Belgium Vote On Banning The Burka

[lou]

So glad Im not a Muslim woman and so have been completely free of abuse from men all my life

[Dr The Singh]

One upside of the burka is that the women are no longer sexualised unlike every other woman over a certain age in western society.

I disagree, I actually am very intrigued on how a women looks underneath her garb, infact it gets me to fantasise about how pretty she may be!!

[marbelladave]

One upside of the burka is that the women are no longer sexualised unlike every other woman over a certain age in western society.

Sexualisation of women in western society is indeed an issue, but using it to defend the use of burkas?

I assume you are not entirely serious...

[Hugo Sanchez]

So glad Im not a Muslim woman and so have been completely free of abuse from men all my life

Yes but as a man made you wear a Burka ? Have you parents forced you to wear one ? We're not saying we're all better off, we're just debating about wearing Burka. This isn't a topic on Muslim men abusing their wives is it ?

[Thracian]

There are many women that are coerced in wedlock, so maybe we should ban wedlock????

I know what your saying...unfortunately certain cultures carry baggage which is unacceptable to us, such as forced wedlock, education, and other lifestyle issues........instead of banning the burkha, which may lead to alot of women being forced to be kept indoors, without education, medical care, seperated from the outside world....we need to educate these women and give them options, and ensure that if they are being forced, there is support an protection

No we should ban coercing and see that the ban is applied.

Why the hell should our nation change to accommodate that which is unacceptable to our culture?

I know you as a good man and someone I'd think of as the best kind of friend a bloke could have but you talk of freedom of choice on the one hand then seem to accept that some are not allowed that freedom until others have been educated.

Apart from the accepted law of our land - not some shadow Sharia law - no-one should be forced to do anything against their will nor should they be brainwashed into accepting limits on their freedom.

There are several women I know - one in an influencial post - who are fighting so bravely for their freedom in different Muslim lands. These are people who don't wish to change their religion but who wish to live in peace and harmony with other nations and to have the right to live godly lives but to do so with respect for themselves as individuals and respect for their right of choice.

The least we can do in this country is to show the spunk to defend such freedom and not to see the women isolated but to isolate those misguided arseholes who arrogantly claim to represent the wishes of Allah but in fact seek only power for themselves through the preaching of hatred and by terrifying and bullying people.

[FoxyPV]

Not even over a certain age anymore! Padded bikinis for 7 year olds anyone? <_<

took that into account

So glad Im not a Muslim woman and so have been completely free of abuse from men all my life

lol

I disagree, I actually am very intrigued on how a women looks underneath her garb, infact it gets me to fantasise about how pretty she may be!!

but you'll stare at someone whose got their baps on show a lot longer

[Teeno]

I disagree, I actually am very intrigued on how a women looks underneath her garb, infact it gets me to fantasise about how pretty she may be!!

Agreed, more often than not fantasy is much better than reality

[Hugo Sanchez]

took that into account

lol

but you'll stare at someone whose got their baps on show a lot longer

I don't know why your trying to come across as some great hero. You have a picture of Joseph Stalin as your D/P. How many people did Uncle Joe kill again ?

[marbelladave]

Exactly, and hence forceful wearing of the burkha should be treated the same, and that goes for other forceful behaviour!!

You talk about breaking barriers, but, how can barriers be broken when draconian treatments are used??? This would just lead to further isolation and resentment. Many cultures have understood the value and prosperity and happiness in being in the 'mainstream', and this should be encouraged, unfortunatley some cultures wish to remian in 'isolation' and live beyond the 'mainstream'....how you target this portion of society is anybodies guess, but by forceful means will only lead to kaos!!!

No-one is suggesting that a complete ban is ideal but at some point you have to make a stand. Clearly the ban could me made part of a program of measures that seeks to educate and enlighten, again a long and difficult task but one that can only be made if some decisive action is taken.

I do not normally approve of strong, let alone draconian measures in social matters but on this occasion I can see no alternative.

[Dr The Singh]

No we should ban coercing and see that the ban is applied.

Why the hell should our nation change to accommodate that which is unacceptable to our culture?

I know you as a good man and someone I'd think of as the best kind of friend a bloke could have but you talk of freedom of choice on the one hand then seem to accept that some are not allowed that freedom until others have been educated.

Apart from the accepted law of our land - not some shadow Sharia law - no-one should be forced to do anything against their will nor should they be brainwashed into accepting limits on their freedom.

There are several women I know - one in an influencial post - who are fighting so bravely for their freedom in different Muslim lands. These are people who don't wish to change their religion but who wish to live in peace and harmony with other nations and to have the right to live godly lives but to do so with respect for themselves as individuals and respect for their right of choice.

The least we can do in this country is to show the spunk to defend such freedom and not to see the women isolated but to isolate those misguided arseholes who arrogantly claim to represent the wishes of Allah but in fact seek only power for themselves through the preaching of hatred and by terrifying and bullying people.

That's a fair point, no one should be forced to accomodate what is unacceptable, but how much of society would see the Burkha as 100% unacceptable and something it would want to outlaw 100%???? Obviously, France and Belgium do, and like. i've said, it would just lead to further isolation. I don't think it's a good solution, Britain has been nation who prides itself on accomodating many diverses walks of life and cultures, many which have added to it, if any culture is aprt of the 'mainstream' they would obviously see that the Burkha is not neccessary, that should be the aim!!.

[Koke]

No-one is suggesting that a complete ban is ideal but at some point you have to make a stand. Clearly the ban could me made part of a program of measures that seeks to educate and enlighten, again a long and difficult task but one that can only be made if some decisive action is taken.

I do not normally approve of strong, let alone draconian measures in social matters but on this occasion I can see no alternative.

If I was a woman, I would even wear the burka more often to stick two fingers up to the establishment. I hope Muslim women do it.

I refuse to be told what I can and cannot wear. And they shouldn't tolerate that either.

[Dr The Singh]

took that into account

but you'll stare at someone whose got their baps on show a lot longer

Foxy, looking at baps have a time limit on it's entertainment....but the fantasy of a curvy burka clad lady could develop for hours................................

[marbelladave]

Would it? I was under the impression that there is nothing in the Koran saying that it is required, and that wearing a burkha/niqab etc. is through choice (at least in this country). It just seems a lot of people (and I'm not saying this is you, just to be clear ) like to imagine an oppressive Muslim man forcing his five wives to cover themselves up.

I could, of course, be completely wrong. I am only referring to the situation in this country, I have no idea about elsewhere.

I feel you are missing the point, perhaps deliberately...

The coercion that is referred to is the requirement to fit in with the norms of a particular society or culture and apply as much to the man as to the woman in this particular case. The fact that the norms are so twisted is the issue that needs addressing.

To my mind the issue is simple. Treating women as inferior is wrong, whether that is through religious, social or even sexual means is not the point.

[Dr The Singh]

One upside of the burka is that the women are no longer sexualised unlike every other woman over a certain age in western society.

The funny thing about this cultural covering of women is that, it's not like women don't perve and leer over men.

Come on ladies, admit it, you all wanna piece of the Singh!!!

[marbelladave]

If I was a woman, I would even wear the burka more often to stick two fingers up to the establishment. I hope Muslim women do it.

I refuse to be told what I can and cannot wear. And they shouldn't tolerate that either.

Wearing a burkha as a form of demonstration against the establishment, what a perfectly wonderful idea!

[Guest Bilo]

The culture that developed the burkha is far from dead and has been embraced by radical islam, it's use is growing, not falling. Whilst there are exceptions, it remains at is core an instrument of abuse and should be opposed, the fact that some women 'chose' the burkha and all that goes with it is simply an indication of just how deep and how fundamental the abuse of women is in some cultures.

This in no way can be equated with the wearing of crucifixes, that is so absurd that I can barely bring myself to comment. Suffice it to say that covering ones head or wearing a crucifix is one thing, a burkha is something else entirely.

The reason why the burka has been embraced by radical Islam is because radical Islam is still stuck in a time when such oppression was common not only in Islamic nations, but around the world. Look at Christian history of misogyny around the time that an Islamic empire existed as far north as Spain. What radical Islam represents is the extreme end of Islamic society, and the likes of those groups who are actively encouraging the wearing of burkas are no more representative of ordinary Muslims than the NF and BNP are representative of ordinary white British people. It's a throwback and nothing more, that it should be opposed due to its history and usage in some Islamic communities is beyond question.

Part of the reason why Islamic women become radicalised in this country is because of what has been happening since 9/11. It's no coincidence that the wearing of burkas and Islamic dress has escalated since the War on Terror. Many Muslims feel besieged, and when a community feels it faces a crisis, certain elements of it will become radicalised. Look at support for the NF in the 1970s during recession after recession. Look at Germany embracing the Nazis in 1933. Look through recent history at any number of communities voting and empowering groups that belong in the gutter because they feel ignored.

Education is the way to combat these factors. Just as anti-racist education since the 1970s has turned the overwhelming majority of British people against racist groups, education about the true meaning of the burka and the perils of radical Islam could help tip the balance against equally odious Islamic supremacists. I don't doubt for a second that some women are forced to wear the burka, and that is abhorrent. However, forcing a woman not to wear it if she wants is equally draconian. She may not feel oppressed by it, she may see it as a symbol of her faith but there seems to have been a genuine fear of tackling such sticky issues head on in our education system. I can't imagine any free-thinking, independent woman would want to wear a burka if she knew it's true symbolism. Yet there seems to have been an odd mix of pandering to religious sensibilities in some ways and trampling over them in others. We have an education system that seems to teach only the positive aspects of Islam and other faiths, yet have political figures calling for burkas being banned in public.

Consistency is a massive problem and it's one that needs to be addressed. The last thing Britain and Europe need is for more ammunition to be given to Islamists that we are against not just their poisonous views, but against the Islamic faith as a whole. Yet there is as much of a need to tackle the threat of radical Islam as there was to tackle white racists when the NF were tearing up town centres. That's the answer, not yet another law against a community that some troublemakers are already painting as being under siege.

[Koke]

Wearing a burkha as a form of demonstration against the establishment, what a perfectly wonderful idea!

Better idea than passing laws and legislations that could jail women for wearing a piece of clothing that causes absolutely no harm to anyone. What's next, impose laws on folks like me who wear hoodies & scarves where only my nose is visible during freezing cold winter days?

The % of women who wears this is absolutely minuscule, and the fact that a law is being proposed to jail women who wear it is an act of sheer intolerance.

Topless fat Geordies at football grounds offend me much more than burka wearing Muslims.

[marbelladave]

Better idea than passing laws and legislations that could jail women for wearing a piece of clothing that causes absolutely no harm to anyone. What's next, impose laws on folks like me who wear hoodies & scarves where only my nose is visible during freezing cold winter days?

The % of women who wears this is absolutely minuscule, and the fact that a law is being proposed to jail women who wear it is an act of sheer intolerance.

Topless fat Geordies at football grounds offend me much more than burka wearing Muslims.

None of the other examples you cite are used to oppress and abuse, a trivial argument.

I absolutely do not give a shit if women choose to wear a burkha or not. It is the freedom to wear or not to wear it that is at issue. As is the freedom to go about as you please, marry who you wish and other fundamentals of the British way of life.

Imprisoning women for wearing a burkha would be perverse, there are other penalties that could be used.

[FoxyPV]

I don't know why your trying to come across as some great hero. You have a picture of Joseph Stalin as your D/P. How many people did Uncle Joe kill again ?

Foxy, looking at baps have a time limit on it's entertainment....but the fantasy of a curvy burka clad lady could develop for hours................................

Dunno about that but I'm willing to give it a try.

[purpleronnie]

I just don't understand why people care so much about it. Its their choice they're not hurting anyone leave them too it FFS!

The fact other countries (who have right wing tendencies btw) want to ban them, more fool them.

[acooling08]

Dunno about that but I'm willing to give it a try.

I agree with the criticism of having Stalin as your dp. Learning about him in A-Level History at the moment and how he murdered millions and millions in the purges. Bit stupid having the image?

[FoxyPV]

I agree with the criticism of having Stalin as your dp. Learning about him in A-Level History at the moment and how he murdered millions and millions in the purges. Bit stupid having the image?

I'm not getting into this again.

The eye rolls were for the 'hero' remark.

[Guest]

You will find that England don't have any offical Religion btw.

Er, Church of England? We aren't a secular society, yet.

One thought that has not so far surfaced in this thread is that it would appear that many women wearing the burkha are coerced into doing so.

That's just it, it's an appearance. Because it's an alien concept to westerners, it's easy to believe that women don't choose to wear the burkha, however from people I've spoken to, women are more likely to choose it for the following reason:

One upside of the burka is that the women are no longer sexualised unlike every other woman over a certain age in western society.

It is also believed that it equalises women, as although not related to sexualisation, more attractive women do get the better breaks.

As I say, it's what I've been told by muslim women who do not wear burkhas but who have friends and family choose to do so. That to me is what should be the issue, and if a woman chooses to cover herself up, then surely that's up to her? As lou said, there are plenty of westernised women who could learn a lot from that attitude!!

Why the hell should our nation change to accommodate that which is unacceptable to our culture?

A culture that once disapproved of women wearing anything higher than the ankle?

Where women had to swim in segregated pools and beaches wearing woollen swimsuits that went from the neck down to the ankle?

A culture outraged by the mini-skirt?

[lavrentis]

The burka or face covering should be banned in public places like banks etc just like Motorcycle helmets are, they are both a covering of the face regardless.

[Zingari]

I just don't understand why people care so much about it. Its their choice they're not hurting anyone leave them too it FFS!

The fact other countries (who have right wing tendencies btw) want to ban them, more fool them.

true

I'm quite sure that some women choose to wear the burka , but there are probably many , for whatever reason , and by whatever means , feel pressurised into wearing it .

So what do we do ?

Stop the all the ones from wearing them in order to allow a greater freedom of opportunity to break free for those that don't ? No, that's not right is it ?

Allow the the ones who do want to wear them continue , thereby making it harder for the ones who are coerced to break free ?. No that's not right either ,is it ?

We can't win .

So for me, it's the "path of least resistance".

The ones who want to wear them should continue, and the ones who don't will have to fight for their own "liberation" ( if that is what it is, and what they want ) .

I'm not losing sleep about a whether a few muslim women are oppressed by their religion , Because, we'll be damned if we do care, and call for a ban , and damned if we don't, and allow it to continue ,

Personally I'll conclude not to give a fook about it as it's so much easier not to care. And those muslim women that feel they have battles to fight , will have to fight for them for themselves.