Belgium Vote On Banning The Burka

[BoneDog]

I know quite a few Muslim women and the only pressure they feel about wearing the headscarf or whatever is worrying about how they get judged by strangers when they are walking down the street. None of them I know have been pressured into anything and many of them have sisters and cousins who choose not to wear the coverings.

[marbelladave]

I am astonished by the bland and complacent attitude of many of the comments in this thread.

I can only assume that the brutal exploitation of women that remains widespread across the globe does not trouble you.

[marbelladave]

I realize that my final comment last night might be somewhat unfair, (I like a good rant on occasions,) so to those of you who have genuinely thought about the issue and come to different conclusions than I have, I offer my apologies.

My arguments have pretty much run their course and I can see that they not shared by many off you so I will leave you with a simple summary of my views and then STFU.

My life experience has taught me that in most societies, and I have lived in half a dozen different countries on four or five continents, that women are still routinely abused and discriminated against. The burkha is one (of many, and not even the worse) ways that this abuse and discrimination is continued and the sooner we get rid of it from our society the better.

To somehow justify it's use by suggesting that some women 'choose' to wear it is, to my mind, the equivalent of justifying domestic violence because some women 'choose' to stay with abusive partners.

[BoneDog]

I realize that my final comment last night might be somewhat unfair, (I like a good rant on occasions,) so to those of you who have genuinely thought about the issue and come to different conclusions than I have, I offer my apologies.

My arguments have pretty much run their course and I can see that they not shared by many off you so I will leave you with a simple summary of my views and then STFU.

My life experience has taught me that in most societies, and I have lived in half a dozen different countries on four or five continents, that women are still routinely abused and discriminated against. The burkha is one (of many, and not even the worse) ways that this abuse and discrimination is continued and the sooner we get rid of it from our society the better.

To somehow justify it's use by suggesting that some women 'choose' to wear it is, to my mind, the equivalent of justifying domestic violence because some women 'choose' to stay with abusive partners.

What about a single white English Muslim lady (just an example cos I know a few) who has just become a Muslim and wants to wear a headscarf. They have no men in their life who oppress them but they want to cover their hair/neck/arms in public. Are they not to be allowed to dress modestly if they want to?

And are we going to apply the same law to Nuns etc.? Are we going to tell the Nuns that they have to start doing their hair and make-up and take off their coverings before they go outdoors? And while we're at it let's tell them to get down TopShop and buy some snazzy gear so they fit in with the majority!

[Zingari]

I realize that my final comment last night might be somewhat unfair, (I like a good rant on occasions,) so to those of you who have genuinely thought about the issue and come to different conclusions than I have, I offer my apologies.

My arguments have pretty much run their course and I can see that they not shared by many off you so I will leave you with a simple summary of my views and then STFU.

My life experience has taught me that in most societies, and I have lived in half a dozen different countries on four or five continents, that women are still routinely abused and discriminated against. The burkha is one (of many, and not even the worse) ways that this abuse and discrimination is continued and the sooner we get rid of it from our society the better.

To somehow justify it's use by suggesting that some women 'choose' to wear it is, to my mind, the equivalent of justifying domestic violence because some women 'choose' to stay with abusive partners.

Well said , ( in both posts) and for what it's worth , I totally agree with you .

The burka is an incidious form of abuse , whereby the victim becomes virtually incapable of escape due to indoctrination and social pressure .

However , what do we do ?

Any form of ban will undoubtedly infuriate not only Muslims , but worse still , the band wooly minded liberals that truly believe that their credentials of unquestioning tolerance towards eastern races and religions is some sort of absolute virtue.

Add to this what seems to be a growing number of "feminists" using the ridiculous argument that it is somehow "liberating" and making these women "less sexualised" objects, then we have a no-win situation .

My only hope , is that gradually by living in the west, enough of these women become informed enough and brave enough to stand up and shout " I'm Spartacus " so that enough others will follow suit and take heart from the bravery others and shake of these ridiculous religious shackles, and eventually join us in the 21st century.

I hope you and others can influence them to do so , personally I've given up as Any meaningful discussion about the stupidity of religious doctrines ( especially eastern based ) is like banging your head against a brick wall

[BoneDog]

Are we only talking about full Burkha's here or do people want headscarfs to be illegal aswell?

[Dr The Singh]

Are we only talking about full Burkha's here or do people want headscarfs to be illegal aswell?

All clothing....women, need to be liberated of of all clothing!!

[Zingari]

All clothing....women, need to be liberated of of all clothing!!

not all women , i can think of a few that that can remain modestly attired

[marbelladave]

What about a single white English Muslim lady (just an example cos I know a few) who has just become a Muslim and wants to wear a headscarf. They have no men in their life who oppress them but they want to cover their hair/neck/arms in public. Are they not to be allowed to dress modestly if they want to?

And are we going to apply the same law to Nuns etc.? Are we going to tell the Nuns that they have to start doing their hair and make-up and take off their coverings before they go outdoors? And while we're at it let's tell them to get down TopShop and buy some snazzy gear so they fit in with the majority!

I know I said I was going to shut up, but the above is nonsense of the highest order.

Dressing modestly and covering one's head in public is in no way comparable to wearing a burkha, if you can not see that then I despair.

Nuns routinely wear 'civilian' clothes when carrying out there work in the community and in general are able to leave their homes (convents etc) and experience life outside. Not remotely comparable!

[Sir Fynwy]

Although I live in multicultural Leicester I don't see women out in a full Burka very often, is there really a major problem with it in the UK?

[lou]

I know I said I was going to shut up, but the above is nonsense of the highest order.

Dressing modestly and covering one's head in public is in no way comparable to wearing a burkha, if you can not see that then I despair.

Nuns routinely wear 'civilian' clothes when carrying out there work in the community and in general are able to leave their homes (convents etc) and experience life outside. Not remotely comparable!

and comparing choosing to wear a veil to domestic violence is?

Oh yes I forgot none of them really choose to wear them, its all forced upon them.... my mistake

[Alexikokopops]

Although I live in multicultural Leicester I don't see women out in a full Burka very often, is there really a major problem with it in the UK?

I used to walk home along Edgware Road every day and would always see at least three women in a full burkha/niqab. Not that it's a problem, just my experience of it.

[Zingari]

Although I live in multicultural Leicester I don't see women out in a full Burka very often, is there really a major problem with it in the UK?

what number /percentage would indicate a "problem" ?

if there were hundreds /thousands , would it then become a "problem" ?

why do the numbers matter ?

would people suddenly get incandescent with rage at a certain density ?

just jokin'

[BoneDog]

I know I said I was going to shut up, but the above is nonsense of the highest order.

Dressing modestly and covering one's head in public is in no way comparable to wearing a burkha, if you can not see that then I despair.

Nuns routinely wear 'civilian' clothes when carrying out there work in the community and in general are able to leave their homes (convents etc) and experience life outside. Not remotely comparable!

That's why I asked afterwards if people only want full Burkhas banned or if they want headscarves banning too. I can understand why some people get upset about a Burkha so would probably agree that there is no need for them, but I would totally disagree with people who said all religious headwear should be banned.

I agree that the face should probably be seen in public in this day and age but I see nothing wrong with this :

Not too fond of the carpet sample versions though

[Bryn]

I think that full face covering is wrong but I think putting women in prison would be appalling. I've always said that the key issue is to make sure Muslim women know that they do not have to wear such garments in our country via widespread and visible education, with the focus being that if they report someone for coercing them into wearing anything that person will be strictly punished. The garment which covers the entire body (I forget which one is which) is disgraceful but any kind of law against it can only brew more ill-feeling.

[marbelladave]

and comparing choosing to wear a veil to domestic violence is?

Oh yes I forgot none of them really choose to wear them, its all forced upon them.... my mistake

I said,

"To somehow justify it's use by suggesting that some women 'choose' to wear it is, to my mind, the equivalent of justifying domestic violence because some women 'choose' to stay with abusive partners."

Do you not understand English? It is a simple comparison of how some women (and men too) react when they are being abused. That they 'choose' to put up with it does not justify the abuse. Is that so difficult to understand?

[Dr The Singh]

I said,

"To somehow justify it's use by suggesting that some women 'choose' to wear it is, to my mind, the equivalent of justifying domestic violence because some women 'choose' to stay with abusive partners."

Do you not understand English? It is a simple comparison of how some women (and men too) react when they are being abused. That they 'choose' to put up with it does not justify the abuse. Is that so difficult to understand?

You said you weren't gonna post on the topic anymore, your just like those political party leaders....... you don't stick to your promises!!!

[marbelladave]

You said you weren't gonna post on the topic anymore, your just like those political party leaders....... you don't stick to your promises!!!

All too true...

In a previous life I was pretty active politically so I guess that makes me a politician too...

Still, some of the posts......:dunno:

[lou]

I said,

"To somehow justify it's use by suggesting that some women 'choose' to wear it is, to my mind, the equivalent of justifying domestic violence because some women 'choose' to stay with abusive partners."

Do you not understand English? It is a simple comparison of how some women (and men too) react when they are being abused. That they 'choose' to put up with it does not justify the abuse. Is that so difficult to understand?

I understand exactly that you have a very pig ignorant and generalised view of Muslim men and women. Why did you bring abuse into a debate about veils?

Anyway you said you were going to STFU, you havent. Dont you understand your own posts?

[FoxyPV]

Don't undestand why domestic violence was brought up here

Some feminists believe that to wear a burka especially in western society is to reject the notion that all females are sexualised beings. If this done by choice then the females mentioned are using a patriarchal contstruct to actually subvert partiarchy.

I'm not saying that I agree with the notion of the burka nor what it represents(I abhor all religion) but there are positive ways of looking at this.

The pressure may be culturally located but this pressure is no more than that felt every weekend by western women to dress in what may been seen as a sexualised manner. Women's clothes are made to be sexual - look at women's suits - they are cut to hug the figure of the wearer - now this doesn't happen in men's clothing so even in the workplace women are sexualised by what they wear.

If someone wanted to opt out of this fair fooking play to them.

[Edmund]

.

[BoneDog]

I hate missing deleted posts in heated topics!

Love the sig by the way Edmund, I was a big raver back then. Great days Eddie, great days.

[Zingari]

ok , i knew it was a hopeless case ,

if there are muslim women that are oppressed by covering their sexuality , tough shit

if western women are equally oppresssed by having their sexuality on display , tough shit

they'll have to make their own decisions to either reject or embrace whatever society "dictates" to them

[Edmund]

I hate missing deleted posts in heated topics!

Haha it wasn't controversial, I was just laughing at the quite apt advert at the bottom of this page.

But it changed to an ESPN one after I submitted the post. Looks like it's back now.

Love the sig by the way Edmund, I was a big raver back then. Great days Eddie, great days.

Take a trip down memory lane most of them are on here :

http://www.raveflyers.co.uk/prices.htm

http://www.fantazia.org.uk/flyerlibrary/raveflyers.htm

[James.]

ok , i knew it was a hopeless case ,

if there are muslim women that are oppressed by covering their sexuality , tough shit

if western women are equally oppresssed by having their sexuality on display , tough shit

they'll have to make their own decisions to either reject or embrace whatever society "dictates" to them

I kind of agree. I don't think it's our place to define what's oppressive. Oppresion in our culture may be very different to other cultures.

Furthermore we don't even know whether women in burkhas actually feel oppressed. Has anyone actually asked them?

Personally I don't give a **** what people wear. It's their choice, not ours. I lived in Whitechapel and now live in Bethnal Green, there's burkhas all over the place. I remember some people ages ago remarking that they felt intimidated by them and now it seems the oppression argument might be being used to cover up this ignorance and prejudice (no pun intended).