Rangers/celtic

[I am Rod Hull]

Rangers and Celtic would both struggle in the Championship...

[Heart-Shaped Fox]

Rangers and Celtic would both struggle in the Championship...

I dont think they would struggle. I dont think they are any better than a lot of Championship teams, but with their masss support and the longer they played in England the more money they'd get eventually getting bigger and better.

If they were in the Champinship today they would be at least mid table, they are much better than S****horpe, Preston, Palace, Cov, Derby.

[Guest Bilo]

Sorry to be pedantic but I'm not sure why you've both stated Feyenoord. PSV are the second biggest team in terms of success just behind Ajax in title wins.

Secondly, lucrative or not there would be riots in The Netherlands if the subject of moving these clubs to the Bundesliga or any other league ever came up. The Dutch are quite content with their league and most clubs are well supported. The Eredivise has opened up in the past decade with teams such as FC Twente and AZ adding their name to the honours list.

In all fainess, Feyenoord weren't the best pick but the point still stands.

The thing is that if Rangers and Celtic were allowed to move to England, essentially killing the SPL in money terms, that big fishes in comparatively small ponds would fancy moving to leagues where the TV money, exposure and attendances would increase with little to stop them thanks to a precedent being set. The Eredivisie may be more open than it has been in years but an enriched Ajax with their global fame and large fanbase may well fancy their chances in the Bundesliga, whether it'd cause riots in Holland or not their bank managers would fancy it big time.

[Finnegan]

I'm probably starting to sound like a stuck record whenever this issue comes up but anyone who thinks that Celtic wouldn't be a massive force in the Premiership is the most short-sighted, narrow-minded moron going. Look beyond Samaras, Boruc and Maloney a second. Who gives a fuck what players they have there now? It's completely irrelevant. Where were Man City five years ago?

Celtic are quite possibly one of the single most marketable clubs on the entire planet, as gimmicks go there aren't many more potent than the world's obsession with the Oirish. Hell, if any single club could cause a boom in American support for 'soccer' it'd be the Bhoys.

Add to that the fact that they already have a phenomenal existing fan base, a brilliant stadium, a glorious history and a club culture of winning? They're an oligarch's wet dream. Of course their current crop of players are shit but that's not even relevant, that could all change in the blink of a transfer window.

[BlueSi13]

I'm probably starting to sound like a stuck record whenever this issue comes up but anyone who thinks that Celtic wouldn't be a massive force in the Premiership is the most short-sighted, narrow-minded moron going. Look beyond Samaras, Boruc and Maloney a second. Who gives a fuck what players they have there now? It's completely irrelevant. Where were Man City five years ago?

Celtic are quite possibly one of the single most marketable clubs on the entire planet, as gimmicks go there aren't many more potent than the world's obsession with the Oirish. Hell, if any single club could cause a boom in American support for 'soccer' it'd be the Bhoys.

Add to that the fact that they already have a phenomenal existing fan base, a brilliant stadium, a glorious history and a club culture of winning? They're an oligarch's wet dream. Of course their current crop of players are shit but that's not even relevant, that could all change in the blink of a transfer window.

Leeds United come from a massive city, massive fanbase, big stadium and an impressive history...yet they are below Wigan Athletic in the football pyramid...

The earlier point stands...can you give me a reason why we would invite Celtic and not say Paris Saint Germain? Both scenarios are equally as far fetched no? I for one would much prefer some continental action rather then the medieval slime from north of the border if i had to choose.

Celtic and Rangers are giants and legends in their own eyes, to the rest of us they are no bigger and no better supported than the Greek and Turkish giants....yet in fairness i never hear those clubs coming out with the "we are the biggest club in the world" bollocks!!

[Guest Bilo]

I'm probably starting to sound like a stuck record whenever this issue comes up but anyone who thinks that Celtic wouldn't be a massive force in the Premiership is the most short-sighted, narrow-minded moron going. Look beyond Samaras, Boruc and Maloney a second. Who gives a fuck what players they have there now? It's completely irrelevant. Where were Man City five years ago?

Celtic are quite possibly one of the single most marketable clubs on the entire planet, as gimmicks go there aren't many more potent than the world's obsession with the Oirish. Hell, if any single club could cause a boom in American support for 'soccer' it'd be the Bhoys.

Add to that the fact that they already have a phenomenal existing fan base, a brilliant stadium, a glorious history and a club culture of winning? They're an oligarch's wet dream. Of course their current crop of players are shit but that's not even relevant, that could all change in the blink of a transfer window.

No doubting that Sosban, I actually think that if they were to come to the EPL they'd take a few years to acclimatise then some billionaire would eventually come in and they'd be up there with the CL spots. They'd almost certainly do better than Rangers who are presently poorly off by comparison and much less marketable for a number of reasons.

It's the principle of their joining the EPL that I'd have a problem with, partly because it'd create two less places in the Premiership for those who have been a part of the English league for much longer than they have, the fact it'd destroy Scottish domestic football and the fact that it would pave the way for the greedy twats at UEFA and FIFA to create the European Super League that they so desperately want and have done for years.

[lcfc"weasel"]

Exactly, why should it be restricted to only Celtic and Rangers? Hearts are doing well this season and could finish in the top two.

They have their own league to play in and it's not our problem if they are too big or good for it.

Both Glasgow teams are a cut above Hearts and it's extremely unlikely that any of the other teams will break into the top two spots in the SPL. As is happening down here with the difference of class between the Championship and the Premiership increasing the same is happening North of the border where the gap between the Old Firm teams and the rest is increasing all the time.

[Edmund]

In all fainess, Feyenoord weren't the best pick but the point still stands.

The thing is that if Rangers and Celtic were allowed to move to England, essentially killing the SPL in money terms, that big fishes in comparatively small ponds would fancy moving to leagues where the TV money, exposure and attendances would increase with little to stop them thanks to a precedent being set. The Eredivisie may be more open than it has been in years but an enriched Ajax with their global fame and large fanbase may well fancy their chances in the Bundesliga, whether it'd cause riots in Holland or not their bank managers would fancy it big time.

I see the point your making and you're probably right.

As for Ajax I think their usually pretty financially sound. They have a habit of churning out youth players who sell on for millions or bring in players from overseas who also get sold on at 20 times the amount they bought them for.

When I was last in Holland there was a good few years wait just to get a season ticket. I'm sure it was a good ten years or so but don't quote me on that. Ajax as a brand in Holland is huge. Their definitely not short of a few bob.

[Finnegan]

Leeds United come from a massive city, massive fanbase, big stadium and an impressive history...

Leeds ground holds about twenty thousand less, their fans are terrible at home, their support is largely limited to their region and, uh, they're not Irish?

You might want to try again without completely missing the point.

can you give me a reason why we would invite Celtic and not say Paris Saint Germain?

Because PSG aren't fucking British? Christ sakes.

Look, I'm not actually FOR this happening, I'm just saying that all the rubbish about how Celtic and Rangers would be struggling Championship sides is a load of pap. And what the fuck have Paris Saint Germain got to do with anything? Stop being deliberately obtuse.

[lcfc_jme]

Not that it's going to happen anyway, but if it did, they should both be made to start at non-league level and work their way up. Nobody has a divine right to anything and if they wanted to play in the PL they'd have to fvcking earn it in my book.

[Sparky]

Not a fan of the idea, as others say its the precedence it sets that worries me.

[BlueSi13]

Leeds ground holds about twenty thousand less, their fans are terrible at home, their support is largely limited to their region and, uh, they're not Irish?

You might want to try again without completely missing the point.

Because PSG aren't fucking British? Christ sakes.

Look, I'm not actually FOR this happening, I'm just saying that all the rubbish about how Celtic and Rangers would be struggling Championship sides is a load of pap. And what the fuck have Paris Saint Germain got to do with anything? Stop being deliberately obtuse.

No need to get upset mate, its only an opinion

But as to your points, since when were Celtic "Irish"?? They play in Glashow don't they? Living all over Europe the past few years, i can't honestly say ive noticed any Celtic fans at all around either....whereas Manchester United, Barcelona...you get my drift...

Since when does the fact the stadium holds 20,000 more mean anything?

Since when did being British mean anything when it comes to league football? (contradicted yourself there, Irish, British, what is it?) Point me to the headquarters of the British national team or FA and then you might have a point. I could say the same about PSG being allowed in as we are all "European" eh?

Im sure MANY teams would grow incredibly with the Premier Leagues money, competition and exposure but Celtic and Rangers have zero claim to a place, just as teams from France or anywhere have zero claim also...that was what i was getting at.

There is no reason why Scotland can't have a league similar to that of Holland and Belgium...jumping ship won't help the situation at all. The only ones that would benefit from this would be Celtic and Rangers.

[The Doctor]

No need to get upset mate, its only an opinion

But as to your points, since when were Celtic "Irish"?? They play in Glashow don't they? Living all over Europe the past few years, i can't honestly say ive noticed any Celtic fans at all around either....whereas Manchester United, Barcelona...you get my drift...

Since when does the fact the stadium holds 20,000 more mean anything?

Since when did being British mean anything when it comes to league football? (contradicted yourself there, Irish, British, what is it?) Point me to the headquarters of the British national team or FA and then you might have a point. I could say the same about PSG being allowed in as we are all "European" eh?

Im sure MANY teams would grow incredibly with the Premier Leagues money, competition and exposure but Celtic and Rangers have zero claim to a place, just as teams from France or anywhere have zero claim also...that was what i was getting at.

There is no reason why Scotland can't have a league similar to that of Holland and Belgium...jumping ship won't help the situation at all. The only ones that would benefit from this would be Celtic and Rangers.

celtic are the team for immigrant irish catholics, rangers for fearful scottish protestants.

[Finnegan]

No need to get upset mate, its only an opinion

I'm not upset, I'm just bemused. I rarely agree with you but I've never thought you were actually thick. Now I can't work out whether you're WUMing or just being genuinely dense.

I mean, this for example:

since when were Celtic "Irish"??

Are you actually taking the piss? In the context of marketing and a sense of identity you don't have to be from Ireland to be Irish. Celtic are the Irish club - fawned over by Irish and Plastic Paddies alike the world over and with membership to the most widely broadcasted league in the world they'd become a merchandising wet dream.

Since when does the fact the stadium holds 20,000 more mean anything?

Err. You're aware that tickets equals revenue, right?

Since when did being British mean anything when it comes to league football?

Berwick, Gretna, TNS, Cardiff, Wrexham, Newport, Swansea. You think Celtic and Rangers would be the first British teams to play in a neighbouring league? Stop being a berk.

(contradicted yourself there, Irish, British, what is it?)

You are aware that a fair proportion of Ireland is British territory, yes? It's called Northern Ireland, home to many Celtic fans? And I assume you're also well aware that vast amounts of Scottish and English residents with British passports self-identify as Irish?

Again, I feel the need to iterate I don't actually support the idea. I just take exception to the fact you seem to be being deliberately thick to try and make a very, very weak point.

[BlueSi13]

I'm not upset, I'm just bemused. I rarely agree with you but I've never thought you were actually thick. Now I can't work out whether you're WUMing or just being genuinely dense.

I mean, this for example:

Are you actually taking the piss? In the context of marketing and a sense of identity you don't have to be from Ireland to be Irish. Celtic are the Irish club - fawned over by Irish and Plastic Paddies alike the world over and with membership to the most widely broadcasted league in the world they'd become a merchandising wet dream.

Err. You're aware that tickets equals revenue, right?

Berwick, Gretna, TNS, Cardiff, Wrexham, Newport, Swansea. You think Celtic and Rangers would be the first British teams to play in a neighbouring league? Stop being a berk.

You are aware that a fair proportion of Ireland is British territory, yes? It's called Northern Ireland, home to many Celtic fans? And I assume you're also well aware that vast amounts of Scottish and English residents with British passports self-identify as Irish?

Again, I feel the need to iterate I don't actually support the idea. I just take exception to the fact you seem to be being deliberately thick to try and make a very, very weak point.

Ok mate, first off the personal insults make you look rather sad and pathetic, do you talk to a person that disagrees with your shit like that if you met in public? Guessed not, your keyboard warrior act shows you for what you are. I've got nothing but love for you man, whoever you are in reality, and i respect all opinions, but i think you need to calm down and consider whether attempting to insult a faceless person on the internet and trying to gain some sort of cyber high ground is really how you should be spending your time

I understand you arguments completely, relatively straightforward, and its clear you like Celtic, sadly you have missed mine altogether but i will comment on a couple of your statements.

Celtic fawned over by the Irish the world over?...should probably point out this moment my family is southern Irish (and i am well aware of Glasgow Celtics history)..does anybody support Celtic...nope. I am sure plenty in the states and Australia might jump on the bandwagon because of this link but as we know neither of those are exactly footballing hotbeds....they wouldn't be a patch on Benfica's support in South America for example....but hey i do agree that any club in the Premier League would gather plenty of new fans...Celtic more than most granted as they do have a selling point if the marketing men can avoid the I.R.A sympathies, and heck hopefully even City might find some in Thailand! You never know!

All of the clubs you mentioned have been in their respective leagues a LONG time, when they were practically homeless and without a league of their own....Celtic and Rangers have their own respectable and historical set up, not long ago both clubs were making European Cup finals, Celtic even becoming the first British club to win the competition as im sure most are well aware. Whats to stop the SPL becoming at least on par with some of its European neighbours? How would defecting down south help professional football up north?

Ticket revenues? Yes because naturally Wigan Athletics (as an example) higher ticket revenues in comparison with Leeds United or even ours is the biggest reason why they are above us...whoa wait a minute...

Your final comment as to a lot of people in the UK identyfing as Irish, as ive mentioned, that i am more than aware off...doesn't stop most of them supporting Manchester United or Liverpool though

The point i was making was that the idea that ANY team coming from outside the established set up and leapfrogging god knows how many clubs who have been in the footballing pyramid for all of their history is totally unacceptable, no matter how big or small they are. Besides if the old firm were truly serious about this and its not simply about the money...why don't they apply to enter at Conference level...Id be very surprised if their applications were rejected what with the extra revenue and exposure that level would get with their inclusion.

[broughtonblue]

I think the main problem in the whole arguement is that fact we have a few Welsh teams in our league. Although I dont agree with them being in our league, why is it fair we can have some Welsh temas but not Scottish?

There are pros and cons about the Old Firm coiming down here. But I think if they wanted to come they would have to start at the bottom, in League 2. You cant just throw them in at the top i.e the Premier League.

I dont think I really want them in our league though there would be good points coming from it, like bigger crowdsa, etc.

This. Exactly the points i was making when I started this topic. After reading all the threads in this posts I still think it would be great to have a couple of weekends in jockland (if the mrs would let me go!) slightly off topic, but mrs Broughtonblue hasn't got a clue what the offside law is!

[Finnegan]

Not responding to all of that on my phone, takes all day to write anything. But in regards my being a keyboard warrior, yes I do talk to most of the people I know 'in real life' much the same and yes I do have plenty of friends, they just aren't easily offended.

Will respond to your latest round of empty rhetoric when I get home from work.

[davieG]

This. Exactly the points i was making when I started this topic. After reading all the threads in this posts I still think it would be great to have a couple of weekends in jockland (if the mrs would let me go!) slightly off topic, but mrs Broughtonblue hasn't got a clue what the offside law is!

What's stopping you then? There games up there every weekend during the football season, I'm sure they'd welcome your admission fee.

[Finnegan]

I understand you arguments completely, relatively straightforward, and its clear you like Celtic

Er, if you think that's the case then you probably aren't really understanding me.

Celtic fawned over by the Irish the world over?...should probably point out this moment my family is southern Irish (and i am well aware of Glasgow Celtics history)..does anybody support Celtic...nope.

Are you really stooping to that level of pedantry? I'm sure there are plenty of Irish people who don't support Celtic just as there are plenty of Welsh people that don't like rugby, Germans that don't like sausage, Swedes that don't build flatpack furniture and Americans that like ethnic minorities. But Celtic are clearly a club that identifies strongly as Irish and a club that draws much Irish and Irish-descendant support. I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but stop being intentionally obtuse - you're well aware that this is true.

I am sure plenty in the states and Australia might jump on the bandwagon because of this link

Yes. That's exactly what we're talking about. That's the whole freaking point, congratulations, you've caught up. But not just in Australia and the States but here in the UK and everywhere else the Irish have travelled en masse and spread their culture and bloodlines.

they wouldn't be a patch on Benfica's support in South America for example....

So what? They wouldn't have to be. My initial point was purely that Celtic would be an immensely marketable club and a very, very "big" club with immense prospects should they be competing in the so-called best league in the world and just because they have shit players now it doesn't mean they'd have shit players should it happen.

but hey i do agree that any club in the Premier League would gather plenty of new fans...Celtic more than most granted as they do have a selling point

So you agree. So then why the fuck are you arguing, unless you're blatantly on the wind up?

All of the clubs you mentioned have been in their respective leagues a LONG time, when they were practically homeless and without a league of their own....Celtic and Rangers have their own respectable and historical set up, not long ago both clubs were making European Cup finals, Celtic even becoming the first British club to win the competition as im sure most are well aware. Whats to stop the SPL becoming at least on par with some of its European neighbours? How would defecting down south help professional football up north?

I don't disagree with any of that. I'm just saying that the PSG argument was a stupid one. For the hundredth time, I don't think the Old Firm should come and join the English league system. My beef (as you'll see if you go back and read my first post in the thread) was purely with people who say stupid things like "Celtic would be a mid-table Championship club at best" just because they're judging them on the best players they could attract to the SPL.

Ticket revenues? Yes because naturally Wigan Athletics (as an example) higher ticket revenues in comparison with Leeds United or even ours is the biggest reason why they are above us...whoa wait a minute...

What have Wigan got to do with anything? We were discussing why Celtic would be an attractive prospect to wealthy investors.

The point i was making was that the idea that ANY team coming from outside the established set up and leapfrogging god knows how many clubs who have been in the footballing pyramid for all of their history is totally unacceptable, no matter how big or small they are. Besides if the old firm were truly serious about this and its not simply about the money...why don't they apply to enter at Conference level...Id be very surprised if their applications were rejected what with the extra revenue and exposure that level would get with their inclusion.

See above. Although anyone that thinks the Old Firm will ever wind up in the BSN is a tool. Of course the Premier League would consider having them move straight in, money talks.

[broughtonblue]

What's stopping you then? There games up there every weekend during the football season, I'm sure they'd welcome your admission fee.

okay, perhaps i should have made it clear, but i would have thought most people would realise what i meant, it would be good to have a couple of weekends up there following city!!

[lcfc"weasel"]

okay, perhaps i should have made it clear, but i would have thought most people would realise what i meant, it would be good to have a couple of weekends up there following city!!

It's great up there anyway, following City or not.

[SystonFox]

Sosban fach has killed it! Big up ya chest. Right on so many levels

[davieG]

okay, perhaps i should have made it clear, but i would have thought most people would realise what i meant, it would be good to have a couple of weekends up there following city!!

I knew exactly what you meant.

Having them in the PL would mean two less English clubs in there, this would inevitable reduce LCFC's chances of getting into and staying in the PL. What makes you think we'd be lucky enough to be playing them?

Honestly some people really can't see the counter-productive aspect of this idea you might as well get a gun a shoot yourself in the foot.

[broughtonblue]

I knew exactly what you meant.

Having them in the PL would mean two less English clubs in there, this would inevitable reduce LCFC's chances of getting into and staying in the PL. What makes you think we'd be lucky enough to be playing them?

Honestly some people really can't see the counter-productive aspect of this idea you might as well get a gun a shoot yourself in the foot.

"what makes you think we'd be lucky enough to be playing them?" if you had read my post properly then you would have noticed i stated that they should start in league1 or 2. now unless sven does the unthinkable and gets us relegated to the blue square leagues then we would meet them at some point. talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

[BoneDog]

Rangers and Celtic would definitely be a force in our Premier League and once they were established I would think that both would be challenging for the top four nigh on every season.

In a way I would like to see them playing in our leagues because I'd love to go up there to an away match with Leicester and seeing them and their fans at The Walkers for a league or cup game would be a great experience.

It's a shame that there isn't some kind of club cup competition involving English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish teams.