Doctors

[Parafox]

Doctors, like other members of the NHS are not striking for more pay or increased pensions, they are aggrieved because they were told by THIS government that their pension schemes, highly rewarding or not, would not be amended.

Anyone, in whatever walk of life, who has a pension, of whatever type or however it's paid for, will make plans based on the expectations of the money they will retire on.

I myself have had detrimental changes to my NHS pension (I'm not a doctor) which means I get a reduced amount and have to pay more. I am within 10 years of retiring and now, I have to re-think my plans for that time.

You would feel pretty pissed off if you expected a set amount to live out your years on and made plans according to those figures to then be told, actually we're not giving you that sum of money, it's going to be less. Fu*k your retirement plans. That's why the Dr's are hacked off.

I bet MP's (of all parties) don't have this to concern them.

[Bryn]

First of all I want to say well done to all the doctors who will not be striking tomorrow, you obviously have a sense of decency and morality.

But to those who will be striking tomorrow, you are a disgrace.

The average doctor's yearly wage is around £120'000. They retire at 60, and recieve £49'000 a year from their pensions, and a £147'000 lump sum. And they are striking because they don't feel that this is too much. What planet are they on?!

Yes, doctors do have to attend University for many years to be qualified. But don't forget that the people who are striking now over pensions recieved University education when it was FREE, so no massive debts to justify massive pay. Yes there are 5-10 years when they are studying and therefore aren't earning, but 3 or 4 years on over 100k a year more than makes up for it. Then they have many more years to get rich.

I'm not saying that doctors don't deserve generous pay, they certainly do. But £120'000 a year followed by some of the most generous pensions in the entire WORLD is ridiculous.

Do they not realise that we are in a recession, and how many public and private sector workers are being made redundant, let alone having pension cuts? Do they not realise that we have an ageing population whose pensions are massively unsustainable? Do they not realise the inconvenience they will be causing to patients?

My generation and younger are going to be paying taxes on our 20k average a year to sustain their 49k a year pensions. But of course many do not care about that, as long as they are lining their old overpaid pockets.

Greedy cvnts.

/rant.

Doctors put their mental and physical health at risk for their whole lives and expect to be looked after during their careers and afterwards. Seems fair enough to me. People in other lines of work are underpaid, for sure, doesn't mean doctors are overpaid. By the way, they're not asking for more money, they're asking for the agreement they made with the Government to be honoured. It's the first time they've taken action for 40 years.

Doctors are pretty well paid so it is hard to have too much sympathy for them. What i dislike is that medical degrees are always oversubscribed so that many people are unable to even try to pursue a career in medicine, but as a result of the nhs being short on doctors alot of foreign doctors get brought in that didnt have the same standard of education.

Britain produces enough doctors. Last year, there were more graduating foundation doctors than there were foundation posts for the first time. The problem, like in many other similar situations, is that it is difficult to attract doctors to rural areas, leaving gaps to be filled. There are many areas of the country which are oversubscribed.Those who come are often European doctors who cannot be blocked by EU law. The issue here is to make sure that those who do come and apply for jobs are up to standard, which is something that is being worked on. Non-EU doctors would have to prove that they would benefit society simply by being here before being allowed to enter the country, same as anything else.

Doctors should not be doctors for the money and the nice pension, it is a calling and as some have a said on here a very difficult one and not one I could do.

As a pension it is pretty astronomical, but I understand the right to protest when the government is going back on a promise, I don't know the ins and outs of the doctors pension scheme, but I would welcome a review of it, whereby doctors still have the option of reaching that level of state pension, but it has to be earned and is not a right, based on the kind of doctor they are and how much time they spend on emergency call outs etc. There is a huge difference between a GP (the cushiest of all doctor jobs) and working in A&E.

Plenty of misconceptions here.

First of all, the idea that being a doctor is a calling is bullshit. Doctors are human beings who have the right to make a living for themselves using the skillset that they have been given, just like anyone else. I chose to become a doctor for many reasons, including the fact that I will be making a difference to people's lives, and also including the fact that it will allow me a comfortable lifestyle. Why that desire to be comfortable, to have a nice home and to provide for my future family, is more wrong for a doctor than anyone else, bewilders me. It also has other attractions - the ability to work in a team, the ability to communicate with patients, the fact that I will be continually learning, the fact that it suited my A levels and interests, the potential to travel, and so on. Why on earth should I have had to watch a doctor save a life when I was 5, or receive some supernatural imagery in my head, to want to follow this path without being judged?

GPs work damn hard, I don't know where the **** this idea that they don't comes from. They start early, often don't get a lunch break as they fly around on home visits and chasing up loose ends, and often take their work home with them or work at weekends. Furthermore, they are businessmen, who must attract "trade", meet regulatory standards and administrate just as any other businessman would.

Finally, what more do they have to do to earn their pensions? They pay a huge proportion of their salary in tax, they pay into their pension funds, and they must meet the requirements of their job to ever get to their pensions. They constantly face the threat of litigation, burnout, disciplinary action, and all the other risks, in their day to day job. Even consultants are usually in for a 12 hr shift. Why should they have to jump through hoops just to be granted what they signed up for, paid for, worked for, and agreed with the Government? Why should they pay more to earn less than was agreed? Why should they stand idly by when the Government reneges on its commitments? This is a democratic society, and doctors already do enough for the public without waiving their democratic rights.

[Captain...]

Plenty of misconceptions here.

First of all, the idea that being a doctor is a calling is bullshit. Doctors are human beings who have the right to make a living for themselves using the skillset that they have been given, just like anyone else. I chose to become a doctor for many reasons, including the fact that I will be making a difference to people's lives, and also including the fact that it will allow me a comfortable lifestyle. Why that desire to be comfortable, to have a nice home and to provide for my future family, is more wrong for a doctor than anyone else, bewilders me. It also has other attractions - the ability to work in a team, the ability to communicate with patients, the fact that I will be continually learning, the fact that it suited my A levels and interests, the potential to travel, and so on. Why on earth should I have had to watch a doctor save a life when I was 5, or receive some supernatural imagery in my head, to want to follow this path without being judged?

GPs work damn hard, I don't know where the **** this idea that they don't comes from. They start early, often don't get a lunch break as they fly around on home visits and chasing up loose ends, and often take their work home with them or work at weekends. Furthermore, they are businessmen, who must attract "trade", meet regulatory standards and administrate just as any other businessman would.

Finally, what more do they have to do to earn their pensions? They pay a huge proportion of their salary in tax, they pay into their pension funds, and they must meet the requirements of their job to ever get to their pensions. They constantly face the threat of litigation, burnout, disciplinary action, and all the other risks, in their day to day job. Even consultants are usually in for a 12 hr shift. Why should they have to jump through hoops just to be granted what they signed up for, paid for, worked for, and agreed with the Government? Why should they pay more to earn less than was agreed? Why should they stand idly by when the Government reneges on its commitments? This is a democratic society, and doctors already do enough for the public without waiving their democratic rights.

Maybe I misused the word calling, but you have to be a certain type of person to be a Doctor, there are much easier ways for intelligent hard working people to earn more money than doctors get without putting up with all the shit doctors put up with, but they are generously compensated for it and rightly so, but it requires a certain mindset and certain desire to help people that not all people have.

Maybe my view on English doctors is clouded by having had a Spanish ex girlfriend who is a doctor and worked 24 hour shifts in A&E and is sometimes in the hospital for 36 hours without being able to leave whilst doing her residency. I am not sure what the training process is like in the UK, but I don't think it is that bad. Now she is in her Speciality and is doing mainly lab work (haematology) she is doing nothing like the work of the surgeons and trauma teams. But in Spain GP is the cushiest because you don't have to work 24 hour shifts.

I would say the same is true of GPs in the UK, what you have described is fairly similar to most successful business men, especially in sales, who probably get paid a similar amount to doctors and more, especially when you include bonuses. By no means was I suggesting being a GP is easy, but compare it to A&E and surgery it is an easier job, in my opinion.

I also understand the frustration at being told they were not going to touch your pensions and have changed their mind on it, (they do that quite often) but maybe a review would be a good idea to see whether savings could be made, and see whether Doctors do actually need a pension that big, I am pretty sure most doctors put away a lot of money for themselves for retirement and make sound investments and probably don't need such a large pension, and there is no benefit in paying out a large pension just to sit in a bank account and not be spent.

[acooling08]

How many nurses could be employed with all that pension money?

[sphericalfox]

How many nurses could be employed with all that pension money?

You truly haven't got a clue have you!

[acooling08]

You truly haven't got a clue have you!

FFS Spherical, I'm more than happy to listen to your counter argument if you just told me what it is and stop just slagging me off.

[sphericalfox]

FFS Spherical, I'm more than happy to listen to your counter argument if you just told me what it is and stop just slagging me off.

You can't just keep making ridiculous statements and not expect to be poked.

If you based some of your arguments having some experience of working within the NHS or perhaps even having relatives working in the system. Yet you call all doctors who are not striking to be moral, and then implying the rest on the pickets as not.

You state that the a doctor's yearly wage to be about 120k. Where'd you pluck this number from? Do enlighten us all.

Please show me where there is a lack of nurses in the system that these 'greedy cvnts' are stealing from the pot of money from? Pension schemes do not directly affect the money for the provision of medical staff by the goevernment. It doesn't work that way.

[MooseBreath]

Would love to see the numbers that Labour used when they signed off the pension agreement in 2008. It has been clear for well over a decade that these final salary pensions schemes are an absolute beast. You're talking a liability of ~£70k per doctor per year until they die, which will average over 20 years. That's millions of pounds for every single doctor. It's complete madness, and obviously has to be stopped.

I don't particularly like the idea of the government meddling with previously agreed pensions, but it's hard to have much sympathy for doctors who are already very well paid and are basically striking because they will only be very rich in retirement, rather than extremely rich. Plus if you're a doctor you've probably got reasonable control of your finances and should really have plenty of assets on which you can rely. This might mean you can only go on five cruises per year rather than six. Maybe you'll only be able to spend eight weeks on the algarve instead of nine. Boo-****ing-hoo.

Meanwhile, those of us who haven't, and won't ever be lucky enough to ride the insane public sector pension gravy train, are having to face up to the realistic prospect of no state pension whatsoever. We willl have to rely on private pensions into which your averahe company contributes barely a penny. Run the numbers on that bitch of a predicament at your own risk. I would like all Doctors to be forced to run the numbers though, maybe once they have seen how utterly shit retirement prospects are for your average worker, something might twig about how the huge liability that they are fighting to protect is actually somewhat unfair on the rest of us who will then have that to pay for on top of everything else.

In summary, Labour should never made such a preposterous agreement, it's bad that the current government are now having to go back on that agreement, but Doctors are still very rich people so i'm sorry but, cry me a ****ing river.

[ADK]

I don't really mind doctors striking as it is their right to do so as much as anyone else. I just don't have much sympathy when they are so well paid.

[sphericalfox]

Jesus fooking wept, the 'they're richer than me - fook um' argument. A winner every time!

[acooling08]

You can't just keep making ridiculous statements and not expect to be poked.

If you based some of your arguments having some experience of working within the NHS or perhaps even having relatives working in the system. Yet you call all doctors who are not striking to be moral, and then implying the rest on the pickets as not.

You state that the a doctor's yearly wage to be about 120k. Where'd you pluck this number from? Do enlighten us all.

Please show me where there is a lack of nurses in the system that these 'greedy cvnts' are stealing from the pot of money from? Pension schemes do not directly affect the money for the provision of medical staff by the goevernment. It doesn't work that way.

I think Moosebreath can sum it up much better than I can.

£120k was the figure that was on the newspaper articles from a few days back, I expect them to exaggerate a little, so lets say the average doctors wage is actually between 100-120k, that's still a lot. But their wages aren't that outrageous, the pension lump sum and annual pay out is what astounds me.

I would think that on that wage, most doctors will be debt free, will have paid of their mortgages and will be comfortable after retirement. 20k a year pension with a 10k lump sum is surely enough to sustain them?

I'm not pretending to be an expert mate, but I know that the government is having to make deep cuts in the public sector, meaning many nurses will be made redundant. It may not be the same 'pot' so to speak, but the retired doctors are taking out much more money than they need to at the expense of us all.

[Bryn]

The average doctors salary is not close to £100k. If it is, chances are they are doing private work which the public pot does not pay for.

Some GPs are earning 6 figures. As I've said before, they are businessmen and their salaries only rise to this if their practice allows it; for example, if they run an on-site pharmacy which draws money in from customers.

[sphericalfox]

I think Moosebreath can sum it up much better than I can.

£120k was the figure that was on the newspaper articles from a few days back, I expect them to exaggerate a little, so lets say the average doctors wage is actually between 100-120k, that's still a lot. But their wages aren't that outrageous, the pension lump sum and annual pay out is what astounds me.

I would think that on that wage, most doctors will be debt free, will have paid of their mortgages and will be comfortable after retirement. 20k a year pension with a 10k lump sum is surely enough to sustain them?

I'm not pretending to be an expert mate, but I know that the government is having to make deep cuts in the public sector, meaning many nurses will be made redundant. It may not be the same 'pot' so to speak, but the retired doctors are taking out much more money than they need to at the expense of us all.

So when other NHS staff, including nurses went on strike, do you think they were doing this at the expense of their own jobs?

You've basically implied that all doctors who went on strike are morally corrupt, as they should take a drop in their pensions that were promised, because they earn high wages? Do you have a fathom of the responsibility that a doctor or GP deal with on a daily basis, and with the change in the NHS system and how it is managed how much more pressure will be laid upon them?

You admit to being no expert, yet you have no true knowledge of the matter other than what you've read in an article and made your mind up. Not like you mind.

[Craig]

The one day I need the ****ers.

[MooseBreath]

Jesus fooking wept, the 'they're richer than me - fook um' argument. A winner every time!

It's hardly "fook um'" though, is it. Their pensions are still going to be something that the rest of us will only ever be able to dream about.

You've basically implied that all doctors who went on strike are morally corrupt, as they should take a drop in their pensions that were promised, because they earn high wages? Do you have a fathom of the responsibility that a doctor or GP deal with on a daily basis, and with the change in the NHS system and how it is managed how much more pressure will be laid upon them?

Pressure of the job should be reflected in their salaries, not in their pensions. The problem with these kind of pensions is that with rapidly advancing life expectancies they are increasingly amounting to an effectively limitless liability which must then be paid for by taking yet more money away from an already embattled generation. It's very obvious that this system is unsustainable, and while it's regrettable that some ill-prepared doctors may now have to scale down their plans for retirement by a tiny amount, it still pales in comparison to the huge negative effect that having such a huge liability to pay for would have on everyone else, including you.

[sphericalfox]

It's hardly "fook um'" though, is it. Their pensions are still going to be something that the rest of us will only ever be able to dream about.

Pressure of the job should be reflected in their salaries, not in their pensions. The problem with these kind of pensions is that with rapidly advancing life expectancies they are increasingly amounting to an effectively limitless liability which must then be paid for by taking yet more money away from an already embattled generation. It's very obvious that this system is unsustainable, and while it's regrettable that some ill-prepared doctors may now have to scale down their plans for retirement by a tiny amount, it still pales in comparison to the huge negative effect that having such a huge liability to pay for would have on everyone else, including you.

Tell the OP and others by drawing attention to a made up number about average salaries has nothing to do with the fact that these professionals are taking action. Being bitter that a highly educated person with tremendous life/death responsibilities, and now the added pressures of managing the NHS budgets locally should in fact be paid handsomely for their labours.

I don't disagree that the perhaps the pension schemes over time have grown out of proportion in the public sector. But when an agreement is made right or wrong, and the current government backtracks on that agreement, for what isn't an increase, this cannot be construed as greedy, immoral or otherwise. It's a principal stand with which I agree with, which isn't based on emotive bullshit, and their rich fook em which numerous posters have indicated within this thread.

[flowwolf]

I suppose they were all students once so it makes sense.

[21st Century Fox]

I suppose they were all students once so it makes sense.

Let that one on your shoulder dive back in with his friends.

[AoWW]

Would love to see the numbers that Labour used when they signed off the pension agreement in 2008. It has been clear for well over a decade that these final salary pensions schemes are an absolute beast. You're talking a liability of ~£70k per doctor per year until they die, which will average over 20 years. That's millions of pounds for every single doctor. It's complete madness, and obviously has to be stopped.

I don't particularly like the idea of the government meddling with previously agreed pensions, but it's hard to have much sympathy for doctors who are already very well paid and are basically striking because they will only be very rich in retirement, rather than extremely rich. Plus if you're a doctor you've probably got reasonable control of your finances and should really have plenty of assets on which you can rely. This might mean you can only go on five cruises per year rather than six. Maybe you'll only be able to spend eight weeks on the algarve instead of nine. Boo-****ing-hoo.

Meanwhile, those of us who haven't, and won't ever be lucky enough to ride the insane public sector pension gravy train, are having to face up to the realistic prospect of no state pension whatsoever. We willl have to rely on private pensions into which your averahe company contributes barely a penny. Run the numbers on that bitch of a predicament at your own risk. I would like all Doctors to be forced to run the numbers though, maybe once they have seen how utterly shit retirement prospects are for your average worker, something might twig about how the huge liability that they are fighting to protect is actually somewhat unfair on the rest of us who will then have that to pay for on top of everything else.

In summary, Labour should never made such a preposterous agreement, it's bad that the current government are now having to go back on that agreement, but Doctors are still very rich people so i'm sorry but, cry me a ****ing river.

You're obviously envious of the rewards and lifestyle... why didn't you train to be a doctor?

[MooseBreath]

You're obviously envious of the rewards and lifestyle... why didn't you train to be a doctor?

Are you happy that income tax is taken as a percentage of earnings or would you prefer everybody paid the same flat fee regardless of income?

[acooling08]

I suppose they were all students once so it makes sense.

The older doctors who were striking attended Uni when it was free. Plus who can't afford 10k in student debt when you are on 100k a year?

[AoWW]

Are you happy that income tax is taken as a percentage of earnings or would you prefer everybody paid the same flat fee regardless of income?

Did someone delete your reply to my question?

[MooseBreath]

Did someone delete your reply to my question?

The implication in your question is pretty obvious. I've not said anywhere in this thread that doctors don't deserve a high salary and the associated lifestyle benefits.

[ADK]

People are just arguing with the usual hyperbole, nobody has made a decent arguement as to why doctors should get pensions worth millions.

[Captain...]

People are just arguing with the usual hyperbole, nobody has made a decent arguement as to why doctors should get pensions worth millions.

...and nobody has made an argument as to why they shouldn't either.

I would welcome a review of it, but the problem is this government promised it wouldn't and changed its mind, again, and deserved or not if they have work expecting that pension and don't get it then it is more or less theft.

No more u-turns