Letting our Children down!

[Corky]

That is absolutely disgusting. How can anybody be that stupid!

You'd make a great teacher

[Daggers]

Apparently it did work because it went from failing to barely adequate. If it wasn't for the Ofsted report the school would have carried on failing and telling us what a briliant job it was doing.It's not as if it's a particulary rough area, there is a good mix of income groups in the catchment area.

You were advocating the publishing of league tables based on exam grades - this is totally different to an Ofsted report.

I'll not pass comment on my opinions about dyslexia.

[Dr The Singh]

Apparently it did work because it went from failing to barely adequate. If it wasn't for the Ofsted report the school would have carried on failing and telling us what a briliant job it was doing.It's not as if it's a particulary rough area, there is a good mix of income groups in the catchment area.

Your kids are only kids for a short period of time, it's not as if you can rerun their school years until the school sorts itself out. I don't blame any parent with the money and the know how getting the best for their kids.

The rapid decline in the school's performance would suggest otherwise. As I said earlier there is now a high turnover of staff which would indicate a lack of leadership.

My 2 youngest girls have special educational needs. Since my middle child has moved up to Roundhill she gone from well below average in reading to above average.

My youngest who has severe dyslexia (it does exist believe me) was statemented. Despite the extra funding provided to the the school the headmistress didn't provide any of the extra help that the authorities demanded and refused to see us to discuss the matter. It was only after we contacted an outside agency who fought our corner that the school provided it's obligations.

If I could afford it I would believe me.

Absolutely, I know people, even I often say, that if kids want to learn they will do, but from experience the 'quality' of the school makes a difference!!

Both my son and daughter went to the school around the corner from me, according to reports, it's not a very good one, we enrolled our kids in because of convenience. Although my son enjoyed the school, for one we felt he was going backwards in his education, his behaviour became unruly, not by much but enough. We decided one day to pay a unaanounced visit, and it we were not impressed, when we spoke to the teacher, you could tell she'd given up and even told us that she was leaving and going to a 'better' school. The headmaster, admitted to us the school had problems, especially with kids from 'deprived, broken homes' from the estate, and blamed funding and the continuing loss of teaching staff.

I know it may sound horrid, we moved our kids to a more affluent area with better, my son and daughter, rapidly improved, my son went from being a grade A tw@t, to this intelligent little boy, who became interested in footy, science etc. Also, my kids clothes\lunch boxes etc were never stolen, and the racist abuse stopped!!

As a parent, you just want the best for your kids!!

[Webbo]

You were advocating the publishing of league tables based on exam grades - this is totally different to an Ofsted report.

I'll not pass comment on my opinions about dyslexia.

I wasn't advocating anything. People were advocating scrapping exams completely, I was just defending them.

As for dyslexia. I'm not 1 to make excuses, if you'd had the experiences I've had you'd believe in it too.

[Daggers]

I wasn't advocating anything. People were advocating scrapping exams completely, I was just defending them.

As for dyslexia. I'm not 1 to make excuses, if you'd had the experiences I've had you'd believe in it too.

I reckon I know one or two things about education and educational theory

[Webbo]

I reckon I know one or two things about education and educational theory

You don't believe in it, fair enough and I'm not saying it's not exagerated or used as an excuse sometimes but I've seen it with my own eyes. I know it exists.

[Daggers]

You don't believe in it, fair enough and I'm not saying it's not exagerated or used as an excuse sometimes but I've seen it with my own eyes. I know it exists.

I've met loads of people who claim to be dyslexic and amazingly they all live in affluent Western countries. Cuba? Venezuela? Odd that there's no one there suffering from this ailment, no?

Now, someone start up a thread about ADD & ADHD and I can really vent my spleen...

[Webbo]

Cuba? Venezuela? Odd that there's no one there suffering from this ailment, no?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/cuba/news/articl...jectid=10515467

'Number blindness' more common than dyslexia

More children suffer from an innate condition that renders them incapable of understanding arithmetic and numbers than those who suffer dyslexia or "word blindness", according to a study of 1,500 school pupils.

The research found that between 3 and 6 per cent of children suffer from dyscalculia - the mathematical equivalent of dyslexia - compared to between 2.5 and 4.3 per cent of children who suffer from its linguistic counterpart.

Brian Butterworth, professor of cognitive neuroscience at University College London, said the disability had nothing to do with how a child was taught, but was the result of children lacking a proper "sense of numbers", which hinders them in maths lessons.

"Increasingly, the evidence shows that dyscalculia is just as common as dyslexia and yet it is not recognised nearly as widely by teachers, parents, schools, local authorities or central government," Professor Butterworth said.

"Individuals may be unaware they have this condition. If they discover that they do, there are no dyscalculia charities to assist them as there are for dyslexia," he told the Cheltenham Science Festival.

The study was carried out in Cuba by the Cuban Ministries of Health and Education, which commissioned a national survey to assess the extent of the problem using a simple screening test developed by Professor Butterworth.

"The Cubans have recognised this as a real and serious problem for a child's future. Low numeracy affects life chances in employment and health," Professor Butterworth said.

"Schoolchildren are made very unhappy by it and teachers often feel they are failing these children because they do not know how to help them," he said.

Children who suffer from dyscalculia can excel in subjects that do not require numeracy but their chances of a university education can suffer because of the universal requirement to pass the maths GCSE.

Professor Butterworth said it was important to identify the problem early in life so children can be reassured about and given extra lessons that may help.

"Recognition of this condition in the UK is extremely patchy," he said.

"It can be extremely debilitating for people who are affected. Maths and calculations are essential in everyday life and low numeracy can be a real handicap in the workplace.

Research into dyscalculia in New Zealand is currently being carried out by Auckland University researchers Anna Wilson and Karen Waldie.

Their study includes adults aged between 18 and 35 who live in Auckland and suffer from maths and reading learning difficulties.

Dr Wilson says dyscalculia affects six per cent of the population and 50 per cent of suffers also have dyslexia

[Guest]

Apart from exams how else are parents meant to judge how well a school is doing or an employer how well an applicant would succeed in his job.

You could have teacher assessment but a teacher is not going to write in a report 'I made a crap job of teaching this pupil'. Plus an exam result is totally unbiased and not dependant on whether the pupil is liked/disliked by the teacher.

If you've actually read what I have written, I am saying that basing a school's performance on exam results is pointless as some children are good at exams whilst some are not. I hinted at the notion of the children who are good at exams going to schools with a higher than average pass rate, as the parents seem to think that it is the school who is doing the hard work, and not the child.

I shall reiterate my point of view. I think school league tables are a waste of time. How they help schools in deprived areas is beyond me. Parents who can afford to take their children elsewhere do, based on these league tables. When I say afford, it's the cost of getting the children to the better schools, not that they are paying anyone off.

This then lowers the average further, as all you are left with are the children whose parents have not achieved academic success themselves, and don't feel able to help or encourage their children, or may not be able to afford the cost.

I'm sure that I've read posts from you bemoaning the death of British manufacture etc. We managed this at a time when far fewer children passed exams. This does not mean that they have been poorly educated. Exams are a way of separating the academically gifted from the academically able, and them from the academically average etc. It is a benchmark on which to assess that particular person. However now, we can't do that, and all children have to reach this same, supposed acceptable academic minimum. How do we tell the difference? We start giving the brainy kids a made up A* grade now!!

Schools don't have to teach maths or physics to be good and bring out the best in children. Basic numeracy and literacy skills are necessary, agreed, but why can't schools teach non-academic subjects to bring the best out of a fair proportion of children?

[Daggers]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/cuba/news/articl...jectid=10515467

A one-off survey led by a man with a vested interest in proving the existence of a problem.

It obviously confirms everything you've ever thought (despite refering to a totally seperate condition) but simply leaves me with more questions than answers. Answers which I'm not going to receive here...so let's agree to disagree on this and move on.

Oh, apart from this

[stez]

Oh, apart from this

well that seems to show they have better teachers than the shite we've got to put up with over here, innit

[Webbo]

A one-off survey led by a man with a vested interest in proving the existence of a problem.

It obviously confirms everything you've ever thought (despite referring to a totally separate condition) but simply leaves me with more questions than answers. Answers which I'm not going to receive here...so let's agree to disagree on this and move on.

A related condition which my daughter also has as well as dyspraxia.This isn't my diagnosis, it's the diagnosis of the educational psychologist provided by the education dept.

You're sceptical, that's OK most people are, I have a sceptical nature myself.I'm not in the slightest offended.

[Webbo]

If you've actually read what I have written, I am saying that basing a school's performance on exam results is pointless as some children are good at exams whilst some are not. I hinted at the notion of the children who are good at exams going to schools with a higher than average pass rate, as the parents seem to think that it is the school who is doing the hard work, and not the child.

I shall reiterate my point of view. I think school league tables are a waste of time. How they help schools in deprived areas is beyond me. Parents who can afford to take their children elsewhere do, based on these league tables. When I say afford, it's the cost of getting the children to the better schools, not that they are paying anyone off.

This then lowers the average further, as all you are left with are the children whose parents have not achieved academic success themselves, and don't feel able to help or encourage their children, or may not be able to afford the cost.

I'm sure that I've read posts from you bemoaning the death of British manufacture etc. We managed this at a time when far fewer children passed exams. This does not mean that they have been poorly educated. Exams are a way of separating the academically gifted from the academically able, and them from the academically average etc. It is a benchmark on which to assess that particular person. However now, we can't do that, and all children have to reach this same, supposed acceptable academic minimum. How do we tell the difference? We start giving the brainy kids a made up A* grade now!!

Schools don't have to teach maths or physics to be good and bring out the best in children. Basic numeracy and literacy skills are necessary, agreed, but why can't schools teach non-academic subjects to bring the best out of a fair proportion of children?

I'm not really sure what your point is but you seem to be saying that parents should except a lesser education for their children to raise the average in poor schools. Good luck convincing any parent with that arguement.

[Guest]

I'm not really sure what your point is but you seem to be saying that parents should except a lesser education for their children to raise the average in poor schools. Good luck convincing any parent with that arguement.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Seeing as I am tired, jet lagged and grumpy, I will stop here, as I am in total sarcasm overload.

[The Doctor]

in all honesty the teaching standard in Leicestershire is appauling. it was summed up really when, 2 weeks before the exams started my science teacher remembered she had forgotten to teach us an entire module.

[Guest Bilo]

That is absolutely disgusting. How can anybody be that stupid!

The trouble is that stupidity is only one reason for exam failure.

There is any number of reasons why somebody might fail an exam. As has been said, some people simply cannot handle the pressure of exams. The fact that so much hinges on exams nowadays makes this worse not better.

Then you need to consider the myriad of domestic circumstances than can affect a child's exam performance. Family break-up, poverty, criminality in the family and lack of access to learning materials such as the internet are all factors. Exam failure is not necessarily indicative of stupidity, in spite of the amount of stock put in exam results by employers, and educational achievement does not begin and end in the classroom.

[davieG]

The trouble is that stupidity is only one reason for exam failure.

There is any number of reasons why somebody might fail an exam. As has been said, some people simply cannot handle the pressure of exams. The fact that so much hinges on exams nowadays makes this worse not better.

Then you need to consider the myriad of domestic circumstances than can affect a child's exam performance. Family break-up, poverty, criminality in the family and lack of access to learning materials such as the internet are all factors. Exam failure is not necessarily indicative of stupidity, in spite of the amount of stock put in exam results by employers, and educational achievement does not begin and end in the classroom.

Passing them is also not a sign of intelligence, diligence, original thought, organisational skills, interpersonal skills and any number of others that go towards making someone a good employee to invest in, unfortunately that's what organisations use.

It's got worse recently, in the interests of ensuring even handed selection processes all candidates have to be judged against the same criteria, examination results makes that task much easier.

[Father Ted]

The trouble is that stupidity is only one reason for exam failure.

There is any number of reasons why somebody might fail an exam. As has been said, some people simply cannot handle the pressure of exams. The fact that so much hinges on exams nowadays makes this worse not better.

Then you need to consider the myriad of domestic circumstances than can affect a child's exam performance. Family break-up, poverty, criminality in the family and lack of access to learning materials such as the internet are all factors. Exam failure is not necessarily indicative of stupidity, in spite of the amount of stock put in exam results by employers, and educational achievement does not begin and end in the classroom.

Yes, there are things such as pressure, family arguments, etc. but that can happen to anybody at any school. These four schools are consistently doing rubbish. Although, as you said in your last paragraph, you are correct, if you look at the areas of the schools: Beaumont Leys, Braunstone and New Parks espescially, there are high crime rates, more poverty, etc in comparison to other parts of Leicester.

[BoneDog]

in all honesty the teaching standard in Leicestershire is appauling. it was summed up really when, 2 weeks before the exams started my science teacher remembered she had forgotten to teach us an entire module.

It's appalling in 80% of the UK schools now I would say.

[Lord Nibblington]

It's appalling in 80% of the UK schools now I would say.

And what are we basing this sweeping generalisation on?

[Webbo]

It's appalling in 80% of the UK schools now I would say.

80% that's nearly half!

[Lord Nibblington]

Oh, and yes, I meant to say. This National Challenge figure of 30% A* - C including English and Maths is utterly meaningless and arbitary.

For a start, there are umpteen ways to try an artificially inflate your figures (Entire Courework based courses that count as 3 or 4 GCSEs, and allow you to pump many student hours into getting them the all important English and Maths) and the basis for the selection of that figure is shaky at best.

Yet the thing that I find ironic is it doesn't even take in account the sheer randomness of a Year group in a school. No 2 year groups are the same. Ever, there is always a variety in ability/problems/issues. I work at one of the National Challenge schools. There is a Year group there, that based on using government led predictions on them, will achieve around 40 - 45% A* - C. The Year below are predicted 20%. And these are predications based on data and information before they have ever stepped into secondary school. For the sake of arguement, both achieve these predicted levels. Does it mean one year the school is fantastic, and the next, it's bloody awful? Of course not. But if it were to happen, you can bet the school would get slammed.

But hey, what do I know, I just work here. It's obviously way easier to be sat on the outside looking in. You can fix everything that way. Don't know why I didn't think of that before!

[AoWW]

If being 'good enough' isn't good enough then you could always go private and guarantee 'outstanding'.

If I could afford it I would believe me.

Hmmm, good luck with that if you ever do have the finances to go that route.

Having worked in an independent school - that did, indeed, produce very good exam results and nice, polite children- I have to say that I was appalled by the poor levels of care and supervision of pupils. The place was, in all honestly, downright dangerous. Never in a state school have I seen - or would anticipate seeing - 80+ under 10s being left with no adult supervision at playtimes. Nor have I witnessed in the state sector teachers being expected to teach 2 classes, in separate classrooms, simultaneously. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the picture. There were many other negative elements too, not least that it was mainly populated by uninspiring teachers who were sitting there, revelling in their 'cushy' jobs (with even longer holidays) waiting to retire. Yes, kids pass their exams with good results because they are given a very thorough grounding in what's needed - but are they giving the opportunity to be creative, to develop enquiring minds, to question, to debate, to broaden their outlooks? In my experience, no, they are simply taught - parrot-fashion - to regurgitate facts, use grammar and punctuation correctly, and learn numerical formulas. The level of care, consideration for pupils and general quality of education I have seen at my current school - where the catchment area is from a notoriously 'rough' estate that finds itself in the top 3% of deprivation nationally - is far superior. But, yes, SATS results are poor. We do what we can to educate, inspire and encourage pupils who come from backgrounds where they are constantly put down, not encouraged to 'better' themselves, have extremely low levels of care, and where crime and abuse are commonplace. Compared to the 'charmed' lives of the children in the independent school, who generally had stable family backgrounds, were supported, nurtured and encouraged - as well as being given some fantastic opportunities outside of school - I would conclude that much of their 'success' was down to having more support and greater expectations within their families than the 'good teaching' of such schools.

Consider too what I think Daggers was alluding to with his 'outstanding' private schools comment. Read the reports from the Independent Schools Inspectorate and, yes, many of them are glowing. Bear in mind though that many of these inspections are carried out, at least in part, by headteachers of other independent schools. It is rife with a 'I'll scratch your back, if you scratch mine' attitude and, in my opinion, is far from 'impartial' in its assessments. Yes, I can fully understand parents wanting to provide the best education for their children and being concerned about schools that they feel 'fail' their children and hamper their progress, but do guard against the 'grass is greener' attitude - particularly when it comes to independent schools. Don't forget that such schools are highly-accomplished when it comes to 'selling' themselves to potential parents (let's not get sentimental about this, they are businesses first and foremost - they want your fees!) and they will make sure they paint a very pretty picture. Personally, I didn't like what I saw at all and wouldn't dream of working in an independent school again. Yes, my judgements are based on one school but I have no reason to believe that my experiences were anything unusual in that sector.

I would certainly urge anyone thinking of sending their child to an independent school to make a very thorough assessment of the school in advance - including a number of 'on the spot' unannounced visits at random times. At the end of the day regulations for, and inspections of, state schools are far more rigorous and, in my opinion, the 'actual' duty of care is taken far more seriously.

[Webbo]

<Very long post>

As with Lisa I'm not sure what your point is. You seem to be saying that private schools despite the better behaviour and better exam results are worse than failing state schools.

Parents want their children to succeed at school so that they can get a better job, earn a better income and have a better life than they themselves had. There seems to be anecdotal evidence that independent school children get to the better universities, get the best jobs in the media, politics and business. I really don't see what's wrong with wanting your kids to have a piece of that.

[Hullfox]

Seems to me from my experience that any school is likely to have good and bad teachers and good and bad parents.

Good Parents/Bad Teacher - Some hope

Bad Parent/Good Teacher - Very little hope

If it's not right from the home side of things, the kids are likely to become the next generation of benefit dependant non contributors to society.