68 Years Ago

[Nick]

Webbo has got a point Zingari.

Despite the fact he finds it hard to get his tongue out of his cheek.

[Zingari]

But they're the wrong opinions, he must be a sociopath.

Or he could just be wrong in his opinion ( or right or a combination both )

It seems the ones claiming to be the most liberal minded , are the very same that circle like sharks on someone that doesn't buy their whole philosophy .

edit;

i knew it was t in c

[Nick]

Webbo ordered the code red.

[Zingari]

Webbo ordered the code red.

[Nick]

It's not safe to go back in the water.

[davieG]

You can't say borrowing money for infrastructure projects, ports, docks,roads, railways etc benefit only a few rich people.

If they become white elephants which many in Spain have then they do, well those those involved in the building of them using public money.

Three years ago the mayor of Alcorcon embarked on a hugely ambitious project.

Some 100m euros ($124m; £80m) was to be invested in a world-beating culture and arts centre, complete with nine buildings, three underground levels, and even a circus.

But it did not work out.

The area where the project was being built is now a sorry sight.

Inside, light fittings hang loose and the half-finished futuristic buildings are surrounded by a graffiti-covered corrugated iron fence.

A project that was meant to put the local area on the map has instead become an unsightly symbol of Spain's past unhealthy habit of regional overspending.

Many regions in the country owe billions of euros, partly because some local politicians built anything from airports to swimming pools to cultural projects during the boom times.

Some of those projects now lie unfinished, empty or inactive. Others were completed as planned.

But most of them have one thing in common: they have left big holes in local public finances.

Take Valencia's City of Arts and Sciences, which was opened back in 1998. The cultural initiative was finished, it is fully operating and very impressive.

But its budget deficit is still some 600m euros, with local media claiming that costs doubled to almost 1.3bn euros.

Black hole

Alcorcon, on the outskirts of Madrid, had a change of mayor a year ago.

Continue reading the main story

“Start Quote

An airport in Ciudad Real, for what?”

Celestino SueroCE Consulting

David Perez Garcia is the new man in charge of the city, where some 180,000 people live.

He says legal fees and out-of-control costs have pushed the final price of the culture and arts centre to perhaps as much as 170m euros.

"It has eaten up all the town's resources," he says, pointing to how the city has been left with 612m euros of debts.

"Even the electricity bills aren't being paid. All the money has been sacrificed to this building."

Build now, pay later

According to Llatzer Moix, author of Miracle architecture, the success of Bilbao's Guggenheim Museum in the Basque Country, which attracts nearly a million visitors every year, gave other Spanish cities "cultural envy".

There was a mentality of "my neighbour has that wonderful new facility so I want another one like theirs, or probably even a better one", he says.

As well as large cultural projects, Spain's transport infrastructure grew exponentially during the boom years.

Work on a new airport, costing 150m euros in the autonomous community of Valencia in the east of Spain, finished in March last year.

But not a single plane has landed on its runway.

In the city of Ciudad Real, a short train journey south of Madrid, another empty, expensive airport lies empty.

"An airport in Ciudad Real, for what?" says Celestino Suero from CE Consulting, a nationwide Spanish consultancy firm. "No-one uses it."

Failing projects should simply be closed down, Mr Suero insists, calling for more central government control over Spanish regions' finances.

"Spain has become a country in which every region does what it wants," he says.

"Spain's problems will not be solved unless its autonomous communities are properly regulated."

Fixing the region's debt

A rise in Spain's budget deficit for this year, to 8.9% of GDP from 8.5% a year earlier, has been attributed to the indebted regions.

As a result, the central government in Madrid has set a tough 1.5% budget deficit target for all of the autonomous communities for this year.

The government has also said it will provide cheap loans for regional governments so they can pay off their debts.

The hope is that this will help mollify the European Commission, which earlier this week said it was ready to postpone Spain's 3% of GDP budget deficit target from 2013 to 2014 - though on the condition that the Spanish regions also get their public finances in order.

Much of the debt held by Spain's regional governments is owed to small, local businesses, which carried out work for local authorities and have still not been paid.

Enrique Martin, owns Distripaper, a printing and public relations company in Alcorcon.

The former administration at the town hall owed him 80,000 euros for work on a marketing campaign that he carried out on their behalf.

Because he was not paid, he had to let five of his 11 employees go.

He believes the idea of building a multimillion euro cultural centre in the town was flawed from the very beginning.

"It was too big for a town like ours," he says.

"The cost was far too high."

[Webbo]

If they become white elephants which many in Spain have then they do, well those those involved in the building of them using public money.

You can't compare Docks and roads with cultural centres.

Banks are in the business of lending money. If some local council decide they want to build a new theatre that's no bigger than than the one it replaced at great cost or if they want to spend £4million on digging up a carpark and putting down some slabs and calling it a square, then you can't blame the banks for lending them the money they asked for.

[davieG]

You can't compare Docks and roads with cultural centres.

Banks are in the business of lending money. If some local council decide they want to build a new theatre that's no bigger than than the one it replaced at great cost or if they want to spend £4million on digging up a carpark and putting down some slabs and calling it a square, then you can't blame the banks for lending them the money they asked for.

It depends who's on those councils and whether they are party to the get rich quick through the tax payer, I certainly wouldn't trust them not to have had their snouts in the trough. You only have to look at our own cheating MPs and local Councillors.

[Nick]

Or he could just be wrong in his opinion ( or right or a combination both )

It seems the ones claiming to be the most liberal minded , are the very same that circle like sharks on someone that doesn't buy their whole philosophy .

edit;

i knew it was t in c

So if one has a 'Liberal Belief or Value Base' and another person has a different set of values or beliefs and the Liberal disagrees with said set of other beliefs, by virtue they become a 'Facist Liberal' who police the views of others rather than being pink and fluffy and saying we should all live in harmony and respect everybody's beliefs. Being a Liberal doesn't mean lying down in the road shouting"It's his right as a human to run over me"

We need to sort this out.

When does a liberal become a revolutionist dictator - It's a fine line on these boards eh?

[Webbo]

So if one has a 'Liberal Belief or Value Base' and another person has a different set of values or beliefs and the Liberal disagrees with said set of other beliefs, by virtue they become a 'Facist Liberal' who police the views of others rather than being pink and fluffy and saying we should all live in harmony and respect everybody's beliefs. Being a Liberal doesn't mean lying down in the road shouting"It's his right as a human to run over me"

We need to sort this out.

When does a liberal become a revolutionist dictator - It's a fine line on these boards eh?

You can accept that some people have a different opinion to you and you can discuss these views and explain why you think they're wrong or alternatively you can assume you're never wrong and patronise and look down your nose at people who disagree with you.

I prefer the former, you tend to favour the latter.

[Nick]

You can accept that some people have a different opinion to you and you can discuss these views and explain why you think they're wrong or alternatively you can assume you're never wrong and patronise and look down your nose at people who disagree with you.

I prefer the former, you tend to favour the latter.

I'll discuss with the rational.

I'll respond to the deluded.

That's why we get on about half the time, Webbo.

[Zingari]

So if one has a 'Liberal Belief or Value Base' and another person has a different set of values or beliefs and the Liberal disagrees with said set of other beliefs, by virtue they become a 'Facist Liberal' who police the views of others rather than being pink and fluffy and saying we should all live in harmony and respect everybody's beliefs. Being a Liberal doesn't mean lying down in the road shouting"It's his right as a human to run over me"

We need to sort this out.

When does a liberal become a revolutionist dictator - It's a fine line on these boards eh?

The OP just wanted to spare a thought for those who have laid down their lives in what they believed was the defence of freedom.

So what?

You may not agree that we need to constantly keep remembering these things and I agree with you on that .

But where we disagree is what we believe to be acceptable in allowing others to view these things in the way that they do , not in the way we want them to.

Stu can and should have the right to remember all the battles and fallen heroes that he wants without any of us telling him to “let it go”

[Daggers]

He should recognise that it is due to the fallen heroes that people can say "let it go" and celebrate the fact.

[Zingari]

He should recognise that it is due to the fallen heroes that people can say "let it go" and celebrate the fact.

and those that say "let it go" should do the same and we'll all be fine and dandy

[sphericalfox]

The OP just wanted to spare a thought for those who have laid down their lives in what they believed was the defence of freedom.

So what?

You may not agree that we need to constantly keep remembering these things and I agree with you on that .

But where we disagree is what we believe to be acceptable in allowing others to view these things in the way that they do , not in the way we want them to.

Stu can and should have the right to remember all the battles and fallen heroes that he wants without any of us telling him to “let it go”

I think 'let it go' was anything but aggressive, and the irony of those three words subsequently led lcfcstu to accuse everyone under the sun, perhaps all those who didn't post on the thread of being 'unbritish' for not following his lead.

As with right, I think there have been some excellent posts highlighting the folly of trying to get a day of history that has significance but not remembrance tied to it. We'd have many more bank holidays for all the Waterloo's and Battle of Isandlwana's of the past.

It does pose the question whether we should be celebrating the engagement of war, or the cease of said war. Do you only celebrate the engagement of war if you win at the end, or do you silently forget that one and move on to a more victorious recollection?

[Guest Bilo]

I always spare a thought for the men who fought for this country in WWII on dates like D-Day and VE Day but consider it a moment of private reflection. I certainly wouldn't slate anyone who chooses not to remember because, as Daggers has said, we have the freedom that men my age and younger fought and died for 68 years ago to do so.

[Nick]

The OP just wanted to spare a thought for those who have laid down their lives in what they believed was the defence of freedom.

So what?

You may not agree that we need to constantly keep remembering these things and I agree with you on that .

But where we disagree is what we believe to be acceptable in allowing others to view these things in the way that they do , not in the way we want them to.

Stu can and should have the right to remember all the battles and fallen heroes that he wants without any of us telling him to “let it go”

And by the same token I have the right to my opinion.

I get bored of the obsessive 'hard-on-for-war' threads and posts by Stu.

We'll all fight for Stu's right to think anything he likes but when he posts the same stuff on a public forum time and time again and people think it's a tad obsessive - Don't be surprised when people comment.

If you want a Private Ceremony of Remembrance without outside comment - do it in your living room, don't post it on a public football forum.

If you don't want balance of any kind - just go down your local British Legion for the day.

I think Ultra behaviour (no pun intended) is twatish, I think the Baby Squad are bellends, I detest racism, I get quite ****ed off with the views around criminal justice on these boards........... So guess what?

I DON"T START THREADS ABOUT THOSE SUBJECTS

[Rincewind]

We should also remember the day Oliver Cromwell freed us from a wicked king. Or the day the Romans first stepped on these shores and taught the natives how to build roads.

[Nick]

We should also remember the day Oliver Cromwell freed us from a wicked king. Or the day the Romans first stepped on these shores and taught the natives how to build roads.

Let it go, Ken. Let it go.

[stez]

I like to celebrate the day brutus of troy, king brutus I came to britain and quashed the vicious giants. And the fallen on the 11th of the 11th

[brockmyster]

Delete

[brockmyster]

The whole reason this particular war is remembered more than the Romans coming etc is down to the fact that alot of people have family members who fought and so they remember and have been told stories of them, this is obviously going to have more of an effect on the population than something that happened 2000 year ago.

And whoever said it earlier is right, just sharks in the water, the bloke has an opinion and has a right to do so but because you don't agree you mock and wind him up, you say he's obsessive well I think u may have the same problem seeing as you've managed to talk about him for so long.

Always the same on this forum if you have an opinion that someone doesn't agree with then you will get slated

[Nick]

[sphericalfox]

The whole reason this particular war is remembered more than the Romans coming etc is down to the fact that alot of people have family members who fought and so they remember and have been told stories of them, this is obviously going to have more of an effect on the population than something that happened 2000 year ago.

And whoever said it earlier is right, just sharks in the water, the bloke has an opinion and has a right to do so but because you don't agree you mock and wind him up, you say he's obsessive well I think u may have the same problem seeing as you've managed to talk about him for so long.

Always the same on this forum if you have an opinion that someone doesn't agree with then you will get slated

I think a.) you misunderstand what a forum is for b.) Nobody is slating anyone. If you post something slating others for not following your train of thought, be prepared to have you argument critiqued. It's about that simple really.

[davieG]

Always the same on this forum if you have an opinion that someone doesn't agree with then you will get slated

Any Forum, this forum is not unique in terms of people disagreeing.

There's talk of Mutiny on Bentley's at the moment over people having and expressing different opinions it's the nature of the beast that is Online forums.