marbelladave Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 Good post Dave.. The BBC though, don't forget, are possibly one of the most politically correct of all the British Institutions. The fact that the Beckford incident was conveniently overlooked last night is of no surprise. Karl Marx had it about spot on... (hows this for a bit of 'socialism' Captain Shrapnel) ..The ruling elite does control the mindset of everyone else, presenting what they choose to present, covering over what they choose to cover over The FA are a fantastic example of a 'closed shop' where any attempt at intrusion forces them to immediately close ranks and to 'punish', rather than 'explain.' FIFA are perhaps one of the best examples of this in action. Stocky is absolutely right.. More transparency on the part of footballing officials, although giving them more stress in the short-term, may well result in the fans reviving their faith them over the long-term which can only be good for the game. The only way to progress this is for the FA and its officials to be more transparent and in due course accountable. Sadly the modern way with any organisation that excerts power, be it parliment or the FA, is to do everything to maintain that power. This devolves down to the lowest level so that individual referees are not accountable and whenever questioned simply rearrange the facts so that they can hide behind the huge number of 'directives' from the likes of Fifa or the FA, that can be used to justify virtually any decision, sensible or not. Any dissent, even genuine questions about decisions, are either dismissed with disdain or punished and the arbitary and largely unexplained process leaves everyone frustrated, The recent NFP incident is a case in point, NFP swore at the ref and that will be punished in some way, the fact that the ref was; a) completely incompetent, virtually loosing control of the first half and b) out of order entering the dressing room and disrupting the managers team talk will not even be addressed. About the best that we can hope for is for the FA to repremand NFP rather than issue a ban, this will allow the FA to maintain the fiction that an offence was commited whilst at the same time appearing to be reasonable. Be interesting to see what actually happens.......
reynard Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 The only way to progress this is for the FA and its officials to be more transparent and in due course accountable. Sadly the modern way with any organisation that excerts power, be it parliment or the FA, is to do everything to maintain that power. This devolves down to the lowest level so that individual referees are not accountable and whenever questioned simply rearrange the facts so that they can hide behind the huge number of 'directives' from the likes of Fifa or the FA, that can be used to justify virtually any decision, sensible or not. Any dissent, even genuine questions about decisions, are either dismissed with disdain or punished and the arbitary and largely unexplained process leaves everyone frustrated, The recent NFP incident is a case in point, NFP swore at the ref and that will be punished in some way, the fact that the ref was; a) completely incompetent, virtually loosing control of the first half and b) out of order entering the dressing room and disrupting the managers team talk will not even be addressed. About the best that we can hope for is for the FA to repremand NFP rather than issue a ban, this will allow the FA to maintain the fiction that an offence was commited whilst at the same time appearing to be reasonable. Be interesting to see what actually happens....... Already said no further action I believe.
marbelladave Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 Already said no further action I believe. Interesting, about as close as the FA gets to saying 'our man ****ed up'........ Didn't know this when I made the post (obviously), but my point has been made, if the dismissal for NFP is not actually rescinded then the FA are still saying that he was in the wrong...... By taking no further action they deny NFP the right to have his say, yet still say he was in the wrong by not rescinding the dismisal, suits the FA down to the ground.
Tielemans63 Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 I can't understand why performances aren't more closely scrutinized. There have been quite a few referees on the continent who have been pinged for being involved in match-fixing yet we assume in this country that our boys in black are all as honest as the day is long, we put it down to them being just a bit, well..shit at times. I'm not saying they're all crooks, absolutely not, I'm sure 99% are honest (but still shit) but yet there are some truly mind-boggling decisions made that make me wonder about the integrity of some refs. Why are those really crazy decisions not explored a little further? It's not beyond the realms of possibility that our refs might make favourable decisions in return for a small but generous donation.
DANGEROUS TIGER Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 I think to put all the blame on the FA is a bit wide of the mark as poor as they are they no longer have the power or any influence to change how the game is managed and ruled for that you have to look to UEFA where a certain Mr Platini seems to have a dislike for the English leagues, probably because of all the money and FIFA which is ruled by an apparent self seeking egotistic dictator. Hmm. Interesting comment.
stfcinbmth Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 I'm afraid the rules are slowly turning it into a girls game. I know no one likes a ref, but they are not helped by all the diving, cheating and card waving There's nothing better than a good crunching tackle, but if FIFA/UEFA have their way it will eventually be a non contact sport
dedlock Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 Good and interesting posts. When I began watching City 55 years ago respect for the refs decisions was accepted. The authorities are reluctant to move with the times.Why can't refs have the benefit of TV review of major decisions or we fans hear the refs explanation for his decision. I'm no rugger fan but like Dave I saw some of the highlights of the England game. The miked ref explained each decision at the time, he also could ask the TV ref when he was unclear whether he could award a try.Most other professional sports use technology to ensure fairness ,to assist refs or umpires,thereby ensuring respect for officials. FIFA /UEFA /FA's refusal creates confusion and diminishes repect for refs. Beckford's red card yesterday remains a mystery. Viewing the FLS is inconclusive but the commentator suggests 'something untoward' was said.The OS suggests A kick at the centre back.NP won't say what he was told.Why could'nt a miked ref inform the fans at the time or ,at least, provide a reason for the decision post match?
davieG Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 I'm no fan of the FA but I remember them offering to trial goal line technology and FIFA/Blatter saying we don't need it and didn't they introduced addition Assistant Refs to view the goal line for EURO and other major tournaments instead. I believe they are afraid of refs being 'shown' up but I'm sure it would take the pressure and media spot light off them. A lot of errors they make are innocent misjudgements caused by the limited view they have and the pace of the game, these errors would become more acceptable as part of the game if key issues could be scrutinised before judgement is made. One of the concerns is technology would slow the game down well they couldn't slow it much more than the seriously long time that is wasted setting up free kicks and the excessive petty incidents coupled with the inability of many to use the advantage rule, the Danns incident yesterday should have resulted in a goal for Brighton if he'd not been too hasty with the whistle, ok it wouldn't have helped us but it would benefit the game in general.
Mack Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 I think our society as a whole has lost the ingredient of respect.
gazfox9 Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 Anyone still in any doubt of how 'bent' the FA are need look no further than the Alan Shearer/Neil Lennon incident........ The England captain bang to rights, waht do they do................. oh, let him off with a 'charge' that wasn't even in our rulebook.
wellyfox Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 At some point in time a rich owner that has shelled out millions like ours have. Are going to look into taking a ref that given a card for nothing or an unseen tackle to court. There is too much resting on this now and league rules say you can't. Well if you have enough money and the right legal team you will get round it. At some point these guys have gotta be bought to justice and it wont just be goal line cams they will be used alover.
DB11 Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 I have suggested a system where Red cards are only given for really serious offences, proper dangerous play or dissent so serious that it has to be dealt with. Players collect as many yellow cards as are given, after the game the ref 'grades' the offences from say, 1 pt for a technical offence up to 5 pts for the most serious. The players points are totted up and bans issued on the points aquired over a rolling 10 game period, ie too many points aquired in the last 10 games and the player gets a ban. These can be made severe enough that a regular offender spends more time being banned than playing. It has the additional advantage that players who collect a lot of bans become much less valuble to their club, both in playing and financial terms. And good luck with the administration of that.
Narborough Bod Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 And good luck with the administration of that. Or go down the hockey route, 3 tiered card system. Green card as equivalent of footy yellow. Then a yellow card whuch brings 10 mins in the sin bin (or more if the umpire feels it's necessary) & finally a very rarely used red. Personally i'd rather see dissent met with a sin bin than a full red, but would you get consistency, who knows?
steveherbe Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 Sin bin is the way to go. Yellow card = 10 mins. So simple, so logical, so the FA wont use it!
davieG Posted 5 February 2012 Posted 5 February 2012 Sin bin is the way to go. Yellow card = 10 mins. So simple, so logical, so the FA wont use it! The FA can't, FIFA are the only ones that can introduce rule changes, the FA have no power beyond interpreting the rules.
stockyfox Posted 5 February 2012 Author Posted 5 February 2012 Yesterday, around 2500 fans made the trip to Brighton. let us say that the day was at an average cost of £40 each to include travel, admission, programme, eating / drinking out etc. etc. Now you may say that's an exaggerated figure or alternatively a drop in the ocean to what you spent if you were one of the 2500. Whatever, it makes the point that if that figure is regarded as reasonable, it means that those Leicester City fans are culmulatively £100.000 the poorer today than before they went. What 'respect'' were they given? A few more farces like that (and not for the first time) and fans will start to question whether going to a match is worth the time, trouble and expense. I can see that, you can see that, why can't they see that?
marbelladave Posted 6 February 2012 Posted 6 February 2012 Very good post stocky. We are already beginning to see the results of this, fans are getting fed up with the way the game is being slanted towards the top clubs, we may think it is tough now but we are, in the main simply having to deal with crap referees. Imagine how much worse it will be if we get to the Premier League, imagine games against the top teams, we, like the rest of the lower Premier League clubs, will get routinely shafted by biased referees siding with the big clubs....... It is bad enough having to compete with teams that routinely buy trophies without them having the officials on their side as well. Playing ManU with Howard Webb in charge? Shouldn't even bother turning up, even Chelsea cant get a fair deal......
Simmo86 Posted 6 February 2012 Posted 6 February 2012 Very good post stocky. We are already beginning to see the results of this, fans are getting fed up with the way the game is being slanted towards the top clubs, we may think it is tough now but we are, in the main simply having to deal with crap referees. Imagine how much worse it will be if we get to the Premier League, imagine games against the top teams, we, like the rest of the lower Premier League clubs, will get routinely shafted by biased referees siding with the big clubs....... It is bad enough having to compete with teams that routinely buy trophies without them having the officials on their side as well. Playing ManU with Howard Webb in charge? Shouldn't even bother turning up, even Chelsea cant get a fair deal...... Really? Cahill could of quite easily gone early doors and Young should of had a pen and both pens in the second half while soft, were the correct decisions. People just jump on this Webb favours Man Utd bandwagon!
marbelladave Posted 6 February 2012 Posted 6 February 2012 Really? Cahill could of quite easily gone early doors and Young should of had a pen and both pens in the second half while soft, were the correct decisions. People just jump on this Webb favours Man Utd bandwagon! Just look at the history, benefit of the doubt goes to the big clubs pretty much every time. Rooney's foul mouthed behaviour and petulance should have been addressed and was not, happens every week. The bias does not need to be huge, over the course of a tight game a few decisions here and there is sufficient, modern referees have far more impact on the game and their sanctions are out of all proportion to the offences they are seeking to redress. Webb failed somewhat in his duty yesterday, not giving the decisions you mention perhaps, but as usual Sir Alex was all over the press this morning complaining that the officials did not do enough to give his team an undeserved victory......
gazfox9 Posted 6 February 2012 Posted 6 February 2012 Anyone else in doubt check the stats. Of all the penalties awarded by Howard Webb in the premier league, 17% have been awarded to....................................erm, oh yes, Manchester United. Hmmmm.
marbelladave Posted 6 February 2012 Posted 6 February 2012 Anyone else in doubt check the stats. Of all the penalties awarded by Howard Webb in the premier league, 17% have been awarded to....................................erm, oh yes, Manchester United. Hmmmm. It is also the consistent bias in smaller matters that makes a difference, the steady drip, drip of marginal decisions going to the favoured team that wear down the smaller club, causing frustration and reaction, normal reactions which are often penalised by the ref.
davieG Posted 6 February 2012 Posted 6 February 2012 It is also the consistent bias in smaller matters that makes a difference, the steady drip, drip of marginal decisions going to the favoured team that wear down the smaller club, causing frustration and reaction, normal reactions which are often penalised by the ref. ..and that's why certain 'renowned' managers like Ferguson make a big fuss because they know it will have sub-conscious affect on the ref. I notice also in his ltest rant Ferguson absolves Webb of any blame and attaches it all to the Asst Ref. Then we'll get Ferguson suggesting we should respect referees even though his team are one of the worst culprits at abusing and surrounding refs
accessory Posted 6 February 2012 Posted 6 February 2012 It is also the consistent bias in smaller matters that makes a difference, the steady drip, drip of marginal decisions going to the favoured team that wear down the smaller club, causing frustration and reaction, normal reactions which are often penalised by the ref. That trend wasn't evident on Saturday, or indeed in the previous City game.
Steven Posted 6 February 2012 Posted 6 February 2012 I'm no fan of the FA but I remember them offering to trial goal line technology and FIFA/Blatter saying we don't need it and didn't they introduced addition Assistant Refs to view the goal line for EURO and other major tournaments instead. I believe they are afraid of refs being 'shown' up but I'm sure it would take the pressure and media spot light off them. A lot of errors they make are innocent misjudgements caused by the limited view they have and the pace of the game, these errors would become more acceptable as part of the game if key issues could be scrutinised before judgement is made. One of the concerns is technology would slow the game down well they couldn't slow it much more than the seriously long time that is wasted setting up free kicks and the excessive petty incidents coupled with the inability of many to use the advantage rule, the Danns incident yesterday should have resulted in a goal for Brighton if he'd not been too hasty with the whistle, ok it wouldn't have helped us but it would benefit the game in general. Then way not let the trainer on whilst the game is going on, rugby style, rather than stop the game to allow a player to indulge in gamesmanship?
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