35 Pts from last 81

[Babylon]

I interpreted that paragraph as meaning that you thought, despite you increased level of criticism, that he should have been given more time....

Just making the point of why I thought he had been given enough time......

My main point of the post was that we all have different ideas on what's enough time. More in response to CC seemingly calling anyone who thought he should have had a bit longer a "Sven Lover" on twitter. Just because I thought it was a couple of games too soon, doesn't make myself or anyone else a Sven lover.

I also addressed the point that there really wasn't many (if any) that thought it was only to do with the Millwall game (except for papers and pundits). Which is how he started his post off.

I've not moaned at the owners for sacking him, they have done what they thought best. Back to my original point, they might be a couple of games more impatient than myself, but they are a damn site more patient than many people on here who were on his back after half a dozen games into his time here.

[adam1]

35 points from a possble 81 also covers last season.

I personally think it is a shit excuse to sack the manager.

This season, slow start as you would expect from a team needing to gel.

Last ten games, 4 wins, 4 draws, 2 defeats.

Not exactly bad when you consider 2 of those defeats were in a space of 6 days with a win inbetween.

Its also 5 clean sheets.

[Foxblogger]

I think it's a little dangerous to rollover the form from last season to this one when you consider the vast changes in the squad. Only three players from the team which started against Ipswich on the final day of last season were in the starting XI against Millwall at the weekend (King, Abe, Wellens).

In that context 13 games isn't really a great deal of time, especially when you consider the record of clubs who sack their manager mid-season in the hope of reviving their promotion aspirations. It almost never pays off.

Of course the strength of this decision will only really be known when we see who the owners bring in to replace Sven. But for now, it's perfectly reasonable to express apprehension.

[FoxyPV]

Did anybody actually think it was because of one game though? (other than media and opposing fans)

I saw people saying it was a bit soon, but I can't remember anyone saying it was JUST because of the Millwall game. I'm fairly sure people are well aware our results since he arrived have been a mixed bag.

What this comes down to, is peoples individual interpretation of how long is enough time for a manager to get things right. Some people give them one game, Some people get on their back after a dozen (naming no names) some believe things take two year, where as many others sit somewhere in the middle.

I noticed you on twitter seemingly calling anyone who seemed to believe it was too soon a "Sven-lover", I'm not quite sure why you need to label people like that. I'm no Sven lover, I've only ever asked that he be given what I consider an appropriate amount of time.

He was very close to reaching that mark, which is why my recent posts have been a lot more critical of him, but for me it was a few games short. But I don't think it was knee jerk and I don't love Sven, and I'm sure most people fall into that category.

[Christoph]

I'd still rather he be given until Christmas just for stability sakes. But 35 from 81 is pretty crap.

[adam1]

I'd still rather he be given until Christmas just for stability sakes. But 35 from 81 is pretty crap.

But it is two different teams and over two different seasons.

[Corky]

I do believe it was on the back of the result, if it had been 1-0 I'm not sure they would've pulled the trigger.

But we haven't been good enough this season for the quality of player we've got and hopefully the next manager can improve our performances.

[marbelladave]

My main point of the post was that we all have different ideas on what's enough time. More in response to CC seemingly calling anyone who thought he should have had a bit longer a "Sven Lover" on twitter. Just because I thought it was a couple of games too soon, doesn't make myself or anyone else a Sven lover.

I also addressed the point that there really wasn't many (if any) that thought it was only to do with the Millwall game (except for papers and pundits). Which is how he started his post off.

I've not moaned at the owners for sacking him, they have done what they thought best. Back to my original point, they might be a couple of games more impatient than myself, but they are a damn site more patient than many people on here who were on his back after half a dozen games into his time here.

Fair 'nuff.

[Dan LCFC]

Disagree entirely.......

Sven arrived with the team at a very low ebb, he rejuvenated the team with a fair few new aquisitions and loans and the lift this gave was self evident, leading to a great run in January and February. As the season progressed he showed that he could not keep it going and once things started to go wrong he was not really able to make the changes neccessary to get us into the playoffs.

But he was given the benefit of the doubt at this time and he was given substantial funds to build 'his' team during the summer and prepare them for the season.

People would have understood a modest start to the season if they could see a plan, some sort of structure that suggested that a team capable of being promoted was in the making, but in reality there was none of that.

The only thing consistent about our performances was a disjointed, ill discplined approach that, for the resources available was not good enough, even worse, there was absolutely no suggestion that this was improving.

Something had to be done while the season was still savable and it was. I applaud the owners for their decisive action.....

Basically sums it all up for me.

[Col city fan]

Disagree entirely.......

Sven arrived with the team at a very low ebb, he rejuvenated the team with a fair few new aquisitions and loans and the lift this gave was self evident, leading to a great run in January and February. As the season progressed he showed that he could not keep it going and once things started to go wrong he was not really able to make the changes neccessary to get us into the playoffs.

But he was given the benefit of the doubt at this time and he was given substantial funds to build 'his' team during the summer and prepare them for the season.

People would have understood a modest start to the season if they could see a plan, some sort of structure that suggested that a team capable of being promoted was in the making, but in reality there was none of that.

The only thing consistent about our performances was a disjointed, ill discplined approach that, for the resources available was not good enough, even worse, there was absolutely no suggestion that this was improving.

Something had to be done while the season was still savable and it was. I applaud the owners for their decisive action.....

Thats why he was sacked... this was obvious to all but those wearing Sven tinted goggles

[Manwell Pablo]

But you're not the one covering the losses that have been run up by the club during the last 13 months and beyond.

Clearly, for the reasons stated in the original post, Vichai, Top and co concluded that Sven was no longer the man who could ensure that such losses would be recouped.

The pro-Sven brigade squeal about the distance from the play offs being a mere two points. But of more significance (certainly as far as the owners were concerned) is the fact that no fewer than SEVEN clubs (which will become eight if Brum beat Leeds tonight) stand between us and a place in the top six.

To put our start this season into real perspective, five years ago when Rob Kelly was in charge and had NO transfer budget whatsoever, we sat in 14th place after 13 games. The following year, we were also 14th after 13 games, despite the upheaval of having lost two managers by then.

We therefore had the right to expect far better this time around. But as others have observed, it wasn't just the disappointing recent results that were a factor - it was the sense that this manager, with the group of players which he assembled, were actually going backwards.

The owners have made a big call in making this change. Time will tell as to whether it leads to an improvement in fortunes.

It's still too soon. He's dropped a clanger with the lack of wingers, panic buying DJ Campbell MRK II and spending an obsence amount of money on a dirty defender who can't direct his headers or pass when Jack Hobbs was more than adequate in that role, was already here and on significantly less wages.

However, you might not agree with the way he was working th team but bringing someone else in now isn't going to help, they can't really change what we're doing unless they magically make wingers appear on "emergency" loans which I'm not even sure we can do now, and 13 games to bed in a new team was always going to be difficult, he should of been given until the end of November to show what he is made of. If we're still sitting mid table then fine sack him get someone and give them a month to bed in before the transfer window. Anyone taking this team is going to be very limited as to what they can do and apart from maybe getting a good reaction to the sacking immediatley from the players don't really see what we're getting out of it.

[Guest MattP]

Stringer just tweeted ahead of his interview that it's been the fact he's only accrued 35 pts from a possible 81 is the reason

Even I didnt realised it was that bad, absolutely pathetic to be honest considering the resources available.

[m00nie]

It's still too soon. He's dropped a clanger with the lack of wingers, panic buying DJ Campbell MRK II and spending an obsence amount of money on a dirty defender who can't direct his headers or pass when Jack Hobbs was more than adequate in that role, was already here and on significantly less wages.

However, you might not agree with the way he was working th team but bringing someone else in now isn't going to help, they can't really change what we're doing unless they magically make wingers appear on "emergency" loans which I'm not even sure we can do now, and 13 games to bed in a new team was always going to be difficult, he should of been given until the end of November to show what he is made of. If we're still sitting mid table then fine sack him get someone and give them a month to bed in before the transfer window. Anyone taking this team is going to be very limited as to what they can do and apart from maybe getting a good reaction to the sacking immediatley from the players don't really see what we're getting out of it.

wingers are not the only magical answer..

they may help, but motivation, formation changes, different attitude etc will be a good start in which hopefully the new manager will instil...

we have the squad who with a bit of motivation can perform together. and be prepared to alter things for different matches/teams. some may require a more direct approach etc..

[Manwell Pablo]

wingers is not the magical answer..

they may help, but motivation, formation changes, different attitude etc will be a good start in which hopefully the new manager will instil...

we have the squad who with a bit of motivation can perform together. and be prepared to alter things for different matches/teams. some may require a more direct approach etc..

Motivational wise I don't think sacking the manager that bought half the squad to the club less than 3 months ago is going to do much do you? I'm quite sure Steve Howard is not that bothred but then I wonder why that is? As I say there may be a slight short term uplift as a direct reaction from the players as you sometimes see when a manager is sacked but that wont last forever, and given we have West Ham at the weekend I can only see the misery being compounded. It's hard to change formation without the players to do so and are best formations are all narrow as... well I'll let you guess why, we lack options up front to mix it up there also we have Beckford, Nugent, an academy product who probably will get even less of a look in now Sven is gone (although hopefully not) and Howard who is looking like he's had his day. Will be difficult although not impossible for anyone to come in and do something meaningful with the squad we have.

There were obviously problems but it's not been delt with correctly IMO, a couple of wins and Sven's the hero again, now we're left with serious uncertainty and what it all comes down to is I think we've got less of a chance of going up this season now he has gone. The ships about to be steered in a completley new direction and it's again going to take time to settle things down.

[m00nie]

Motivational wise I don't think sacking the manager that bought half the squad to the club less than 3 months ago is going to do much do you? I'm quite sure Steve Howard is not that bothred but then I wonder why that is? As I say there may be a slight short term uplift as a direct reaction from the players as you sometimes see when a manager is sacked but that wont last forever, and given we have West Ham at the weekend I can only see the misery being compounded. It's hard to change formation without the players to do so and are best formations are all narrow as... well I'll let you guess why, we lack options up front to mix it up there also we have Beckford, Nugent, an academy product who probably will get even less of a look in now Sven is gone (although hopefully not) and Howard who is looking like he's had his day. Will be difficult although not impossible for anyone to come in and do something meaningful with the squad we have.

There were obviously problems but it's not been delt with correctly IMO, a couple of wins and Sven's the hero again, now we're left with serious uncertainty and what it all comes down to is I think we've got less of a chance of going up this season now he has gone. The ships about to be steered in a completley new direction and it's again going to take time to settle things down.

Just because a manager bought them in dont mean hes the only one who can inspire them. A new manager may have different approach and could possibly bring out the best in them..

how many times you seen one player perform better under certain managers...

its already came out sven had lost the dressing room recently. maybe a case of "too nice"

i thnk we still have a great shout for promotion, were only 2 points off the play offs, so we have time on our side, a big decent squad, backing in januaray if needed..

[seenitall]

If anyone is old enough to remember Brian Little , he built a defence out of free transfers in this league , that could defend better & harder that any of Svens recruits

Poole (free) Fitzpatrick £50k , Walsh (resident legend ) Whitlow ( 100,000 ? ) Hill ( 200k ? ) Plateplauer ( free )

Sven has spent a fortune & fogot the golden rule .......... stop the ball going in your own net first ............

Stunning - 6 goals conceded in 9 games (2 of which were penalties) and our defence is still shit - methinks you have some major disappointments ahead chap (Nicky Platnauer??)

[Thracian]

Terrific post, sums it up entirely......

I think there was a time when it would have been possible to make changes to the management structure by bringing in a first team coach that would have kept Sven on board but in a less 'hands on' role, something I have been advocating since around April.

Personally I think this would have been an excellent solution as a young, dynamic manager could have been brought in to deal with the 1st team and matchday matters with Sven, the 'big name' manager with a brief to overview all things football and to keep as much pressure off the new man as possible.

Maybe there were good reasons why this was not tried, maybe it was discussed, I don't know but there seems to have been a void in our management structure since the exit of Chris Powell that was never effectively filled.

Still that said, I think the owners gave Sven plenty of time to at least show that he was on track for the kind of performances and results that were required but like some of us on here, I feel they could not see the kind of game on game improvements that were needed and so decided to make a change.

They did this decisively and without mucking about and much as I would have liked to keep Sven on board, I applaud thim for their strength of conviction and determination.

The new manager will have about 30 games, a very strong squad, decent position in the league and no doubt some financial support in January. A fantastic position to start from......

To both you and cc_star.

[seenitall]

Even I didnt realised it was that bad, absolutely pathetic to be honest considering the resources available.

I thought it was 19 points from 13 games - we lost steam at the end of last season so got ourselves a new team - the only real signing Sven made in Jan last year was Bamba (arguably quite good, but probably crap because I think he's good) so basically we trundled on without a real keeper and with lots of players of Howard (splendid in League One 2 years ago) and Waghorn's (terrible always) ability and lots of journeymen on loan whose hearts were not in it and we all agreed they were not good enough. This season is 13 games old and we have 19 points - ideally we would have 22 and be 5th and 2 points off an automatic. That is one win away from serious contention - with over 30 games left. Still at least we can get somebody good now.

[accessory]

I thought it was 19 points from 13 games - we lost steam at the end of last season so got ourselves a new team - the only real signing Sven made in Jan last year was Bamba (arguably quite good, but probably crap because I think he's good) so basically we trundled on without a real keeper and with lots of players of Howard (splendid in League One 2 years ago) and Waghorn's (terrible always) ability and lots of journeymen on loan whose hearts were not in it and we all agreed they were not good enough. This season is 13 games old and we have 19 points - ideally we would have 22 and be 5th and 2 points off an automatic. That is one win away from serious contention - with over 30 games left. Still at least we can get somebody good now.

Stop trying to rewrite history just because your idol has been given the boot.

Without Waghorn's goals in 09-10 we would never have made the playoffs. If he gives us the chance of doing likewise this season, the incoming manager should use him.

I'd also trust a fit Tunchev over Bamba alongside Mills in central defence.

[seenitall]

If we want to get statistical on its ass, Svens record is 81pts from 49 games, which equals a rate of 1.65 points per game. This would have given us 76 points over a season (75.9 if you want to really nail it) and would have got us into last years play offs - the majority of those games was performed with Sousa's attempt at a team (5 points from 9 games or .55 of a point a game). This was, coincidentally, the same number of points that Nige got (but he was great) - 1.49 this season is too low but if we had won the Millwall game it would have been 1.69 which would make 78 points, which would have been good enough, so he was sacked over the Millwall game and that means a knee jerk reaction to a bad result, which effectively means that they will do it again and we will stay the laughing stock of the division and are unlikely to get any manager who knows it takes a good year to build a team capable of 1.69 points a game and possibly longer to build one that needs to achieve 2 points a game. I love statistics!

[Stevie Synex]

Terrific post, sums it up entirely......

I think there was a time when it would have been possible to make changes to the management structure by bringing in a first team coach that would have kept Sven on board but in a less 'hands on' role, something I have been advocating since around April.

Personally I think this would have been an excellent solution as a young, dynamic manager could have been brought in to deal with the 1st team and matchday matters with Sven, the 'big name' manager with a brief to overview all things football and to keep as much pressure off the new man as possible.

Maybe there were good reasons why this was not tried, maybe it was discussed, I don't know but there seems to have been a void in our management structure since the exit of Chris Powell that was never effectively filled.

Still that said, I think the owners gave Sven plenty of time to at least show that he was on track for the kind of performances and results that were required but like some of us on here, I feel they could not see the kind of game on game improvements that were needed and so decided to make a change.

They did this decisively and without mucking about and much as I would have liked to keep Sven on board, I applaud thim for their strength of conviction and determination.

The new manager will have about 30 games, a very strong squad, decent position in the league and no doubt some financial support in January. A fantastic position to start from......

Decent position in the league??!!

If Top is telling the truth and the selection process has only just begun then it could be after Burnley next week before a new manager is in place - that could well be two more defeats as we are effectively a "rudderless ship" at present. Combine that with the new managers first game in charge being sat in the stands whilst Leeds pull us apart and before you know we're potentially four defeats on the bounce and on the backfoot looking up at Forest and the likes.

The whole situation stinks of amaturism to me and whilst their money is impressive I am beginning to seriously question the people at the helm of the club, when asked about the candidates for the job Top says he was impressed with some of them and hadn't heard of others FFS. Who will be guiding/advising the owners now, who is directing the football side of the club.

A big worry for me.

[accessory]

If we want to get statistical on its ass, Svens record is 81pts from 49 games, which equals a rate of 1.65 points per game. This would have given us 76 points over a season (75.9 if you want to really nail it) and would have got us into last years play offs - the majority of those games was performed with Sousa's attempt at a team (5 points from 9 games or .55 of a point a game). This was, coincidentally, the same number of points that Nige got (but he was great) - 1.49 this season is too low but if we had won the Millwall game it would have been 1.69 which would make 78 points, which would have been good enough, so he was sacked over the Millwall game and that means a knee jerk reaction to a bad result, which effectively means that they will do it again and we will stay the laughing stock of the division and are unlikely to get any manager who knows it takes a good year to build a team capable of 1.69 points a game and possibly longer to build one that needs to achieve 2 points a game. I love statistics!

Sven didn't get 81 points, he got 78. We had 8 points when he took over last season.