Letting our Children down!

[AoWW]

As with Lisa I'm not sure what your point is. You seem to be saying that private schools despite the better behaviour and better exam results are worse than failing state schools.

Parents want their children to succeed at school so that they can get a better job, earn a better income and have a better life than they themselves had. There seems to be anecdotal evidence that independent school children get to the better universities, get the best jobs in the media, politics and business. I really don't see what's wrong with wanting your kids to have a piece of that.

*sigh* Yes, it was a long post but did you even read it? Because it seems you're only willing to acknowledge a point of view that marries with your own. Perhaps that's why you're 'missing the point' Lisa made as well? Academically, independent schools do a very good job - I've not said otherwise. You're clearly of the opinion that independent schools are so much better based purely on their exam results and, if all you want for your children is good grades = successful career = financial security then I'm hardly going to convince you otherwise. Independent schools are worse than state schools, in my opinion, in the level of care they provide for children. Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't be concerned about your young child being left with no adult supervision at playtimes? Believe me, that was not a one-off incident, nor was it exclusive to that school - it's a common occurrence in independent schools where staff do not feel inclined to do any additional duties that are not sufficiently 'high-profile'. There are many other cases of 'neglect' that I could cite but I hardly feel it's appropriate on an open forum.

I was simply giving you the benefit of my experience in two contrasting schools in the hope that you might at least take off your blinkers and see that independent schools - whilst they do have good points - aren't necessarily the Utopia you seem to imagine.

Oh, and incidentally - on the subject of your youngest's dyslexia / dyscalculia... you might want to consider that in an independent school they have little sympathy for any perceived 'weakness' in a child's academic potential. At least in the state system you were able - eventually - to get the backing and support of outside agencies to force the school to provide help and intervention. If you think you struggled for this to be acknowledged and provision made in the state system, you've no idea of the battle you'd have had in the independent sector where their is no 'leverage' for parents who disagree with the provision made for those with specific learning difficulties.

[Father Ted]

*sigh* Yes, it was a long post but did you even read it? Because it seems you're only willing to acknowledge a point of view that marries with your own. Perhaps that's why you're 'missing the point' Lisa made as well? Academically, independent schools do a very good job - I've not said otherwise. You're clearly of the opinion that independent schools are so much better based purely on their exam results and, if all you want for your children is good grades = successful career = financial security then I'm hardly going to convince you otherwise. Independent schools are worse than state schools, in my opinion, in the level of care they provide for children. Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't be concerned about your young child being left with no adult supervision at playtimes? Believe me, that was not a one-off incident, nor was it exclusive to that school - it's a common occurrence in independent schools where staff do not feel inclined to do any additional duties that are not sufficiently 'high-profile'. There are many other cases of 'neglect' that I could cite but I hardly feel it's appropriate on an open forum.

I was simply giving you the benefit of my experience in two contrasting schools in the hope that you might at least take off your blinkers and see that independent schools - whilst they do have good points - aren't necessarily the Utopia you seem to imagine.

I go to a private school and that is certainly not the case there. The sentence about it not being a one-off incident, I think you will find that it is. In fact, all of the negatives that you have stated about independent schools, I disagree with, it certainly doesn't happen at my school. I think you will find that at independent schools, the teachers are much more organised and willing to work which in turn has a positive effect on the children to work too and gain better grades.

Oh, and incidentally - on the subject of your youngest's dyslexia / dyscalculia... you might want to consider that in an independent school they have little sympathy for any perceived 'weakness' in a child's academic potential. At least in the state system you were able - eventually - to get the backing and support of outside agencies to force the school to provide help and intervention. If you think you struggled for this to be acknowledged and provision made in the state system, you've no idea of the battle you'd have had in the independent sector where their is no 'leverage' for parents who disagree with the provision made for those with specific learning difficulties.

Well, a couple of my friends are very dyslexic but they get extra support with extra English lessons.

[AoWW]

I go to a private school and that is certainly not the case there. The sentence about it not being a one-off incident, I think you will find that it is. In fact, all of the negatives that you have stated about independent schools, I disagree with, it certainly doesn't happen at my school. I think you will find that at independent schools, the teachers are much more organised and willing to work which in turn has a positive effect on the children to work too and gain better grades.

How can you be so sure that my experience was a one-off incident? Perhaps you've been particularly fortunate with the private school you attend? Obviously we've both had different experiences and have contrasting views based on that, so we're really not going to reach an agreement. I would urge anyone to check out any school they are thinking of sending their child to very carefully. However, people seem far more casual in their approach to 'vetting' independent schools and blithely assume they will provide exemplary levels of education and care - it clearly isn't always the case.

*Edit: Father Ted goes to a very good school.*

[Webbo]

I was simply giving you the benefit of my experience in two contrasting schools in the hope that you might at least take off your blinkers and see that independent schools - whilst they do have good points - aren't necessarily the Utopia you seem to imagine.

I did read all your post. I wasn't being facetious just trying to save some space.

I have some experience of independant schools in so far as I do some decorating at 1 every holiday. The teachers I've met are nothing special and the facilaties are worse than the comprehensive school I went to in the 70s. I can't deny that the exam results though which are usually a 100/99 % pass rate.

Oh, and incidentally - on the subject of your youngest's dyslexia / dyscalculia... you might want to consider that in an independent school they have little sympathy for any perceived 'weakness' in a child's academic potential. At least in the state system you were able - eventually - to get the backing and support of outside agencies to force the school to provide help and intervention. If you think you struggled for this to be acknowledged and provision made in the state system, you've no idea of the battle you'd have had in the independent sector where their is no 'leverage' for parents who disagree with the provision made for those with specific learning difficulties.

I'm not criticizing all state schools, far from it. Roundhill where my youngest will be going next term is an excellent school that I won't hear a word against. My main gripe was with the primary school my daughter went to which was by any measure an awful school but where the headmistress had the attitude of 'we're the experts, we are doing a brilliant job despite all the evidence to the contrary'.

[breadandcheese]

Seems to me from my experience that any school is likely to have good and bad teachers and good and bad parents.

Good Parents/Bad Teacher - Some hope

Bad Parent/Good Teacher - Very little hope

If it's not right from the home side of things, the kids are likely to become the next generation of benefit dependant non contributors to society.

Hear hear.

[Guest]

My main gripe was with the primary school my daughter went to which was by any measure an awful school but where the headmistress had the attitude of 'we're the experts, we are doing a brilliant job despite all the evidence to the contrary'.

Evidence based on exam results (SATs), and here we are, back full circle.

[Webbo]

Evidence based on exam results (SATs), and here we are, back full circle.

No, based on the evidence of my own eyes and the teaching of my children. In those circumstances I think I'm qualified to judge.

[Guest]

No, based on the evidence of my own eyes and the teaching of my children. In those circumstances I think I'm qualified to judge.

I take it all other children have come out of the school disadvantaged as well, and other parents agree with you?

[Webbo]

I take it all other children have come out of the school disadvantaged as well, and other parents agree with you?

I don't talk to all of them but I've heard plenty of others calling the school too. Added to the Ofsted reports that's pretty damning.

[Guest]

I don't talk to all of them but I've heard plenty of others calling the school too. Added to the Ofsted reports that's pretty damning.

Then why haven't you gone and spoken to the head about your concerns? Or the board of Governors? Or taken it even further by lodging a complaint with the LEA? If going to that school was so detrimental to your child, you could have changed to a better school. Parents in Warwickshire try that one all the time.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Why are private schools called public schools?

How do you let Children down? Do they have a valve or is there a knot to unite?

Can you be MORE dyslexic than someone esel?

Does dyscalculia count?

[Webbo]

Then why haven't you gone and spoken to the head about your concerns? Or the board of Governors? Or taken it even further by lodging a complaint with the LEA? If going to that school was so detrimental to your child, you could have changed to a better school. Parents in Warwickshire try that one all the time.

My youngest who has severe dyslexia (it does exist believe me) was statemented. Despite the extra funding provided to the the school the headmistress didn't provide any of the extra help that the authorities demanded and refused to see us to discuss the matter. It was only after we contacted an outside agency who fought our corner that the school provided it's obligations.

I really don't see the need for all this hostility. I only want what's best for my kids.

Why are private schools called public schools?

How do you let Children down? Do they have a valve or is there a knot to unite?

Can you be MORE dyslexic than someone esel?

Does dyscalculia count?

Tihs.

[Guest]

I really don't see the need for all this hostility. I only want what's best for my kids.

Hostile? I am only asking a question.

[BoneDog]

And what are we basing this sweeping generalisation on?

I don't really know. I just hear parents talk about how schools have gone downhill over the last 15 years or so. People I know, people in newspapers and news people talking about exam paper standards.

I also hear that our government is saying that we will be soon teaching 5 or 6 year olds sex education? If this is true then I will NEVER let my kids go to school until they are at High School age. It makes me sick. (if it is true that is)

[Guest Bilo]

Seems to me from my experience that any school is likely to have good and bad teachers and good and bad parents.

Good Parents/Bad Teacher - Some hope

Bad Parent/Good Teacher - Very little hope

If it's not right from the home side of things, the kids are likely to become the next generation of benefit dependant non contributors to society.

Very true this.

The standards inside the classroom are only the tip of the iceberg. External factors are absolutely paramount to a child's education.

[Lord Nibblington]

I don't really know. I just hear parents talk about how schools have gone downhill over the last 15 years or so. People I know, people in newspapers and news people talking about exam paper standards.

And what we people saying about our schools 15 years ago? About education and the development of of youth? That is was all better than it ever was?

Hardly.

The condition of education in this country can not be blamed on one factor, and making sweeping generalisations, which happens far too often is what usually results in some halfwitted scheme that actually makes things worse.

[Lord Nibblington]

Seems to me from my experience that any school is likely to have good and bad teachers and good and bad parents.

Good Parents/Bad Teacher - Some hope

Bad Parent/Good Teacher - Very little hope

If it's not right from the home side of things, the kids are likely to become the next generation of benefit dependant non contributors to society.

Pretty much this.

I would also add that in some cases, you will often see much more work, and much more inventive teaching in the schools which are labelled "failing" simply because it has to be to try and engage difficult young people.

Where as in some cases, at the schools which get the outstanding results, you will in some cases find, fairly dull and lazy teaching, because the young people will just do whatever is asked of them.

[Guest]

I also hear that our government is saying that we will be soon teaching 5 or 6 year olds sex education? If this is true then I will NEVER let my kids go to school until they are at High School age. It makes me sick. (if it is true that is)

Taught in the right way, how can this be a problem? Many kids this age find themselves having younger brothers and sisters, and obviously ask questions. Surely it's better to tell them the facts, in the correct way, than lie to them, and have them talking in the playground and learning rumours and untruths?

When they talk about this, I don't imagine them getting the kids into groups and telling them what a blow job is, or the best way to use a condom and pleasure your partner, as that clearly would be wrong.

[Guest Bilo]

Taught in the right way, how can this be a problem? Many kids this age find themselves having younger brothers and sisters, and obviously ask questions. Surely it's better to tell them the facts, in the correct way, than lie to them, and have them talking in the playground and learning rumours and untruths?

When they talk about this, I don't imagine them getting the kids into groups and telling them what a blow job is, or the best way to use a condom and pleasure your partner, as that clearly would be wrong.

Exactly right.

It sounds as though we're moving closer towards the Dutch model of sex education, where kids are introduced to sex education at a young age so it doesn't seem like a taboo subject at a later age when the lessons become more explicit.

The result is that the idea of unprotected sex among many Dutch teenagers is almost unthinkable, and the rates of teenage pregnancy and STIs in Holland are tiny compared to ours.

So far as I'm concerned, this can only be applauded.

[Finnegan]

Holy fuck. Nibblington's back.

[BoneDog]

And what we people saying about our schools 15 years ago? About education and the development of of youth? That is was all better than it ever was?

Hardly.

The condition of education in this country can not be blamed on one factor, and making sweeping generalisations, which happens far too often is what usually results in some halfwitted scheme that actually makes things worse.

I wasn't blaming it on one factor. Just saying that I think it's gone downhill in general. Probably since the discipline disappeared and kids started to rule the yard.

[BoneDog]

Taught in the right way, how can this be a problem? Many kids this age find themselves having younger brothers and sisters, and obviously ask questions. Surely it's better to tell them the facts, in the correct way, than lie to them, and have them talking in the playground and learning rumours and untruths?

When they talk about this, I don't imagine them getting the kids into groups and telling them what a blow job is, or the best way to use a condom and pleasure your partner, as that clearly would be wrong.

Younger than 5 or 6? If they are asking those sort of questions at that age, it says alot about our society and tv, magazines, music etc. They shouldn't have a frickin clue about anything apart from being kids at that age. And if they do, then that is the fault of the parents or outside influences for bringing these subjects to their attention. It's wrong, simple as

[BoneDog]

Exactly right.

It sounds as though we're moving closer towards the Dutch model of sex education, where kids are introduced to sex education at a young age so it doesn't seem like a taboo subject at a later age when the lessons become more explicit.

The result is that the idea of unprotected sex among many Dutch teenagers is almost unthinkable, and the rates of teenage pregnancy and STIs in Holland are tiny compared to ours.

So far as I'm concerned, this can only be applauded.

There is no need for anyone to teach your kids these things. It's the job of the parents when they think the time is right.

If adults behave like adults and do the responsible job they took on when they had kids there would be no need for this.

But no, a great amount of adults nowadays seem to think that it is ok to expose young kids to all kinds of societies things that should be kept away from them til they are older. I think it's wrong

[Daggers]

Younger than 5 or 6? If they are asking those sort of questions at that age, it says alot about our society and tv, magazines, music etc. They shouldn't have a frickin clue about anything apart from being kids at that age. And if they do, then that is the fault of the parents or outside influences for bringing these subjects to their attention. It's wrong, simple as

You ought to give up drinking, get some decent sleep in and try some joined up thinking.

You plainly do not have a child - as everyone else on here with one will know that this refers to the general questions of "Mum, why is that lady's tummy fat?" and assorted questions about birth and breast-feeding.

If you seriously believe that six year olds are going to be taught about anal fist****ing then you are a complete moron.

[davieG]

You ought to give up drinking, get some decent sleep in and try some joined up thinking.

You plainly do not have a child - as everyone else on here with one will know that this refers to the general questions of "Mum, why is that lady's tummy fat?" and assorted questions about birth and breast-feeding.

If you seriously believe that six year olds are going to be taught about anal fist****ing then you are a complete moron.

These days it's just as likely to be "Mum, why is Daddies tummy fat?"