Is Homosexuality Abnormal?

[Guest BlueBrett]

The nurture argument isn't as basic as that. If it was as simple as "brought up by gays, become gay; brought up by straights, become straight" then there wouldn't be a debate at all - the nurture theory would be fact.

If you think that having homosexual parents is going to derail some sort of biological chemistry, despite the MASSIVE external influence of a staggeringly heterosexually biased society then I'd suggest you're more than just a little bit paranoid.

I wasn't saying that it was simple. In fact my entire point was that it isn't simple. Non of us know or understand enough about it to make decisions about the lives of other people.

It is all very well for you to say gay people should have all the rights enjoyed by other people and therefore should be able to adopt but that is completely overlooking the rights of the child (much more important in my view) and they have a right to a normal upbringing.

You are trying to be so unbelieveably PC but in doing so you are prioritising the rights of one group (who incidently have made a specific lifestyle choice) over those of another who are yet to make any decisions about how to live or form any opinions about issues like this.

[Finnegan]

Yes you are right it is 2010 and there is a distinct lack of morals in Britain. So many things have been normalised due political correct numptys like yourself and this is just another thing that is on that list.

Firstly, I would not describe myself as intentionally PC. If I think persons of all races, beliefs, sexualities, disabilities and heaven knows what other distinctions have the right to be judged on their individual merits and not their basic make-up then I do so because I believe we are all just, essentially, flesh and blood and not because I feel I have some duty to not offend. If I was overly concerned about who I upset, which is ultimately the core of modern political correctness, then I dare say my posting habits (and accompanying reputation) on Foxes Talk would be considerably different.

Now I've gotten that off my chest, could you kindly explain to me how a homosexual couple have less ability to educate their child in correct and decent human morality than a heterosexual one?

If you do not see the difference I can guarantee you that either you have done some kind of sociology or psychology degree.

So... if I'm ignorant.. it's because I'm educated?

(I studied neither subject at university level. I studded communication at A-Level which is sort of an amalgamation of both but that's about it.)

How do 2 gay men explain periods, how a girl feels when they start the transition into womanhood if they have not experienced it themselves? The same can be said about 2 lesbians and a boy. Now I am sure you will come back with an answer like they could get friends to do it etc. but then that is not parenting is it. It is just passing the buck. If 2 heterosexual parents did that would you consider that to be normal?

Do you really think the most important aspect of parenthood is sex education? Is that all that's relevant? I have to say, I consider my parents to have raised me fairly well but I never got any cliché "Talk" about puberty or "changes to my body" from my old man. I'd have probably been weirded out and told him to sod off even if he'd tried. Plenty of modern couples "pass the buck" now anyway, it's why "Preparation For Adult Life" and other such stupid, patronizing subjects make their way onto the national curriculum.

What percentage of an average mother's interaction with her daughter do you actually think is talking about periods? Really?

[Finnegan]

I wasn't saying that it was simple. In fact my entire point was that it isn't simple. Non of us know or understand enough about it to make decisions about the lives of other people.

Yet you're making the decision that homosexual "parents" are inappropriate parents?

It is all very well for you to say gay people should have all the rights enjoyed by other people and therefore should be able to adopt but that is completely overlooking the rights of the child (much more important in my view) and they have a right to a normal upbringing.

Again, define a "normal" twenty-first century upbringing.

You are trying to be so unbelieveably PC

Refer to the above post.

(who incidently have made a specific lifestyle choice)

So it's now neither nature, nor nurture, but a conscious decision to be a homosexual? I'm not (entirely) trying to mock you, here, I just don't completely understand what it is, exactly, you think you believe?

but in doing so you are prioritising the rights of one group over those of another who are yet to make any decisions about how to live or form any opinions about issues like this.

And right about here we're dragged back to my recurring point. What exactly about a homosexual couple makes them ill-equipped to actually raise a child? So far the only actual replies I've had is that an all-male couple can't tell a girl about periods (and visa versa) and that there's a somewhat increased chance the kid might be bullied.

Seriously. Stop trying to curry favour with Foxes Talk's right-wing chorus by attempting to brand me some sort of beacon of silly, Guardian-reading, leftist, PC, everything-that's-wrong-with-Britain rhetoric and actually tell me what you think. What is so damaging about the prospect of homosexual parents?

[Daggers]

Brilliant resurgence, a thread back from the dead.

From henceforth known as the thread which bought you by such paraphrased gems as "I know loads of gay people and he said he didn't want kids" and "being gay is a lifestyle choice".

Simply brilliant.

[Guest BlueBrett]

Seriously. Stop trying to curry favour with Foxes Talk's right-wing chorus by attempting to brand me some sort of beacon of silly, Guardian-reading, leftist, PC, everything-that's-wrong-with-Britain rhetoric and actually tell me what you think. What is so damaging about the prospect of homosexual parents?

There isn't really much point because you are so seduced by what you see as the idealism of your own 'principles' that you will point black refuse to entertain the notion that your logic could be in any way inferior to those who come down on the other side of the issue. Put simply though, I think that same sex adoption is potentially damaging to the psychological well being of the child concerned for all manner of reasons ranging from stigmatism to identity issues and the very fact that there is the potential for such damage to occur is reason enough to discourage it. Ultimately you can't know how it will affect any given child until they have lived it and im afraid I just don't think it is a justifiable experiment just because a few gays think they quite fancy having a kid.

If you can't understand that maybe you should just think about it like this - How many people do you know who would like to have two dads rather than a mother and a father? and if you are thinking about responding to that with your old 'nobody chooses their parents' line then consider this - what gives anyone the right to make the decision on behalf of a given child that they should grow up with two dads rather than a mother and father? bear in mind your honest answer to the first question when answering the second.

[Salieri]

How do 2 gay men explain periods, how a girl feels when they start the transition into womanhood if they have not experienced it themselves? The same can be said about 2 lesbians and a boy.

Surely a single dad/mum finds him/herself in the same boat?

[Daggers]

There isn't really much point because you are so seduced by what you see as the idealism of your own 'principles' that...

And you seem so locked into your state of bigotry that you can not see the benefits because of your coprophobia.

I have come into contact with hundreds of really, really shit heterosexual parents - and include mine in that while I was growing up. One friend used to get beaten with a metal rod by her hetero Dad while another was repeatedly raped between the ages of 4-13. On pretty much a daily basis I have to deal with the fall-out of a hetero parent's dink/drug/violence/abuse/neglect on their kid. You think no one else in the class notices this? Do you seriously believe that these hetero Mums and Dads are standard bearers of "the correct" way to raise a child?

And I've dealt with many gay parents too but you won't want to hear about that. You won't want to listen to the fact that every child I've taught who lives with gay parents or a single gay parent is well-adjusted, loved and cared for deeply. Because you are scared of them you refuse to accept that their differences could actually make them better parents than you. I have a theory that this is down to the fact that most children are not planned for, they are surprises that then need to be handled by ill-prepared parents. This isn't the case for gay couples - they have to undertake extensive research and preparation, they have to be fully committed in order to pass the vetting.

So some ignorant little shit may take the piss? So the fvck what! Anyone who is in the least bit different knows what this feels like and learns coping strategies to overcome the ignorance being worn like a badge of pride.

Do you appreciate that children in care want nothing more than a 'family', nuclear or otherwise. So many of them remain in care because there aren't enough hetero parents willing or able to adopt. If you're going to stand in the way of gays adopting because you fear for the children suffering through the prejudices of others then why not go the whole hog? Why not ban all ethnic groups from adopting too - after all, the EDL may come leafleting down their street.

[Guest BlueBrett]

And you seem so locked into your state of bigotry that you can not see the benefits because of your coprophobia

You see this is the problem with debates like this. They rarely get off the ground because people like you and Finnegan are convinced that everybody who doesn't agree with you is a Nazi.

I feel like I've wasted enough time now and if you are going to resort to insults and dragging up irrelevant examples of bad heterosexual parents then I've said all I have to say.

[AoWW]

You see this is the problem with debates like this. They rarely get off the ground because people like you and Finnegan are convinced that everybody who doesn't agree with you is a Nazi.

I feel like I've wasted enough time now and if you are going to resort to insults and dragging up irrelevant examples of bad heterosexual parents then I've said all I have to say.

How are they irrelevant? Surely presenting facts relating to the 'alternative scenario' is entirely relevant?

[Guest BlueBrett]

How are they irrelevant? Surely presenting facts relating to the 'alternative scenario' is entirely relevant?

Well no not really. I'm sure you have heard the expression two wrongs dont make a right.

How does the fact that some individuals are twats have any bearing on whether or not another group of individuals should be able to do something? as far as i can see the two are totally unrelated.

[AoWW]

Well no not really. I'm sure you have heard the expression two wrongs dont make a right.

How does the fact that some individuals are twats have any bearing on whether or not another group of individuals should be able to do something? as far as i can see the two are totally unrelated.

But nobody has said that they do.

[Zingari]

romulus and remus were brought up by wolves ,

tarzan by apes ,

surely gays ain't no worse

stop worrying about who brings kids up , they're all fookin uncontrollable hooligans by the time they're 14 anyway.

and they always become respectactable citizens at 41

it's just natural law

[Finnegan]

You see this is the problem with debates like this. They rarely get off the ground because people like you and Finnegan are convinced that everybody who doesn't agree with you is a Nazi.

I feel like I've wasted enough time now and if you are going to resort to insults and dragging up irrelevant examples of bad heterosexual parents then I've said all I have to say.

Yourself and Zaphod have made the last few pages far more personal and / or aggressive than either Daggers or I and even then I don't think there's been anything that zealous going on here. I think we're having a vaguely reasonable debate by internet standards. If you're bored of the discussion then stop participating, nobody's going to force you. But don't try and bow out on some high horse by claiming personal attacks have been made that barely have.

It would also do you well to not completely overlook the vast majority of Daggers' post which was, in all fairness, well constructed and well thought out. The point about a homosexual couple's credibility to adopt being heavily vetted prior to a successful application is a very good and very relevant one indeed and not to be dismissed.

The very crux of your argument is the belief that being raised by a homosexual couple will be psychologically damaging to a child but the best you can come up with is that they might be bullied. That this might impact heavily on their mental health? You make out that this would be some freakish experiment. You are aware that millions of children around the world are currently (and have been for decades) raised by homosexual parents? Something that's been studied extensively:

"A number of professional medical organizations -- including the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychiatric Association -- have issued statements claiming that a parent's sexual orientation is irrelevant to his or her ability to raise a child.

For the most part, the organizations are relying on a relatively small but conclusive body of research -- approximately 67 studies -- looking at children of gay parents and compiled by the American Psychological Association. In study after study, children in same-sex parent families turned out the same, for better or for worse, as children in heterosexual families.

Moreover, a 2001 meta-analysis of those studies found that the sexual orientation of a parent is irrelevant to the development of a child's mental health and social development and to the quality of a parent-child relationship."

(I found the most impartial article I could find, you have to appreciate that given most literature on the subject is American - where the issue is massively more religiously focussed it's somewhat difficult to find 'neutral' figures.)

Then there's your emphasis on choice - and rights. I'm afraid that's just one of the many troubles facing any adopted child. What right has the adoption system to put a child with a devoutly religious (or militantly atheist) family? Something with arguably a far bigger impact on somebody's up-bringing and future outlook but never even considered.

At the end of the day, state care is a terrible place to be. Would I pick homosexual parents over their heterosexual equivalent, assuming no other difference? Possibly not. But should the question not be would I rather be raised by a homosexual couple than spend my childhood and adolescence in care? Because I really don't see that that's much of a decision. I'd take the loving family any day, regardless of their gender make-up.

[Daggers]

You see this is the problem with debates like this. They rarely get off the ground because people like you and Finnegan are convinced that everybody who doesn't agree with you is a Nazi.

I feel like I've wasted enough time now and if you are going to resort to insults and dragging up irrelevant examples of bad heterosexual parents then I've said all I have to say.

Feeble.

You mentioned Nazi, no one else. Insults? Sweetcheeks, you must be fragile if you think that's happened.

All you've done is run off rather than address a single point and, in doing so, simply reinforce my belief that you are simply homophobic and throwing up objections based on immature feelings rather than experience and knowledge gained through research. But if that signals your capitulation then I'm not going to complain.

[BoneDog]

I wouldn't like these guys to be my Mum and Dad.

[Daggers]

<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/e6bpeb.jpg" />

Surely that isn't Kokopops and Thracian? It sure looks like 'Our Tone'.

[Zingari]

is homosexuality abnormal ?

OOOOHH YES IT IS !!!!

[Guest Basildon Fox]

Surely a single dad/mum finds him/herself in the same boat?

And would you adopt children to a single parent? I know I wouldn't.

[Nick]

There are different types of cereal other than cornflakes.

My Grandparents didn't know this.

They were lovely people.

But deeply ignorant.

[RedHux]

Any half-witted hetero dingbat can have a child.

The gays have to jump through all sorts of hoops before they can head down the road to parenthood. I'm lead to believe for example, that the adoption process is an arduous one with lots of checks and balances in place. Surely this alone means a greater proportion of the gays who want children will be in a better position to provide a stable and safe environment for a child then a pair of slack jawed kids who did the nasty whilst under the influence of cheap cider.

Also, if there were more gay parents there would be less children walking around in those frankly hideous baggy grey jogging bottoms.

[Finnegan]

Also, if there were more gay parents there would be less children walking around in those frankly hideous baggy grey jogging bottoms.

[broughtonblue]

I'm not an expert on adoption or similar. The kid these two had was 'surrogate' by an American woman, are there still all the checks in place or can anyone with a few million go for it?

As this debate rages on 'is homosexualty abnormal' surely a 'poll' would give a better reflection of feelings?

[Guest Basildon Fox]

I'm not an expert on adoption or similar. The kid these two had was 'surrogate' by an American woman, are there still all the checks in place or can anyone with a few million go for it?

As this debate rages on 'is homosexualty abnormal' surely a 'pole' would give a better reflection of feelings?

This is their feelings on it.

They dont want them talked about in schools

[broughtonblue]

This is their feelings on it.

They dont want them talked about in schools

Makes interesting reading, will surely raise a few more points to debate!

[Guest Bilo]

That's my contribution.