the same reaction from other trouble makers that were there. And as i said on another thread the Derbyshire plod get info of spotters from Leicestershire plod and react accordingly. So if the info was that people were travelling with your normal support that were likely to cause trouble they will not take any chances. And quite a few of your fellow foxes have said that there were people there on saturday who were not football fans. You reap what you sow and i'm afraid it's the innocent that suffer. Too right. All this talk of frog-marching to and from the station being provocation, police being heavy handed. If the police have specific intelligence of groups of people there to cause trouble, they are being more negligent to the average fan, in ignoring the problem and adopting a laissez-faire approach.
Swedging Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 Too right. All this talk of frog-marching to and from the station being provocation, police being heavy handed. If the police have specific intelligence of groups of people there to cause trouble, they are being more negligent to the average fan, in ignoring the problem and adopting a laissez-faire approach. And it scarcely seems frog-marching anyway. I always thought that frog-marching was when your arms were grabbed from behind and you were pushed forward. A heavy, stroppy escort seems all that was in place here - similar to the escort in Leicester some other (Plymouth?) fans were moaning about in here a couple of weeks ago.
gatesheadfox Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 i can't for one moment suggest that the behaviour of some fans was justifiable. but in closing the bar instead of just making arrests the number of people frustrated and involved was made worse. the majority of people who were there were going mental was purely down to as some have said "the kids having their sweeties taken off them", most of those would not have even noticed a few idiots being arrested
Thracian Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 So you actualy believe that the police were glad that some morons decided to rob a kiosk and force it's closure because it gave them the chance to steam in and use their batons? And a question that i asked last night has still not been answered by anyone on here. If during the return fixture at the crisp bowl Derby fans tried robbing a kiosk and then started trying to damage your stadium,would you want the police to leave the area and let them carry on or would you want them to go and sort them out? If you ask my opinion on whether some police officers were glad to steam in I'd say yes. Indeed I'd imagine some police officers feel as some fans do, that the troublemakers deserve a good hiding which is perhaps understandable considering some of the things they did and some of the songs they were singing. What I'm concerned about is: a) The potential for that approach to get out of hand with potentially ridiculous consequences all round. b) The suffering of people who became accidentally involved in doing no more than perhaps going down to use the loo or to get something to eat. From what I could tell, the potential for trouble gathered pace from the time Derby fans joined Leicester fans on the train at Long Eaton. The ironic thing about all this is that while some people seem to condone or accept the Police being aggressive in dealing with a difficult situation, the reaction if something developed as happened in France where the fan got shot and killed, would been quite different, judging by the French response. I would rather some proper thought were given to those sort of things not happening and not being allowed to develop in the first place. I cannot imagine a whole lot of the fans I saw in the concourse are fans whose names appear on the City register.
Thracian Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 i'd be very suprised if they did that. in all honesty the police had enough numbers to have left the bar open and arrested whoever was involved, had they done that i believe noone would be discussing this now. i was there on saturday at the time but was one of the many who were purely just annoyed at the reaction taken to a small group which escalated into something ridiculous. the police's behaviour all day was questionable, they were far to heavy handed with people for little reason which meant more than just the usual morons became involved with the day being a disgrace It shows you were there cos that seems a fair summary to me.
ossieram Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 So now i return to this question. If during the return fixture at the crisp bowl Derby fans tried robbing a kiosk and then started trying to damage your stadium,would you want the police to leave the area and let them carry on or would you want them to go and sort them out? Any takers?
BartonFox Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 i can't for one moment suggest that the behaviour of some fans was justifiable. but in closing the bar instead of just making arrests the number of people frustrated and involved was made worse. the majority of people who were there were going mental was purely down to as some have said "the kids having their sweeties taken off them", most of those would not have even noticed a few idiots being arrested It was going to go off at half time regardless of any kiosk intervention, it was just a day for it. The actions of the police reminded of the last day at Filbert Street when they completely over reacted to a man collapsing in SK1. Instead of coming in to rescue the poor fella they came from front and back and started pulling people out and inflaming a serious situation. The rest of the half there were non stop confrontations and a half time the back concourse was much worse than Saturday. In the end when they retreated it all calmed down and everyone got back to the day. So in summary, Saturday was always going to go off, but Thracian does have a point about the OB's tactics and others have a point about the chavvy wannabes who 'steamed in' and sang about 'Harry Roberts'.
breadandcheese Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 The ironic thing about all this is that while some people seem to condone or accept the Police being aggressive in dealing with a difficult situation, the reaction if something developed as happened in France where the fan got shot and killed, would been quite different, judging by the French response. I'm not really sure what relevance the recent incident in France has. It is a completely different incident. Nobody in France is criticising the police for it. Just so I am sure, you are referring to the shooting of a Paris St Germain fan after their recent Uefa Cup tie.
Thracian Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 I'm not really sure what relevance the recent incident in France has. It is a completely different incident. Nobody in France is criticising the police for it. Just so I am sure, you are referring to the shooting of a Paris St Germain fan after their recent Uefa Cup tie. I've never sought to debate the rights or wrongs of the shooting in France I am just pointing out what can happen when there's a violent reaction to any incident. I could just as easily have mentioned the innocent "terrorist" shot dead in London. The shooting came first and the questions came afterwards. Not much use to the dead bloke and his family that.
breadandcheese Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 i can't for one moment suggest that the behaviour of some fans was justifiable. but in closing the bar instead of just making arrests the number of people frustrated and involved was made worse. the majority of people who were there were going mental was purely down to as some have said "the kids having their sweeties taken off them", most of those would not have even noticed a few idiots being arrested I'm not a police officer, so have never had to deal with people looking for trouble, but if you have intelligence of say 20-30 people together in a group, looking to cause trouble, and one of those has committed theft, I don't believe that sending 2-3 officers to arrest the thief will stop everything kicking off. If anything, it will just leave the 2-3 officers outnumbered, overly exposed and open to a good beating. At which point, it becomes more fraught than before because not only do the police have to worry about containing trouble, but also pouring into the middle of a fight to rescue their officers.
ossieram Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 So now i return to this question. If during the return fixture at the crisp bowl Derby fans tried robbing a kiosk and then started trying to damage your stadium,would you want the police to leave the area and let them carry on or would you want them to go and sort them out? Any takers? HOOF. This question seems to be getting ignored. So is it because it was Leicester fans that were caught up in it that some of you think the Police should have left them to it or would you expect them to leave other fans to damage your own ground.
The People's Hero Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 The question isn't getting ignored. Leicester fans and the police were both at fault in the incident. The fact they are Leicester fans rather than fans of another team makes no difference to me at all. Of course they shouldn't have been left to damage the ground.
breadandcheese Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 I've never sought to debate the rights or wrongs of the shooting I am just pointing out what can happen when there's a violent reaction to any incident. I could just as easily have mentioned the innocent "terrorist" shot dead in London. The shooting came first and the questions came afterwards. Not much use to the dead bloke and his family that. I believe the French incident was as follows: An undercover police officer ran in to protect an opposing team's fan who was being chased by a group of 20 or so known hooligans from Paris Saint Germain's hardcore element. The undercover police officer jumped in to shield the guy as best he could even though he was heavily outnumbered 20-1, regardless of his own safety. He tried teargas to disperse the thugs, but this didn't work and so reluctantly drew his gun. People in France have been supportive of the officer, who took a beating to save a random fan who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The spark for Paris Saint Germain fans; Their team got battered 4-2. I believe France's interior minister has said that they must look to England with the success that has been had in fighting hooliganism in our game. Either way, I think your analogies for debating policing tactics at football are shambolic.
Thracian Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 The more than interesting question was asked earlier by another poster but has not, as far as I am aware been answered and that is: "If the Police were too heavy handed or at fault in other ways for their approach to crowd control before and during the Derby match, what should the approach have been instead?
Kilworthfox Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 The more than interesting question was asked earlier by another poster but has not, as far as I am aware been answered and that is: "If the Police were too heavy handed or at fault in other ways for their approach to crowd control before and during the Derby match, what should the approach have been instead? Before the OB should be aware that trouble may happen and i could understand if they wanted to keep away fans in a group but the OB should still be have in a decent manner to away fans not acting like twots and saying this is the way it is so shut up and at half time if a few were causing trouble or stealing then they should be nicked just like everyone else in society, the rules should not change because people support a football club. You would not see the OB getting their trunchons out and being heavy handed wacking all the other customers in wollies if someone was being a bit of a dick would you
Head Honcho Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 Someone should find out IF any child was assaulted because NO ONE on this forum has so far said THEY saw it. It is all stuff and nonsense based on the fanciful tales of some impressionable teenagers. No fact. Anyone who did see what happened to that nipper should make a formal complaint to the police and it must be investigated if no one complains then nothing will be done.
Master Fox Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 I’ve seen some of the video clips of the half time incident; it all seems to be completely over exaggerated IMO
gatesheadfox Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 the question was answered. i said i didnt expect it would happen in this manner, hopefully anyway... the fans shouldnt have been trying to steal things, that goes without saying. but once it had happened the police had enough numbers to arrest a handful of people. i may be wrong but i felt the reason it got out of hand was that they chose to annoy everyone instead of punishing a small minded group
gatesheadfox Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 I’ve seen some of the video clips of the half time incident; it all seems to be completely over exaggerated IMO it was a large group of people singing about hating derby with a small number of idiots chucking pints and being agressive
The People's Hero Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 Sounds like the average night out in a Scream pub or Life or sommat.
Master Fox Posted 27 November 2006 Posted 27 November 2006 it was a large group of people singing about hating derby with a small number of idiots chucking pints and being agressive You always get that at any away game especially matches at Derby, Cov & Forest! There are always a couple of pissed up blokes causing trouble somewhere. Its goes as part of following Leicester City away I'm afraid. It’s never been any different
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