Animal rights

[ozleicester]

The remains of Neanderthal and modern humans both show evidence of butchery after death. This could be because the flesh was stripped after death for ritual purposes or it could be because the flesh was eaten. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that prehistoric humans (Neanderthal and Moderns) hunted each other for food.

While no-one can deny that humans are designed to eat meat and maybe better off for eating meat, everyone must agree that we have moved on a little since we scraped our dead of flesh with flint tools.

Therefore, if our technology has moved on to such a degree, surely our morals and ethics should have moved on too. As long as people eat meat, animals will have to be frightened, suffer and be in pain to achieve this aim. (Lab grown meat is a reality but as things stand a single burger of lab meat costs £100 000) I think even the most staunch meat-eater would be horrified to see what goes on in most abattoirs in this country. Surely we have a responsibility to our fellow creatures to minimise fear, suffering and pain in the production of meat?

I sometimes wonder whether future generations will look at the way we currently treat animals in the same way we look at our relatively recent ancestors for the way they treated fellow humans.

Nice post!

I do take some issue with the concept that we are "designed" to eat meat In my opinion, we are capable of eating it, but its not our basic "design" (how i hate the fact that the religious looneys have bastardised that word..or at least its understanding)

In my opinion, future generations will look back at this time in much the same way (most of) our generation look at the times of... slavery.... womens rights ..gay rights...etc.

ie... find it incredible that apparently intelligent people could think/act that way.

[OzFox]

The future of hunting

[ozleicester]

Education time.... see if you can find 40 mins to watch this (4 corners is kind of our version of Panorama?) and comment, oh and if we can avoid the racist stuff and focus on the fact that if we didnt ship animal overseas in such appalling conditions in the first place, we wouldnt have to worry about what others did to them.

Shameful!

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/11/02/3623727.htm

[OzFox]

Education time.... see if you can find 40 mins to watch this (4 corners is kind of our version of Panorama?) and comment, oh and if we can avoid the racist stuff and focus on the fact that if we didnt ship animal overseas in such appalling conditions in the first place, we wouldnt have to worry about what others did to them.

Shameful!

http://www.abc.net.a.../02/3623727.htm

Just proves that a lot of people aren't interested in watching animal cruelty stories.....4Cs has been rating 900,000-1 million, this programme got 515,000

Shame because it was pretty powerful stuff

[OzFox]

India textbook says meat-eaters lie and commit sex crimes.

"They easily cheat, tell lies, forget promises, they are dishonest and tell bad words, steal, fight and turn to violence and commit sex crimes," it says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20354669

Well that settles it then.

[I am Rod Hull]

India textbook says meat-eaters lie and commit sex crimes.

"They easily cheat, tell lies, forget promises, they are dishonest and tell bad words, steal, fight and turn to violence and commit sex crimes," it says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...-india-20354669

Well that settles it then.

"The Arabs who helped in constructing the Suez Canal lived on wheat and dates and were superior to the beef-fed Englishmen engaged in the same work."

[ozleicester]

Im sorry...but the irony of WTF - BBQ being the poster that takes this to 50 pages...amuses me

[ozleicester]

[Guest MattP]

I'm a huge greyhound racing fan but I do actually agree with a part of that.

A 400m course would be fine if it was a straight, the first bend is quite often horrific and even with the way we tend to put the stayers on the outside now I've seen some terrible collisions over the years.

The dogs absolutely love going out onto the track, they get all excited and start wagging their tails everywhere, I adopted a racing greyhound about 10 years ago, more effort needs going into that as well. Beautiful creatures.

I'd happily support a move to sprints or even bring the handicap races in, in 15 years of watching racing I've never seen a dog injured in a handicap.

[Guest MattP]

Here's a good read exposing a lot of the myths about Greyhound Racing as well for anyone reading.

http://www.thedogs.c...boutRacing.aspx

MYTH: Greyhounds must be starved to be so thin

Greyhounds are genetically slender animals. They are built for speed and agility, as are other dogs such as whippets and lurchers. As with most human athletes, greyhounds do not carry excess weight but have plenty of muscle and are fit and healthy. They are fed carefully balanced, nutritious diets. When a greyhound retires from racing and enters the home environment he or she will lose some muscle and may put on a small amount of weight as his or her exercise is reduced.

MYTH: Greyhounds are drugged to make them run faster

As with all sports, human or other, the use of drugs to enhance performance is wrong. The Greyhound Board of Great Britain takes a very serious view about this. It is against the rules for greyhounds to race if they contain any substance that may affect their performance. Trainers who use drugs face very severe penalties, including lifetime bans and the loss of their livelihood. They may also risk prosecution under the Gambling or Animal Welfare Acts. The sport’s regulatory bodies carry out regular random drug testing and only approximately 0.2% of the ten thousand samples return positive each year.

MYTH: Greyhounds are forced to race

Greyhounds are bred to race and love to run around in paddocks and fields from a very young age. Away from a track, if you visit a trainer’s kennels you will often see greyhounds enjoying running around with their kennel mates.

MYTH: Live rabbits are used to train greyhounds

The use of live rabbits to train greyhounds is both against the sport’s rules and illegal. Trainers caught doing this would face prosecution and very stiff penalties.

MYTH: Greyhounds are locked in kennels with no human contact

Greyhounds are a friendly breed that thrives on human company. From a very early age greyhounds are used to plenty of human contact, particularly during exercising, feeding, grooming and racing. Additionally, many owners like to visit the kennels where their greyhounds are trained and walk them at weekends. Greyhounds are naturally friendly and affectionate.

All trainers have their kennels rigorously inspected, including by a vet. Greyhounds are regularly exercised and let out of their kennels many times throughout the day, probably more often than the average household pet. Greyhounds, like all sight hounds (and many other breeds) are generally couch potatoes, they enjoy their exercise but are very happy to sleep in dry, warm kennels when not outside.

MYTH: Greyhounds are forced to race with injuries

A veterinary surgeon is present at all tracks when racing takes place. All greyhounds are inspected by a vet before racing to ensure they are fit to race.

MYTH: Greyhounds make bad pets

Greyhounds make fantastic pets for people and households of all ages. Thousands of greyhounds are adopted as pets each year. The majority can live happily with cats and other animals. However, as with every breed, not every individual greyhound has the right temperament to be a house-dog.

[ozleicester]

Horse racing... BAN THE WHIP! ... Horses will still win races.

If you can find 20 mins to watch an extremely dry..but extrememly interesting Sydney University Study ...http://www.abc.net.a.../21/3507350.htm

a recent study showed 75% of whip strikes broke the agreed rules and could be considered animal abuse

Imagine if you saw someone beating a kittten or a dog the way we do horses...i imagine you would be outraged

RSPCA advert

oh and.... Black Caviar... is NEVER WHIPPED... this incredible creature.. one of the best of all time.. doesnt get beaten... and yet is still winning?

[ozleicester]

Here's a good read exposing a lot of the myths about Greyhound Racing as well for anyone reading.

http://www.thedogs.c...boutRacing.aspx

More than 12,000 are killed in the UK evry year... all of the above is well and good...supporting greyhound racing your are supporting the killing of 12000 innocent creatures.

http://www.rdpa.org.uk/cruelty.html

[Zingari]

Just watched an interesting piece on TV about employing dogs to sniff out drugs /semtex etc

Should we be forcing dogs ( or any other animals) to do this or any other type of work ?

[Oxfordfox83]

Just watched an interesting piece on TV about employing dogs to sniff out drugs /semtex etc

Should we be forcing dogs ( or any other animals) to do this or any other type of work ?

Oh for god's sake.

Health and safety gone mad, this time in the canine world. If the existence of working and domesticated animals offends everyone so much, the only solution is annihilation of any human bred or domesticated creature. Unless you're going to pull the trigger yourself, keep it shut.

[Zingari]

Oh for god's sake.

Health and safety gone mad, this time in the canine world. If the existence of working and domesticated animals offends everyone so much, the only solution is annihilation of any human bred or domesticated creature. Unless you're going to pull the trigger yourself, keep it shut.

i was only asking the question

oz has stated that horse racing is morally wrong because they don't choose to do it and i'm just asking him why this would be any different .

please try to keep up

[purpleronnie]

i was only asking the question

oz has stated that horse racing is morally wrong because they don't choose to do it and i'm just asking him why this would be any different .

please try to keep up

I guess it depends on the ratio of deaths per dog to per horse.

[Zingari]

I guess it depends on the ratio of deaths per dog to per horse.

But oz has stressed previously that the horses (or any other animals) should not be employed or bred for our own selfish benefits regardless of any fatalities. eg greyhound racing , workhorses, oxen etc

[Babylon]

i was only asking the question

oz has stated that horse racing is morally wrong because they don't choose to do it and i'm just asking him why this would be any different .

please try to keep up

They didn't choose to do it? That presumes animals understand the concept of choice. Thus meaning they could always stand still and not run. A race horse who doesn't run, would not be a race horse for long.

[Oxfordfox83]

i was only asking the question

oz has stated that horse racing is morally wrong because they don't choose to do it and i'm just asking him why this would be any different .

please try to keep up

Sorry, reading the Derby forum all morning and used up all my laughs...

[Guest MattP]

Horse racing... BAN THE WHIP! ... Horses will still win races.

If you can find 20 mins to watch an extremely dry..but extrememly interesting Sydney University Study ...http://www.abc.net.a.../21/3507350.htm

a recent study showed 75% of whip strikes broke the agreed rules and could be considered animal abuse

Imagine if you saw someone beating a kittten or a dog the way we do horses...i imagine you would be outraged

RSPCA advert

oh and.... Black Caviar... is NEVER WHIPPED... this incredible creature.. one of the best of all time.. doesnt get beaten... and yet is still winning?

I'm not sure if you can actually get anymore condescending.

Some horses need the whip, what about great champions like Ortensia and Hay List from Australia. They needed a bit of encouragement. What about a couple of the great stayers like Fame and Glory and Yeats? Often needed a niggle.

To compare every horse to Black Caviar is fcuking ridiculous, she was a freak of nature, your shouting is wrong mind, Luke Nolan gave her two lashes at Ascot when she came over here and hung on by a nose to win.

Flat racing is mostly shit anyway, it's all about the jumps here. Which gives me a chance to show the finest performance of all time, Kauto Star, legend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh0BKgmx0VM

[ozleicester]

I'm not sure if you can actually get anymore condescending.

Some horses need the whip, what about great champions like Ortensia and Hay List from Australia. They needed a bit of encouragement. What about a couple of the great stayers like Fame and Glory and Yeats? Often needed a niggle.

To compare every horse to Black Caviar is fcuking ridiculous, she was a freak of nature, your shouting is wrong mind, Luke Nolan gave her two lashes at Ascot when she came over here and hung on by a nose to win.

Flat racing is mostly shit anyway, it's all about the jumps here. Which gives me a chance to show the finest performance of all time, Kauto Star, legend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh0BKgmx0VM

Im not sure what you found so condesending, but hey if thats how you feel your entitled to feel whatever you like.

"some horses need the whip"... you are saying, that animal abuse is ok.... oh, and its not a niggle, it is being beaten and abused.

I wasnt comparing other horses to BC... just saying if the best doesnt need to be beaten... neither do any others. if we stop whipping on all of them.... then no-one loses and animal abuse is (even if its only minimally) reduced.

[ozleicester]

Meatless Monday - get on board folks... its going to save the planet?

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/diet-and-fitness/with-the-world-at-steak-eat-more-veggies-20121124-29zzs.html

With the world at steak, eat more veggies

Date

November 25, 2012

Proud carnivores Sam Neill and Sam Kekovich look away, a campaign to encourage Australians to eat less meat has been launched.

The initiative called Meat Free Monday is being fronted by the nutritionist Rosemary Stanton and the TV chef Janella Purcell and has received the backing of the entrepreneur Sir Richard Branson.

According to a study by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, fewer than one in 10 Australians aged 12 or over eat sufficient serves of vegetables. Nutritionists said changing the balance to eating more plant-based foods and less meat provided a much healthier diet.

Those who have already taken the Meat Free Monday pledge include the cook Maggie Beer, the former tennis champion Pat Cash, the TV chef Simon Bryant and Sir Richard.

"I love eating meat, but I love our planet even more, so I will join this campaign and stop eating meat at least one day a week," Sir Richard said.

A study published in The Lancet recommended that meat consumption should be limited to 90 grams per day. The National Nutrition Survey indicated that many Australians were consuming almost double that amount: on average, men ate 200 grams a day and woman 116 grams.

Dr Stanton said reducing the amount of meat consumed could greatly improve a person's well-being.

"There are strong health benefits to participating in Meat Free Mondays. Eating more plant food is good for us and health authorities around the world recommend against eating high levels of meat," she said.

"Dietary guidelines also recommend much smaller portions of meat than you'd find at a typical Aussie barbecue.

"By going meat free on Mondays, people can help to reduce their risk of chronic preventable conditions such as colorectal cancer and cardiovascular disease."

The campaign was launched by the environmentalist Jon Dee's Do Something! movement and the Fry's Family Foundation.

Mr Dee said the environmental benefits of eating less meat were clear, with the water needs of livestock far higher than those of vegetables or grains.

"People are not aware that producing one kilogram of beef can take thousands of litres of water," he said.

"By reducing our meat consumption we can reduce our environmental impact. According to the Department of Climate Change and Energy Efficiency, our livestock industries are responsible for around 10 per cent of Australia’s total greenhouse emissions."

The campaign runs in more than 20 countries, including the US, Britain, Canada, Japan, Brazil, France and Spain.

Meat Free Mondays Australia has been launched by the not-for-profit Do Something! charity and the newly launched Fry's Family Foundation (the Fry's family runs the Meat Free Mondays campaign in South Africa).

The University of Technology Sydney’s Institute for Sustainable Futures is providing research support for the campaign.

[Guest MattP]

Im not sure what you found so condesending, but hey if thats how you feel your entitled to feel whatever you like.

"some horses need the whip"... you are saying, that animal abuse is ok.... oh, and its not a niggle, it is being beaten and abused.

I wasnt comparing other horses to BC... just saying if the best doesnt need to be beaten... neither do any others. if we stop whipping on all of them.... then no-one loses and animal abuse is (even if its only minimally) reduced.

BC isn't the best, best sprinter yes but Frankel and Circus Des Aigles are both higher rated horses and both need the whip every now and then to get to their best.

I'm saying a slap on the horses shoulder with a foam coated whip is fine. I don't regard that as animal abuse, a lot of horses need it as s steering tool, could see more carnage on the track without it.

To celebrate Gay Monday I'm going to have twice as much bacon and sausage as usual.

[ozleicester]

BC isn't the best, best sprinter yes but Frankel and Circus Des Aigles are both higher rated horses and both need the whip every now and then to get to their best.

I'm saying a slap on the horses shoulder with a foam coated whip is fine. I don't regard that as animal abuse, a lot of horses need it as s steering tool, could see more carnage on the track without it.

To celebrate Gay Monday I'm going to have twice as much bacon and sausage as usual.

Clearly you havent watched the university study http://www.abc.net.a.../21/3507350.htm

This shows that 70% of whip strikes arent in the agreed "acceptable" area in fact they are most often on the stomach and risk injuring the horse.

The "whipping is used as a steeering tool" story is also shown to be false! The only reason the whip is used, is to beat an animal and abuse it to run faster.

If both Circus and Frankel werent whipped.... they would still be champions.. just champions with out being beaten?

"Gay Monday".. i expected better... not much better, but better.... this puts you on an equal level to moosebreath - you must be so proud.

[Guest MattP]

Clearly you havent watched the university study http://www.abc.net.a.../21/3507350.htm

This shows that 70% of whip strikes arent in the agreed "acceptable" area in fact they are most often on the stomach and risk injuring the horse.

The "whipping is used as a steeering tool" story is also shown to be false! The only reason the whip is used, is to beat an animal and abuse it to run faster.

If both Circus and Frankel werent whipped.... they would still be champions.. just champions with out being beaten?

"Gay Monday".. i expected better... not much better, but better.... this puts you on an equal level to moosebreath - you must be so proud.

Well this thread is a pisstake, no really is taking it seriously.

If your jockeys can't use the whip properly that's not my problem. Here we have rules in place, you can't strike more than 6 times in a race and more than 5 in the FF.

Cirrus needed a whip all the time,Frankel stepped up from 6f to 1m2, you arent going to do that without some 'encouragement'.

I've never seen a horse whipped on the stomach.