Belgium Vote On Banning The Burka

[MikeyT]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1267911/Belgium-set-ban-burka-jail-women-covering-up.html

Belgium will vote today on whether to become the first European country to impose a full ban on wearing a burka.

The proposed law would mean women could be jailed for up to seven days for hiding their faces.

The legislation - which has widespread support among MPs - would means burkas, niqabs and other Islamic full face veils would be outlawed from public places.

The vote comes a day after French president Nicolas Sarkozy said France would also vote on a ban.

His spokesman Luc Chatel said MPs would debate the proposal in mid-May, and if passed the garb could be outlawed in France by June.

In Belgium, the draft law has the backing of all five parties in the nation's coalition government.

Centre-right MP Daniel Bacquelaine said: 'The notion of recognising people in the street is essential to maintain public order.

'It's also a question of human dignity. The full face veil turns a woman into a walking prison, and we have widespread cross-party support to have this item outlawed.'

Leen Dierick, of the Belgian parliament's interior affairs committee, said: 'There is all-party public support for this.

'The point is not outlawing religious freedom, but public security and the need to show one's face in public.'

Belgain daily Le Soir said under the proposed law, women would be fined £110 for the first offence of wearing a burqa.

But if they refused to pay or were caught a second time, they would be jailed for a week.

There is also widespread support for a ban on burquas and niqabs in the Netherlands.

In Switzerland, the construction of minarets was recently banned.

In France, immigration minister Eric Besson has branded the garment a 'walking coffin'.

President Sarkozy said last year described burkas as a 'sign of debasement, adding: 'They make women prisoners and deprive them of their identity.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1267911/Belgium-set-ban-burka-jail-women-covering-up.html#ixzz0lonaDi5f

[Dr The Singh]

http://www.dailymail...overing-up.html

Belgium will vote today on whether to become the first European country to impose a full ban on wearing a burka.

The proposed law would mean women could be jailed for up to seven days for hiding their faces.

The legislation - which has widespread support among MPs - would means burkas, niqabs and other Islamic full face veils would be outlawed from public places.

The vote comes a day after French president Nicolas Sarkozy said France would also vote on a ban.

His spokesman Luc Chatel said MPs would debate the proposal in mid-May, and if passed the garb could be outlawed in France by June.

In Belgium, the draft law has the backing of all five parties in the nation's coalition government.

Centre-right MP Daniel Bacquelaine said: 'The notion of recognising people in the street is essential to maintain public order.

'It's also a question of human dignity. The full face veil turns a woman into a walking prison, and we have widespread cross-party support to have this item outlawed.'

Leen Dierick, of the Belgian parliament's interior affairs committee, said: 'There is all-party public support for this.

'The point is not outlawing religious freedom, but public security and the need to show one's face in public.'

Belgain daily Le Soir said under the proposed law, women would be fined £110 for the first offence of wearing a burqa.

But if they refused to pay or were caught a second time, they would be jailed for a week.

There is also widespread support for a ban on burquas and niqabs in the Netherlands.

In Switzerland, the construction of minarets was recently banned.

In France, immigration minister Eric Besson has branded the garment a 'walking coffin'.

President Sarkozy said last year described burkas as a 'sign of debasement, adding: 'They make women prisoners and deprive them of their identity.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz0lonaDi5f

What happened to freedom of choice????

[Hugo Sanchez]

What happened to freedom of choice????

What happened to respecting somebody elses country ? Europe is not Islam and if these people are not happy on how european countries are. Then why stay ? Surely go back to a Islam country ? I'm all for freedom and all that but they have got to make a effort to fit in.

If i went to a Islam country, i would respect their rules and not name a teddybear mohamed.

[MikeyT]

I'm genuinlly torn here. I agree with both previous posts before mine to a degree. I agree with the fact that if we were to enter their countries we would be expected to follow all their laws etc and i also agree about having the freedom of choice, reall don't know which way i sway towards to be honest. It's a toughy.

[Dr The Singh]

What happened to respecting somebody elses country ? Europe is not Islam and if these people are not happy on how european countries are. Then why stay ? Surely go back to a Islam country ? I'm all for freedom and all that but they have got to make a effort to fit in.

If i went to a Islam country, i would respect their rules and not name a teddybear mohamed.

WTF,.........this has nothing to do with Islam, it's actually cultural from middle east, islam does not state that a women must be dressed like a ninja!! Mate, if a women wishes to wear a boob tube and mini is just as right as a women to wear a cock on her head. It's no difference then me wearing a wonderwomen costume to a city game.

Admittently, i'm not a fan of the burkha, and believe there are instances wear it shouldn't be worn, ie being school teachers etc, but if these women feel comfortablein isolating themselves then it's there choice, there's no danger to society.

Also, if we all should fit in and conform to a nation, then i think we should fooking close down all curry houses, pizza places, kebab houses because there foriegn!! Infact stop there music, there inventions and innovation and make the men wear bowler hats!!!!

[sw_fox]

What happened to respecting somebody elses country ? Europe is not Islam and if these people are not happy on how european countries are. Then why stay ? Surely go back to a Islam country ? I'm all for freedom and all that but they have got to make a effort to fit in.

If i went to a Islam country, i would respect their rules and not name a teddybear mohamed.

Go back to an 'Islam' country?

Are you being serious?

What about those that were born here and are British and simply want to express a religious preference?

Shall we ban Catholic priests from wearing their dog collars? After all we ARE a PROTESTANT country. If they want to wear their fooking dog collars they can fook off back to a catholic country if they don't want to conform to protestantism.

What next- ban the hoody? Ban skinny jeans? Ban Doc Martens?

[Hugo Sanchez]

WTF,.........this has nothing to do with Islam, it's actually cultural from middle east, islam does not state that a women must be dressed like a ninja!! Mate, if a women wishes to wear a boob tube and mini is just as right as a women to wear a cock on her head. It's no difference then me wearing a wonderwomen costume to a city game.

Admittently, i'm not a fan of the burkha, and believe there are instances wear it shouldn't be worn, ie being school teachers etc, but if these women feel comfortablein isolating themselves then it's there choice, there's no danger to society.

Also, if we all should fit in and conform to a nation, then i think we should fooking close down all curry houses, pizza places, kebab houses because there foriegn!! Infact stop there music, there inventions and innovation and make the men wear bowler hats!!!!

Yes but its not the same as exporting food or music is it ? I'm not saying this is England and everything has got to be made in england or everyone has even got to be born in england. My point was if we were to go to a middle eastern country we would have laws and rules we would have to respect.. I feel if your going to come to a european country that you should try your best to fit in and respect the country. I'm not saying there can't be no Muslims in england because people should be able to follow what religion they want.and pray wherever they wish too.

I wasn't having ago at you or trying to start a argument. I was just trying to point out that i could see why Belgium and other european countries have voted for this.

[Hugo Sanchez]

Go back to an 'Islam' country?

Are you being serious?

What about those that were born here and are British and simply want to express a religious preference?

Shall we ban Catholic priests from wearing their dog collars? After all we ARE a PROTESTANT country. If they want to wear their fooking dog collars they can fook off back to a catholic country if they don't want to conform to protestantism.

What next- ban the hoody? Ban skinny jeans? Ban Doc Martens?

Wearing a dog collar or a Turban isn't the same as wearing a full black veil now is it ? Like i said, i haven't got a problem with anyone or their religion.

You will find that England don't have any offical Religion btw.

[Dr The Singh]

Yes but its not the same as exporting food or music is it ? I'm not saying this is England and everything has got to be made in england or everyone has even got to be born in england. My point was if we were to go to a middle eastern country we would have laws and rules we would have to respect.. I feel if your going to come to a european country that you should try your best to fit in and respect the country. I'm not saying there can't be no Muslims in england because people should be able to follow what religion they want.and pray wherever they wish too.

I wasn't having ago at you or trying to start a argument. I was just trying to point out that i could see why Belgium and other european countries have voted for this.

You would probably find the Brits are the worsed!!! I can understand why people find such things alien, but on outright ban is uneccessary and further alienates those people who should be encouraged to give up the Burkha. A partial ban within certain sectors makes alittle more sense, as they pose a risk in schools and banks etc, even still!!

We all have a choice, nobody is forcing us to go to nations which force us to conform to there lifestyles, and just because oher nations do it, it shouldn't mean we should. We are lucky in Britain, where people are generally treated with respect no matter what there background.

Ultimately, people should have a choice to isolate themselves, whether they be goths are ninja's, or sikhs in wonderwoman costumes!!

[marbelladave]

You would probably find the Brits are the worsed!!! I can understand why people find such things alien, but on outright ban is uneccessary and further alienates those people who should be encouraged to give up the Burkha. A partial ban within certain sectors makes alittle more sense, as they pose a risk in schools and banks etc, even still!!

We all have a choice, nobody is forcing us to go to nations which force us to conform to there lifestyles, and just because oher nations do it, it shouldn't mean we should. We are lucky in Britain, where people are generally treated with respect no matter what there background.

Ultimately, people should have a choice to isolate themselves, whether they be goths are ninja's, or sikhs in wonderwoman costumes!!

One thought that has not so far surfaced in this thread is that it would appear that many women wearing the burkha are coerced into doing so.

For many the burkha remains an powerful instrument for the suppression of women. Just because such appalling behaviour is considered as 'part of the culture' should not stop us opposing it.

[Dr The Singh]

One thought that has not so far surfaced in this thread is that it would appear that many women wearing the burkha are coerced into doing so.

For many the burkha remains an powerful instrument for the suppression of women. Just because such appalling behaviour is considered as 'part of the culture' should not stop us opposing it.

There are many women that are coerced in wedlock, so maybe we should ban wedlock????

I know what your saying...unfortunately certain cultures carry baggage which is unacceptable to us, such as forced wedlock, education, and other lifestyle issues........instead of banning the burkha, which may lead to alot of women being forced to be kept indoors, without education, medical care, seperated from the outside world....we need to educate these women and give them options, and ensure that if they are being forced, there is support an protection

[Guest Bilo]

I'm genuinely torn about this one.

For me, the burka is a throwback to a misogynistic and thankfully long-dead culture that pre-dates Islam. Wearing of it is not a compulsion in Islam, the actual wording in the Koran is for women to dress modestly, which is obviously open to interpretation. The burka itself is a pre-Islamic Arab garment that found its way into Islam as a result of it being deeply embedded into Arab society. I don't believe in women being second class citizens who should be hidden away from view and I don't like the implication behind the garment regarding men either, as if we're so sexually untrustworthy we'd pounce on a woman not covering themselves from head to toe. The ideas behind it are decidedly ugly and out of step with a modern progressive society.

That said, we and the rest of Europe are free countries. There is a misconception among many that the wearing of the burka must always be forced. This is quite simply not the case. Some women may read the Koran's calling for women to be modestly dressed as the wearing of a garment that covers them completely. They should be free to make that choice, however misguided we think they may be in making that decision. I imagine those who want the burka to be banned are almost certainly the same people who are angered by firms banning crucifixes. What's the difference? There's no compulsion to wear a crucifix either. The fact is that religion is vitally important to millions of people in Europe, and why should we deny them the right to display what they perceive to be a symbol of their faith? I may be an atheist but I wouldn't want to deny others the right to perform what they see as their religious duty.

My views about this are the same as my views on freedom of speech. So long as actions don't directly negatively impact upon others, it's probably better for us to stand aside and try to combat what we see as undesirable through education.

[Fosse Boy]

I'm genuinely torn about this one.

For me, the burka is a throwback to a misogynistic and thankfully long-dead culture that pre-dates Islam. Wearing of it is not a compulsion in Islam, the actual wording in the Koran is for women to dress modestly, which is obviously open to interpretation. The burka itself is a pre-Islamic Arab garment that found its way into Islam as a result of it being deeply embedded into Arab society. I don't believe in women being second class citizens who should be hidden away from view and I don't like the implication behind the garment regarding men either, as if we're so sexually untrustworthy we'd pounce on a woman not covering themselves from head to toe. The ideas behind it are decidedly ugly and out of step with a modern progressive society.

That said, we and the rest of Europe are free countries. There is a misconception among many that the wearing of the burka must always be forced. This is quite simply not the case. Some women may read the Koran's calling for women to be modestly dressed as the wearing of a garment that covers them completely. They should be free to make that choice, however misguided we think they may be in making that decision. I imagine those who want the burka to be banned are almost certainly the same people who are angered by firms banning crucifixes. What's the difference? There's no compulsion to wear a crucifix either. The fact is that religion is vitally important to millions of people in Europe, and why should we deny them the right to display what they perceive to be a symbol of their faith? I may be an atheist but I wouldn't want to deny others the right to perform what they see as their religious duty.

My views about this are the same as my views on freedom of speech. So long as actions don't directly negatively impact upon others, it's probably better for us to stand aside and try to combat what we see as undesirable through education.

Sums it up nicely.

[breadandcheese]

Yes but its not the same as exporting food or music is it ? I'm not saying this is England and everything has got to be made in england or everyone has even got to be born in england. My point was if we were to go to a middle eastern country we would have laws and rules we would have to respect.. I feel if your going to come to a european country that you should try your best to fit in and respect the country. I'm not saying there can't be no Muslims in england because people should be able to follow what religion they want.and pray wherever they wish too.

I wasn't having ago at you or trying to start a argument. I was just trying to point out that i could see why Belgium and other european countries have voted for this.

Out of interest, would your opposition to the burka change if Middle Eastern countries changed their laws to allow freedom of expression?

[marbelladave]

There are many women that are coerced in wedlock, so maybe we should ban wedlock????

I know what your saying...unfortunately certain cultures carry baggage which is unacceptable to us, such as forced wedlock, education, and other lifestyle issues........instead of banning the burkha, which may lead to alot of women being forced to be kept indoors, without education, medical care, seperated from the outside world....we need to educate these women and give them options, and ensure that if they are being forced, there is support an protection

Forced marriages are against the law and should remain so, no argument.

Failing to protect women from one form of abuse because it might cause a different kind of abuse is seriously faulty logic. It is always difficult to see how abused women can be helped without simply 'encouraging' more abuse but at some point you have to take a position and do something or else, quite unwittingly, you become part of the problem.

For example, you can dress modestly, cover you head, avoid certain kinds of social situations in which you are uncomfortable, all without wearing a burkha, these are the kind of choices that should be encouraged. Sure it is a matter of education, and not just for the women, but until some barriers are broken down it is difficult to see how this can be done.

Whilst banning the burkha may be seen draconian, it is an important step in making the assertion, that in this country at least, all women are entitled to be seen as being (at least) equal to men and treated with respect.

[lou]

I find fat chavs dressed in hot pants and crop tops far more offensive to be honest.

Dont like the veils but putting someone in prison for wearing one is abhorrent IMO.

I know plenty of girls who choose to wear one that arent co-erced but yes some are. All been debated to death on here though to be honest.

[Hugo Sanchez]

Out of interest, would your opposition to the burka change if Middle Eastern countries changed their laws to allow freedom of expression?

I think wearing a Burka hinders Muslim women of being accepted into our society. They are humanbeings like me and you at the end of the day but i think people judge them on their style of clothing and kinda outcast them. I think if they were to dress in normal everyday clothes then alot of anti Muslim rubbish would slowly go away and people would accept them like we accept chirstians or any other religion in the U.K. No other Religion sparks such a debate here in the U.K.

To answer your question if Middle Eastern countries were to allow the freedom of expression and they carry on wearing them, then it would be up to them like people have stated but i feel its more forced upon then their choice and what with them moving to the U.K who aren't as outdated on their law should really help the Muslim women in their decisions.

[Teeno]

I personally feel that this is more of an issue about security and fairness more than anything else.

As people are aware I have strong views on the Islamic faith. However I have no problem with the burka being worn in the home, mosque etc.

The point is that I would not be able to walk down the high street and walk into a bank with a bin bag over my head.

I wouldn't be able to enter a public building wearing a balaclava or hoodie and so it should be the same with regard to the burka.

[C-man]

Not too sure what I think about this. Don't particularly like the burka but I think women should have the right to wear one if it is their choice and no-one else's.

Also a bit worried about the ban provoking more nutters like this

[Hugo Sanchez]

Not too sure what I think about this. Don't particularly like the burka but I think women should have the right to wear one if it is their choice and no-one else's.

Also a bit worried about the ban provoking more nutters like this

[FoxyPV]

One upside of the burka is that the women are no longer sexualised unlike every other woman over a certain age in western society.

[marbelladave]

I'm genuinely torn about this one.

For me, the burka is a throwback to a misogynistic and thankfully long-dead culture that pre-dates Islam. Wearing of it is not a compulsion in Islam, the actual wording in the Koran is for women to dress modestly, which is obviously open to interpretation. The burka itself is a pre-Islamic Arab garment that found its way into Islam as a result of it being deeply embedded into Arab society. I don't believe in women being second class citizens who should be hidden away from view and I don't like the implication behind the garment regarding men either, as if we're so sexually untrustworthy we'd pounce on a woman not covering themselves from head to toe. The ideas behind it are decidedly ugly and out of step with a modern progressive society.

That said, we and the rest of Europe are free countries. There is a misconception among many that the wearing of the burka must always be forced. This is quite simply not the case. Some women may read the Koran's calling for women to be modestly dressed as the wearing of a garment that covers them completely. They should be free to make that choice, however misguided we think they may be in making that decision. I imagine those who want the burka to be banned are almost certainly the same people who are angered by firms banning crucifixes. What's the difference? There's no compulsion to wear a crucifix either. The fact is that religion is vitally important to millions of people in Europe, and why should we deny them the right to display what they perceive to be a symbol of their faith? I may be an atheist but I wouldn't want to deny others the right to perform what they see as their religious duty.

My views about this are the same as my views on freedom of speech. So long as actions don't directly negatively impact upon others, it's probably better for us to stand aside and try to combat what we see as undesirable through education.

The culture that developed the burkha is far from dead and has been embraced by radical islam, it's use is growing, not falling. Whilst there are exceptions, it remains at is core an instrument of abuse and should be opposed, the fact that some women 'chose' the burkha and all that goes with it is simply an indication of just how deep and how fundamental the abuse of women is in some cultures.

This in no way can be equated with the wearing of crucifixes, that is so absurd that I can barely bring myself to comment. Suffice it to say that covering ones head or wearing a crucifix is one thing, a burkha is something else entirely.

[Dr The Singh]

Forced marriages are against the law and should remain so, no argument.

Failing to protect women from one form of abuse because it might cause a different kind of abuse is seriously faulty logic. It is always difficult to see how abused women can be helped without simply 'encouraging' more abuse but at some point you have to take a position and do something or else, quite unwittingly, you become part of the problem.

For example, you can dress modestly, cover you head, avoid certain kinds of social situations in which you are uncomfortable, all without wearing a burkha, these are the kind of choices that should be encouraged. Sure it is a matter of education, and not just for the women, but until some barriers are broken down it is difficult to see how this can be done.

Whilst banning the burkha may be seen draconian, it is an important step in making the assertion, that in this country at least, all women are entitled to be seen as being (at least) equal to men and treated with respect.

Exactly, and hence forceful wearing of the burkha should be treated the same, and that goes for other forceful behaviour!!

You talk about breaking barriers, but, how can barriers be broken when draconian treatments are used??? This would just lead to further isolation and resentment. Many cultures have understood the value and prosperity and happiness in being in the 'mainstream', and this should be encouraged, unfortunatley some cultures wish to remian in 'isolation' and live beyond the 'mainstream'....how you target this portion of society is anybodies guess, but by forceful means will only lead to kaos!!!

[lou]

One upside of the burka is that the women are no longer sexualised unlike every other woman over a certain age in western society.

Not even over a certain age anymore! Padded bikinis for 7 year olds anyone? <_<

[Alexikokopops]

One thought that has not so far surfaced in this thread is that it would appear that many women wearing the burkha are coerced into doing so.

For many the burkha remains an powerful instrument for the suppression of women. Just because such appalling behaviour is considered as 'part of the culture' should not stop us opposing it.

Would it? I was under the impression that there is nothing in the Koran saying that it is required, and that wearing a burkha/niqab etc. is through choice (at least in this country). It just seems a lot of people (and I'm not saying this is you, just to be clear ) like to imagine an oppressive Muslim man forcing his five wives to cover themselves up.

I could, of course, be completely wrong. I am only referring to the situation in this country, I have no idea about elsewhere.