stockyfox Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Although under Sven's guidance, the team have made significant progress up the league table, many fans, whilst enjoying the success and style of football being played, have an underlying concern that so many of the squad are loanees and that, come the end of the season, most if not all, may well return to their principal Clubs. Thus, irrespective of whether we are promoted or not, it might well be the case that the squad will need to be re-built in the summer. We are aware that Sven has money available but in truth, whereas managers are prepared to let players go out on loan, they are not prepared to let them leave full stop! Take Harry Redknapp at Spurs. I would be delighted to see Kyle Naughton sign for us on a permanent basis but Harry is cagey and reluctant to sell. The loan signings of Ben Mee, Patrick van Aanholt and Jeffrey Bruma means we have a back four belong to other Clubs with the result that those players who have served the Club well and found favour with the fans, are now perhaps looking to ply their trade elsewhere. Yet we have failed to secure the permanent services of previous loanees, notably Tom Cleverley and Mark Davies whilst we have seen players like Max Gradel depart. The imminent departure of Jack Hobbs raises a niggling question mark as to whether we will ever see him in a City shirt again. Then there is 'The Yak'. Will his success at Leicester prompt Moyes to recall him to a struggling Everton side? At least, we didn't 'buy' Bednar! Or for that matter, Curtis Davies and although tragic were the circumstances that resulted in Greg Cunningham returning to Man City, at least we had not paid out a transfer fee as such. I found it also reassuring to hear that Sven had decided not to further his interest in one certain player because it involved 'crazy money'! So loan or buy is truly a dilemma. Is it ethical? If we want success –and of course we all do- then I suppose we have to take advantage of what the system offers.
Bob Farley Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Lets win games and take it as it comes yeah?
STUHILL Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Sven built this awesome team part way through the season in the mix of games. Just think what he could do with the same backing and a whole summer of using his contacts book. I am not worried at all, more excited than anything!
cc_star Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 We don't know how much pressure Sven is under behind the scenes as he's the coolest calmest character in football. The loan signings have been great for the clubs promotion aims, the quality of them (Kirkland & Bednar aside) have been exceptional, so you can't fault Sven at all. The higher volume of loan signings may indicate just how much the owners want (maybe need) promotion this season and the kind of pressure Sven may be under, at least Sven has showed their money is in safe hands. We wouldn't have a chance of signing this class of player permanently in this division, so what choice is there? If we go up, I can see many of them signing permanently next year, with the exception of the Chelsea pairing who seem to be part of Chelsea's long-term plans If we don't go up, I think Sven will sign plenty of players permanently in the summer & bolster the squad with a few season long loans (maybe PVA & Bruma again) but whatever happens I think Naughton will be playing Premiership football next season, lets hope it's with us. Short-termism is a very valid criticisim, however we have one short-term aim & that to get in the Prem, there's no way we'd have been able to sign Naughton, Yak & co in this division on permanents Just imagine the calibre of signings we're going to see when we do get in the Prem (this season or next)
drc Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 We don't know how much pressure Sven is under behind the scenes as he's the coolest calmest character in football. I agree, football owners are very impatient even if they appear to be good for the club. One can just hope that the thai-owners are patient. If we didn't go up - I wouldn't be schocked if they would sack Sven, and if they would it will be a big problem that the team needs to be rebuilt ones again. When Sven was running Manchester city the fans were happy with the results and were aiming for the next season that sen had build up for. They also thought (not all of them) that Thaksin Shinawatra seemed to be honest and good because you want to believe it. Then a bad run and Sven was sacked even though they were regelate-candidates before the season and Sven came in very late pre season that time too.
Darkon84 Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Lets win games and take it as it comes yeah?
Haydos Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Lets win games and take it as it comes yeah? What has that got to do with anything he wrote Good read, sounds more like a premise for a blog than a thread on here It's a question many have addressed in recent weeks and I've got a feeling it divides opinion. Most seem to want their cake and eat it though. They would like quality full-time signings and to be in this position but personally I don't believe that was as possible in January as people think. We managed to bring in a very strong unit in January aimed at a promotion push in the latter half of this year and so far it looks like it's paying off. The flip side is you will get plenty off moaners complaining about the amount of loan signings when in reality we would probably still be lingering mid table without a shot of the play offs had Sven decided to tie down more permanent signings. Quality available on loan in Jan > quality available on permanents a reasonable price. I think it's as simple as that and we've seen (Bamba, Ricardo, Vassell) that if there is a player available to sign with us that fits the bill then he will come, albeit at a reasonable price. In conclusion I'm definitely happy with what's been done so far. The short term goal of promotion is still a very distinct possibility and the real building job comes in the summer when we have a full season to prepare for.
Haydos Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Lets win games and take it as it comes yeah? What has that got to do with anything he wrote Good read, sounds more like a premise for a blog than a thread on here It's a question many have addressed in recent weeks and I've got a feeling it divides opinion. Most seem to want their cake and eat it though. They would like quality full-time signings and to be in this position but personally I don't believe that was as possible in January as people think. We managed to bring in a very strong unit in January aimed at a promotion push in the latter half of this year and so far it looks like it's paying off. The flip side is you will get plenty off moaners complaining about the amount of loan signings when in reality we would probably still be lingering mid table without a shot of the play offs had Sven decided to tie down more permanent signings. Quality available on loan in Jan > quality available on permanents a reasonable price. I think it's as simple as that and we've seen (Bamba, Ricardo, Vassell) that if there is a player available to sign with us that fits the bill then he will come, albeit at a reasonable price. In conclusion I'm definitely happy with what's been done so far. The short term goal of promotion is still a very distinct possibility and the real building job comes in the summer when we have a full season to prepare for.
ithuriel Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 The owners signed Sven on a two year contract with a simple target, promotion. They are not going to sack him come the end of the season if we do not go up this year. The loan signings have been good for the club this season. When Sven arrived we we're bottom with a squad seemingly low on moral and survival being the major worry and now we are just outside the play off places. Considering when Sven arrived we could only make loan signings and with the transfer window being pretty dead with clubs not wanting to let players move except for stupid money the managers done decent business in the transfer market.
Brauniefox Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Lets win games and take it as it comes yeah?
Brauniefox Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Lets win games and take it as it comes yeah? Personally I would like to see the loan system scrapped and all players should have to be bought and money paid up front so if they couldn't afford it then they would have to do without.
Haydos Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Personally I would like to see the loan system scrapped and all players should have to be bought and money paid up front so if they couldn't afford it then they would have to do without. What about for younger players going out for experience?
SMX11 Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Personally I would like to see the loan system scrapped and all players should have to be bought and money paid up front so if they couldn't afford it then they would have to do without. The loan system is vital imo. Young players need to get as much first team football as possible and I guess that is the main reason why the loan system was introduced. Like others I am slightly concerned that we have a lot of loanees in the first team but I believe that if we can attract most of them if we get promoted. Naughton, Yakubu will certainly be signed if we go up and perhaps Mee as well. Van Aanholt and Bruma are certainly unlikely to impossible to get on permanant basis unless Chelsea want rid. However, the thing we do have is a good spine of the team which are contracted to us. Weale, Bamba, Wellens, King, Abe, Gallagher, Vassell, Dyer etc are the spine of the team so I don't think it will be the end of the world if we don't go up. Although, I believe our chances of going up are improving with every game this group of players play.
artursteppe Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Personally I would like to see the loan system scrapped and all players should have to be bought and money paid up front so if they couldn't afford it then they would have to do without. The loan system is great, great for clubs in lower leagues who can secure a short term improvement in quality from players at more successful clubs and great for the players ( especially the younger ones )because they will actually get the chance to play in competitive matches and improve their skills. We have several young players out on loan who could return and be Leicester City first team squad members more quickley than they otherwise would have. It is also great for the fans because the quality on the pitch is inevitably improved as well as the quality of footballers in this country because of the opportunity for quality young players to gain valuable experience. I really can't see how everything about the loan system could be evaluated as anything but good for everyone, except of course the 'journeymen' who inevitably lose their place in their team - and before anyone concludes that such a person may be Jack Hobbs, that would obviously not be the case it would be a player in the lower leagues through the 'knock on' effect.
Captain... Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 In general terms I am not a fan of the whole loan system, I think it is too widely used and in some cases abused, I also find it frustrsting that there is no transparency over what clubs are paying for loan services. I don't know how much we have paid in loan fees nor how much we are paying in wages for these players. We had 10 million available for transfers, then we sold Fryatt and Morrison, so make that 11 million, have we spent all of that on loans The thing is the loan system has come about as it is because of the trasfer window, premiership clubs now need at least a squad of 22 top quality players, basically 2 first teams because if they don't and a player gets injured they can't sign anyone as cover, then they need further backup in case something happens to their second choice in that position. You look at the number of players warming benches in the PL and it is very sad, how much young talent has been snapped up by the bigger teams and not been played. Pre transfer window you had a first 11, and a few quality subs, and the rest were made up of youth team players. A serious injury and someone was signed as a replacement in the mean time a youth team player would get a chance, be it on the bench or in the squad. Take spurs who we have Naughton on loan from, they signed Naugton and Kyle Walker at the same time, from the same club to play in the same position despite having Alan Hutton already in that position. This is a nonsense situation which is detrimental to the English game and the development of youngsters. With regards to Leicester's Loanees (doesn't quite have the same ring as Busby's Babes does it) we have no chance of signing PVA, or Vitor, not sure about Bruma, Chelsea have a lot of defenders if we can offer him first team premiership football then he might want to come, but whether Chelsea will let him is a different matter, I'm not sure we would want him if we can sign Mee. Mee doesn't look to be in Mancini's plans they have a lot of defenders and we may be able to pick him up, it depends on whether Mancini has seen the given away penalties for England U21and us or the magnificent defensive performances of late. Naughton is another possility, Spurs also have Kyle Walker in that position who is playing well for Villa, this could be good for our chances or bad. If Villa want Walker then Spurs might want to keep Naughton, on the other hand if Walker is playing well for Villa, a prem club, Spurs might want to keep Walker and let Naughton go. As good as he is, he is probably not ready for the Champions League just yet. My understanding is Yakubu is ours if we want him at the end of the season. Have Sven's loans been successful? Yes in the short term, in the long term, we will have to see, come the final whistle of the season we will have a seriously depleted squad and Sven will have so negotiation to do, if we are to sign any of these loanees lets do it early pre season not last minute like Waghorn.
Brauniefox Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Bring bach Reserve team football and the young players would play in that every week then if a first team player is having a dip in form and a player in the reserves was playing well you gave a chance and put him in the first team .That's how it used to be done.
dave the caveman Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Bring bach Reserve team football and the young players would play in that every week then if a first team player is having a dip in form and a player in the reserves was playing well you gave a chance and put him in the first team .That's how it used to be done. Yes that's how it used to be done. Back when football was less popular and football players weren't as good as they are now. But we simply must go back to them days because anything that happened in the past is automatically better than what is happening now. These arguments against the loan system are laughable. A lack of financial transparency? Because the finances of private businesses should be available to everyone, right? And apart from the loan system, they are? You wouldn't get a lack of transparency anywhere else in football, no? Bring on the loans if they have us winning games. To be a premiership team you first need to be in the premiership.
artursteppe Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Captain Shrapnell, some of what you say is OKish, but are you really questioning whether or not we are spending £11 million on our loanees. Yakubu will be no more than the price we got for Matty Fryatt, the others may be ( at the most ) a similar amount between them. What are you on? What Sven has done is give us a really good team to watch, winning matches, with a chance of promotion this year by hardly spending anything. The man is a star. Furthermore if we do get promotion, whichever of the loanees Sven might want to buy would seriously think of asking their clubs to sell them for the opportunity to play first team football in the Premiership with us which they probably would not get at Chelsea or Manchester City to anywhere near the same degree. The one I would have thought least likely to be with us next season if we go up is Miguel Vitor, because he is real quality and Benfica would want to keep him, and he is a young footballer in a foreign country - on the other hand the Premier League is much better than the top Portuguese league.
nickelbyfox Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Yes that's how it used to be done. Back when football was less popular and football players weren't as good as they are now. But we simply must go back to them days because anything that happened in the past is automatically better than what is happening now. These arguments against the loan system are laughable. A lack of financial transparency? Because the finances of private businesses should be available to everyone, right? And apart from the loan system, they are? You wouldn't get a lack of transparency anywhere else in football, no? Bring on the loans if they have us winning games. To be a premiership team you first need to be in the premiership. Have to agree, who has a clue about the loans and what we pay if we get to the prem then great! I have a feeling all these loans will be ideal if we get to the prem this year, and then he can really dish out on quality players! Personally think this is what he is doing rather than spending a mil here and there to bring in players to get us up but probably not good enough to keep us up! However as people highlight on the flip side, if we don't get promoted it could all be very interesting next year.
Haydos Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Captain Shrapnell, some of what you say is OKish, but are you really questioning whether or not we are spending £11 million on our loanees. Yakubu will be no more than the price we got for Matty Fryatt, the others may be ( at the most ) a similar amount between them. What are you on? What Sven has done is give us a really good team to watch, winning matches, with a chance of promotion this year by hardly spending anything. The man is a star. Furthermore if we do get promotion, whichever of the loanees Sven might want to buy would seriously think of asking their clubs to sell them for the opportunity to play first team football in the Premiership with us which they probably would not get at Chelsea or Manchester City to anywhere near the same degree. The one I would have thought least likely to be with us next season if we go up is Miguel Vitor, because he is real quality and Benfica would want to keep him, and he is a young footballer in a foreign country - on the other hand the Premier League is much better than the top Portuguese league. Perhaps a little naive to think these young players are going to make us their priority. A lot of players are starry eyed and will think they can make it big at the top clubs, and on a hefty wage as well. Naughton looks to be enjoying himself though and hopefully we'll grow on the likes of Mee, PVA and Bruma as it's always nice to have options. With regards to the money spent, to be fair we may well have spent a fair bit, maybe not 11m but as people have said, we just don't know. Chances are we paid a fairly large fee to take Yakubu and Naughton, maybe smaller ones for PVA, Bruma and Mee. If you start throwing wages in then Yakubu alone may be on 50k p/w which would add another £1m or so. It all adds up.
Captain... Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Captain Shrapnell, some of what you say is OKish, but are you really questioning whether or not we are spending £11 million on our loanees. Yakubu will be no more than the price we got for Matty Fryatt, the others may be ( at the most ) a similar amount between them. What are you on? What Sven has done is give us a really good team to watch, winning matches, with a chance of promotion this year by hardly spending anything. The man is a star. Furthermore if we do get promotion, whichever of the loanees Sven might want to buy would seriously think of asking their clubs to sell them for the opportunity to play first team football in the Premiership with us which they probably would not get at Chelsea or Manchester City to anywhere near the same degree. The one I would have thought least likely to be with us next season if we go up is Miguel Vitor, because he is real quality and Benfica would want to keep him, and he is a young footballer in a foreign country - on the other hand the Premier League is much better than the top Portuguese league. I am not saying we have spent 11 million, but we had 11 million to spend, and with the loan situation is at the moment we have no idea how much we have spent, that was my criticism not of Sven but of the complete lack of transparency of what goes on at the club, I have no idea how much a loan fee normally is, the rumours were of 1 million + wages to sign Yakubu, but then with a buy option at the end of the season probably based on the 1 million we have already forked out, but I really don't know. I tried to do some research on this subject and a quick google search shows a number of lower league managers complaining about the loan fees being demanded by PL clubs, Sven has recently said he has turned down a player beacause of the amount being asked. We don't know who. One relevatn one was Kyle Walker, Spurs wanted 200k from Hull to have him on loan, it is not to great a stretch of the imagination to think we paid a similar amount to get Naughton on loan, twice. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1311535/Tottenham-want-200-000-loan-fee-Hull-City-target-Kyle-Walker.html http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Derby-and-Coventry-left-stunned-as-Everton-demand-six-figure-loan-fee-for-striker-James-Vaughan-article316471.html Loans since Sven came. Naughton, twice Cunningham Davies Bednar Kirkland Mee Bruma PVA Yakubu Uchechi (not from PL so probably no loan fee) Plus the signings of Bamba, Ricardo and Vassell At no point did I criticise Sven for doing so, but we have no idea how much all of that activity cost us, in terms of loan fees and wages, I don't think it is as little as some people on here believe. 6 figure loan fees are not unlikely, x 10 and you are talking millions then PL wages of course. All of it will come back and then some if we get promoted and I think that Sven has been shrewd in the market, but I have no idea how shrewd. Like I said I was not criticising Sven but it is impossible to know what is actually going on in terms of finances when transfers are all undisclosed fees with extras, no one knows what loan fees are being paid and what proportion of the wages are being paid. The general feeling in football is that we are spending a lot of money, they are probably right, those on the inside will know a lot more than we do.
Brauniefox Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 Dave. You say football is more popular now then years ago, the crowds thirty ,forty .or fifty years ago were far higher than what they are now, and you can't say the players are better then say the likes OFGeorge Best,Jimmy Greaves,Bobby Charlton John Charles, Ivor Allchurch ,Tom Finney, Stanley Mathews. Tommy Lawton,and many others.
blueredswed Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 I am not saying we have spent 11 million, but we had 11 million to spend, and with the loan situation is at the moment we have no idea how much we have spent, that was my criticism not of Sven but of the complete lack of transparency of what goes on at the club, I have no idea how much a loan fee normally is, the rumours were of 1 million + wages to sign Yakubu, but then with a buy option at the end of the season probably based on the 1 million we have already forked out, but I really don't know. I tried to do some research on this subject and a quick google search shows a number of lower league managers complaining about the loan fees being demanded by PL clubs, Sven has recently said he has turned down a player beacause of the amount being asked. We don't know who. One relevatn one was Kyle Walker, Spurs wanted 200k from Hull to have him on loan, it is not to great a stretch of the imagination to think we paid a similar amount to get Naughton on loan, twice. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1311535/Tottenham-want-200-000-loan-fee-Hull-City-target-Kyle-Walker.html http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Derby-and-Coventry-left-stunned-as-Everton-demand-six-figure-loan-fee-for-striker-James-Vaughan-article316471.html Loans since Sven came. Naughton, twice Cunningham Davies Bednar Kirkland Mee Bruma PVA Yakubu Uchechi (not from PL so probably no loan fee) Plus the signings of Bamba, Ricardo and Vassell At no point did I criticise Sven for doing so, but we have no idea how much all of that activity cost us, in terms of loan fees and wages, I don't think it is as little as some people on here believe. 6 figure loan fees are not unlikely, x 10 and you are talking millions then PL wages of course. All of it will come back and then some if we get promoted and I think that Sven has been shrewd in the market, but I have no idea how shrewd. Like I said I was not criticising Sven but it is impossible to know what is actually going on in terms of finances when transfers are all undisclosed fees with extras, no one knows what loan fees are being paid and what proportion of the wages are being paid. The general feeling in football is that we are spending a lot of money, they are probably right, those on the inside will know a lot more than we do. I must say as long Top not say noooo it must have been OK! Don´t you think so? If we would like to play in PL as soon as possible it must cost
blueredswed Posted 15 February 2011 Posted 15 February 2011 But did we have 11 million to spend? Who knows. But Top think it´s still OK so 11 million or 15 million.....
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