Animal rights

[Kitchandro]

You mean like how we killed/enslaved black people because we had guns and they didn't

I'm not saying we shouldn't eat animals, but I don't buy the "can't defend itself so has no rights" argument.

They're also not the same species and aren't capable of reason.

[ozleicester]

Animals don't have rights - they're animals.

That's no excuse to be excessively cruel to them, though.

Many of them taste nice and are useful for clothing. Also, by experimentation and scientific observation, we can learn many things to benefit humankind.

Speciesism is the only -ism I'll admit to.

Pleased that you acknowledge it is speciesism.

They may taste nice and provide clothing... but they dont need to, we can get all the taste and clothing we need, without taking lives.

Still interested how Mr Oz the animal rights rights activist is going to justify the starvation of millions of domestic animals. Curiously he hasn't answered this one yet. Even dried foods main ingredient is ground down meat and bone.

I have answered this question... at least twice in fact, but no worries, ill answer again... As i have stated time and time (and time) again, i am not suggesting an immediate end to the abuse of animals (much as i would like it)... i am suggesting an intelligent and evolving society will eventually become veggie..and we will stop keeping animals for our pleasure, the end of pets will avoid any need for starvation.

We can kill and eat animals, and that's ok , but if an animal kills a human for food, it is shot dead!

What a fair world we humans have made for ourselves!

too true...Worse still we wander into the sea, dress up like a seal and look just like a sharks favourite food.. then when one decides to have a nibble... we send out ships full of macho rednecks to hunt and kill anything with teeth.

Do you reckon in 250 years, animals with have the same rights as us and we will all be vegetarian?

Seems unlikely, but ask 50 years ago if same-sex marriage was going to be allowed in churches, or ask a few centuries back if blacks would have equal rights...

I think it will happen.

that is pretty close to how i see the future.

We can kill and eat animals because they aren't our equals and there's nothing they can do about it.

If they were clever enough to learn how to use firearms and get organised maybe they'd be calling the shots, so to speak.

watch out if you are disabled, mentally challenged etc

Pretty good soundbite about ethics in here...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20727158

damn cant get this in Oz

[ozleicester]

They're also not the same species and aren't capable of reason.

Again... if you are mentally challenged or incapable of reason and thought.. WATCH OUT

[Carl the Llama]

They're also not the same species and aren't capable of reason.

Yeah man, all that work we did evolving and being born human - they should've thought of that the lazy bar stewards.

[Manwell Pablo]

Again... if you are mentally challenged or incapable of reason and thought.. WATCH OUT

Pleased that you acknowledge it is speciesism.

They may taste nice and provide clothing... but they dont need to, we can get all the taste and clothing we need, without taking lives.

I have answered this question... at least twice in fact, but no worries, ill answer again... As i have stated time and time (and time) again, i am not suggesting an immediate end to the abuse of animals (much as i would like it)... i am suggesting an intelligent and evolving society will eventually become veggie..and we will stop keeping animals for our pleasure, the end of pets will avoid any need for starvation.

too true...Worse still we wander into the sea, dress up like a seal and look just like a sharks favourite food.. then when one decides to have a nibble... we send out ships full of macho rednecks to hunt and kill anything with teeth.

that is pretty close to how i see the future.

watch out if you are disabled, mentally challenged etc

damn cant get this in Oz

Erm your not answering the question, domestic animals rely on us, whether it be immediate or pro longed over generations all domesticated animals reliant on processed meat will die the moment we stop producing it whether we still keep them pets or set them free in the wild they will starve they are incapable of surviving on their own.

You also seem to grossly misunderstand evolution, we don't evolve to help other specie, we evolve, and other species evolve, to increase their likely hood of survival and move up the food chain, what you are suggesting would be the opposite and could cause situations were animals could take human lives or injure people due to a lack of control over them. I also don't think you quite understand the amount of things animal extracts actually go into. The disease flu kills more people worldwide than any other disease and we didn't have battery hens we wouldn't be able to produce the flu vaccine, hundreds of thousands would die, in fact probably millions. One example of hundreds I could give.

What your suggesting prolonged or immediate will cause economic and health problems for the entire world, your views are stupid, not thought through properly and extremist and thankfully they will never ever happen. Your views are actually as dangerous as any extreme right wing ones

[Trav Le Bleu]

Erm your not answering the question, domestic animals rely on us, whether it be immediate or pro longed over generations all domesticated animals reliant on processed meat will die the moment we stop producing it whether we still keep them pets or set them free in the wild they will starve they are incapable of surviving on their own.

That so many animal rightists don't realise this baffles me.

[Carl the Llama]

To be fair I reckon cows would get by fine in that outlandish scenario - not like they have any natural predators. In this country anyway.

I am pro meat and the ethical farming of it btw.

[ozleicester]

Erm your not answering the question, domestic animals rely on us, whether it be immediate or pro longed over generations all domesticated animals reliant on processed meat will die the moment we stop producing it whether we still keep them pets or set them free in the wild they will starve they are incapable of surviving on their own.

You also seem to grossly misunderstand evolution, we don't evolve to help other specie, we evolve, and other species evolve, to increase their likely hood of survival and move up the food chain, what you are suggesting would be the opposite and could cause situations were animals could take human lives or injure people due to a lack of control over them. I also don't think you quite understand the amount of things animal extracts actually go into. The disease flu kills more people worldwide than any other disease and we didn't have battery hens we wouldn't be able to produce the flu vaccine, hundreds of thousands would die, in fact probably millions. One example of hundreds I could give.

What your suggesting prolonged or immediate will cause economic and health problems for the entire world, your views are stupid, not thought through properly and extremist and thankfully they will never ever happen. Your views are actually as dangerous as any extreme right wing ones

did you read my answer at all.. how can it possibly cause immediate problems?... fear not.. no-one is going to march into your house tomorrow ad tell you you cant eat a bacon butty

As time passes, we will not breed "pets", therefore we will need for less and less meat to feed the pets as they will be less and less. this is the only way i can explain it.

Have you noticed (for example) the reduction in use of coal... 100 years ago it was essential and a world without it was unthinkable...slowly, over time we are reducing our reliance on it as we know it is not the best way forward.

The assumption that the world moves forward in a linear fashion is wrong.. i used the example once before, ill use it again... in the 1880s the city council of London was worried that the increased number of horses entering the city would..within a few years be unmanageable and their poo would become a serious health risk...suddenly, the car (no-one predicted that) came along and the problem did not exist... the world does not move in a linear way.

Your statement about flu has some basis, but i can draw the same bow and say that thousands will die this year from diseases caused by animals and the way they are kept and treated.

Most medicines can be synthetically manufactured now..it just costs more. Not to mention the fact that the world is overpopulated already..and a few million getting wiped out every few years isnt a bad thing... as you say, its happening now.. even with vaccines.

I appreciate that you think my views are stupid...and your entitled to your opinion. I dont quite know what scares you so much.. or makes my views extremist, i quite simply suggest that we do not have the right to kill other creatures.. for our pleasure.

Throughout history people who dont follow the conventions of the times have been called stupid and extremist... but without them, women, blacks, homosexuals and countless other downtroden groups would still be mistreated.

I do not fight for equal rights of animals.. merely for the right of them not to be killed just so that you and others like you can fill your fat lazy arses with yet more mcdondals.

[Manwell Pablo]

did you read my answer at all.. how can it possibly cause immediate problems?... fear not.. no-one is going to march into your house tomorrow ad tell you you cant eat a bacon butty

As time passes, we will not breed "pets", therefore we will need for less and less meat to feed the pets as they will be less and less. this is the only way i can explain it.

Have you noticed (for example) the reduction in use of coal... 100 years ago it was essential and a world without it was unthinkable...slowly, over time we are reducing our reliance on it as we know it is not the best way forward.

The assumption that the world moves forward in a linear fashion is wrong.. i used the example once before, ill use it again... in the 1880s the city council of London was worried that the increased number of horses entering the city would..within a few years be unmanageable and their poo would become a serious health risk...suddenly, the car (no-one predicted that) came along and the problem did not exist... the world does not move in a linear way.

Your statement about flu has some basis, but i can draw the same bow and say that thousands will die this year from diseases caused by animals and the way they are kept and treated.

Most medicines can be synthetically manufactured now..it just costs more. Not to mention the fact that the world is overpopulated already..and a few million getting wiped out every few years isnt a bad thing... as you say, its happening now.. even with vaccines.

I appreciate that you think my views are stupid...and your entitled to your opinion. I dont quite know what scares you so much.. or makes my views extremist, i quite simply suggest that we do not have the right to kill other creatures.. for our pleasure.

Throughout history people who dont follow the conventions of the times have been called stupid and extremist... but without them, women, blacks, homosexuals and countless other downtroden groups would still be mistreated.

I do not fight for equal rights of animals.. merely for the right of them not to be killed just so that you and others like you can fill your fat lazy arses with yet more mcdondals.

We will not breed pets? So we'll neut all domestic animals so they can't reproduce leading to their extermination........ your confusing me now I thought you were against animal cruelty?

Your point about Coal is garbage and I'd advise you to pick better examples if you want a serious debate, my missus works in a mining, it's still used today, a lot, we just import it now as it's cheaper, and it's being phased out because we've found more efficient uses of energy and it's a finite resource. Animals are not finite, and if you find better sources for the thousands of things we would have to go without without direct control of animals (your various mentions of bacon and macdonalds seems to underline the fact that you don't seem to grasp that this is about so much more than meat) I am sure we'd all happily leave the animals along

Don't know what your getting at with the linear thing, nice as your example was it's out of place, evolution is linear, extremely so, and without control some animals would grow in population and potentially become dangerous, especially if under this extreme lefty word your dreaming of we aren't allowed to kill them at any point.

Millions would die without medicine produced from animals full stop as not all can be reproduced, thats ignoring the economic and social implications, health companys around the world cannot save everyone they want because of financial implications and what your suggesting will make it much worse.

Your correct, and some of them have caused some of the biggest catastrophes seen in history views are nowhere near that of Martin Luthar King or a suffragette (who campaigned for Human rights) they a more akin to Osama Bin Laden or Adolf Hitler as you think your views are worth the death of thousands of people. You misunderstand me if you think I am scared what you suggest will never happen, there wont ever even be a debate about it it's that stupid, you say all you want is to stop killing animals but you haven't thought properly about the thousands of implications and suffering it would cause and your stupid examples or cirumcatantial events will not change that.

You argue all this yet if you were on your death bed in massive pain dying slowly of disease that could be cured by medication obtained from an animal you'd take it. Even if you'd deny it on here.

[Guest MattP]

Pleased that you acknowledge it is speciesism.

They may taste nice and provide clothing... but they dont need to, we can get all the taste and clothing we need, without taking lives.

that is pretty close to how i see the future.

If you really think people won't be eating meat in 250 years you are bonkers. Man has eaten meat since the start of time and always will do, for a start off people always want luxury and people won't stop that just so they don't hurt a few cows. Secondly, even in 250 years time there will be tribes/people still existing that have to eat meat to survive.

As for we can get the taste and clothing without taking lives? We can, but we won't human nature is to strive for the best and some of us will always continue to do that.

[Guest MattP]

Throughout history people who dont follow the conventions of the times have been called stupid and extremist... but without them, women, blacks, homosexuals and countless other downtroden groups would still be mistreated.

The problem with this is every single one you are mentioning is a HUMAN BEING.

It clearly is not the same. How can you not see that?

Give me something below the human race itself in any form that has equal rights as us? It's never happened and never will.

[21st Century Fox]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1824206,00.html

[Guest MattP]

http://www.time.com/...1824206,00.html

We techinally we decended from apes, so I'm ok with this one. Everyone loves a chimp.

[Carl the Llama]

We techinally we decended from apes, so I'm ok with this one. Everyone loves a chimp.

*insert joke about people loving MattP here*

[Guest MattP]

*insert joke about people loving MattP here*

Believe me I've been labelled a chimp or an ape on numerous occasions.

[ozleicester]

We will not breed pets? So we'll neut all domestic animals so they can't reproduce leading to their extermination........ your confusing me now I thought you were against animal cruelty?

The demand for pets will reduce, we will not breed them -simple

Your point about Coal is garbage and I'd advise you to pick better examples if you want a serious debate, my missus works in a mining, it's still used today, a lot, we just import it now as it's cheaper, and it's being phased out because we've found more efficient uses of energy and it's a finite resource. Animals are not finite, and if you find better sources for the thousands of things we would have to go without without direct control of animals (your various mentions of bacon and macdonalds seems to underline the fact that you don't seem to grasp that this is about so much more than meat) I am sure we'd all happily leave the animals along

ummm seriously i dont think you really trying now...

animals not finite? - lets try the word EXTINCTION, coal is used..but used LESS this is an evolutionary process.

Virtually ALL of the things we get from animals are available from alternative non cruel means, those that are not yet, will be in coming years.

We can already get food and clothing without killing.. but we still do it. - and you dont seem too happy to "leave animals alone"

Don't know what your getting at with the linear thing, nice as your example was it's out of place, evolution is linear, extremely so, and without control some animals would grow in population and potentially become dangerous, especially if under this extreme lefty word your dreaming of we aren't allowed to kill them at any point.

Millions would die without medicine produced from animals full stop as not all can be reproduced, thats ignoring the economic and social implications, health companys around the world cannot save everyone they want because of financial implications and what your suggesting will make it much worse.

millions will die in the coming years due to our farming practices

Your correct, and some of them have caused some of the biggest catastrophes seen in history views are nowhere near that of Martin Luthar King or a suffragette (who campaigned for Human rights) they a more akin to Osama Bin Laden or Adolf Hitler as you think your views are worth the death of thousands of people. You misunderstand me if you think I am scared what you suggest will never happen, there wont ever even be a debate about it it's that stupid, you say all you want is to stop killing animals but you haven't thought properly about the thousands of implications and suffering it would cause and your stupid examples or cirumcatantial events will not change that.

ridiculous! stupid and a poor attempt at trolling.

You argue all this yet if you were on your death bed in massive pain dying slowly of disease that could be cured by medication obtained from an animal you'd take it. Even if you'd deny it on here.

your indepth knowledge of me is impressive. wrong! but as with most of your points, why let the truth stand in the way of trolling.. let me ask you, if you were dying in pain on your death bed, would you do ANYTHING to stay alive? of course not, you wont kill another human so you can survive (i assume)... i dont see why i have the right to kill another creature to to prolong my life.

If you really think people won't be eating meat in 250 years you are bonkers. Man has eaten meat since the start of time and always will do, for a start off people always want luxury and people won't stop that just so they don't hurt a few cows. Secondly, even in 250 years time there will be tribes/people still existing that have to eat meat to survive.

Completely wrong! - we only started eating meat between 10 and 20,000 years ago (for more information theres a neat little place not far from Leicester called Cresswell Crags which can help you understand) the huge percentage of our evolution has seen humans NOT eating meat.

As for we can get the taste and clothing without taking lives? We can, but we won't human nature is to strive for the best and some of us will always continue to do that.

Leather is inferior to synthetic, its only people with some misguided belief that leather makes something better than synthetic, foods are completely replaceable and are better for us if they are not animal based, simple facts

The problem with this is every single one you are mentioning is a HUMAN BEING.

It clearly is not the same. How can you not see that?

Give me something below the human race itself in any form that has equal rights as us? It's never happened and never will.

you dont seem to understand that in the past... the groups/people ive mentioned, were until recently considered below the ruling majority, thats how we were quite comfortabel with slavery... the slaves were considered less human.

http://www.time.com/...1824206,00.html

Interesting, im not sure giving animals EQUAL rights to humans is fair, with rights come responsibilities and im not sure that animals are able to exercise both*... I would just be happy if they were accoreded the right to not be killed for pleasure.

* this could be my own predjudices.

so my turn for a question.

What is it that makes it right for us to kill animals..

because we can?,

because they are of a lower intelligence (as judged by our measure)?

why do we have this right?

[Carl the Llama]

so my turn for a question.

What is it that makes it right for us to kill animals..

because we can?,

because they are of a lower intelligence (as judged by our measure)?

why do we have this right?

We need to kill certain animals as part of our natural diet. No self important vegetarian can make me change my mind there. The real challenge is getting the demand met whilst keeping the living and dying conditions humane. This is where consumer power and educated purchasing needs to come into play.

Unfortunately there are some who kill animals because it makes them feel big and gives them something to masturbate to.

[ozleicester]

We need to kill certain animals as part of our natural diet. No self important vegetarian can make me change my mind there. The real challenge is getting the demand met whilst keeping the living and dying conditions humane. This is where consumer power and educated purchasing needs to come into play.

Unfortunately there are some who kill animals because it makes them feel big and gives them something to masturbate to.

We do not NEED to kill animals - this is a choice we make...there are substitutes for virtually all that animals provide. so i am afraid that need is not an honest answer.

The humane KILLING (see the contradiction there?) of animals is just something we as humans do, to justify our desires.

[Guest MattP]

so my turn for a question.

What is it that makes it right for us to kill animals..

because we can?,

because they are of a lower intelligence (as judged by our measure)?

why do we have this right?

Because we have evolved to do it. Do whales have a right to eat fish? Of course they do, part of the food crain.

you dont seem to understand that in the past... the groups/people ive mentioned, were until recently considered below the ruling majority, thats how we were quite comfortabel with slavery... the slaves were considered less human.

less human, still considered human and that's why eventually it was realised as wrong.

We do not NEED to kill animals - this is a choice we make...there are substitutes for virtually all that animals provide.

Problem is the substitutes are shit, you can't substitute the taste of a T-Bone steak and that's why people will always be eating things like it.

[ozleicester]

Because we have evolved to do it. Do whales have a right to eat fish? Of course they do, part of the food crain.

Problem is the substitutes are shit, you can't substitute the taste of a T-Bone steak and that's why people will always be eating things like it.

so you are no more intelligent than a whale?... becareful with statements like that.. people will be kiliing and eating you.

Substitutes are shit... and there we have the answer, dont bother with protestations of good for society, essential for us...need, or anything else. they taste better so i kill them.

[Guest MattP]

and now as I've came in here again I'm going to have to cook some meat.

got some nice beef sandwiches in the fridge, what would you subsitute that with?

[Guest MattP]

so you are no more intelligent than a whale?... becareful with statements like that.. people will be kiliing and eating you.

Substitutes are shit... and there we have the answer, dont bother with protestations of good for society, essential for us...need, or anything else. they taste better so i kill them.

Yeah of course I am, that's why when I go hunting despite me standing their with a gun a rabbit will still look at me not realising he's about to have his neck ringed.

It's not good for society, a society without meat would collapse, most men need their fill.

[Rincewind]

We techinally we decended from apes, so I'm ok with this one. Everyone loves a chimp.

All life forms, also, so the DNA theory goes, descended from blobs that walked/crawled out of the sea but in equality sense a human is equal to a human and a horse is only equal to a horse as a species.

[Carl the Llama]

We do not NEED to kill animals - this is a choice we make...there are substitutes for virtually all that animals provide. so i am afraid that need is not an honest answer.

What? It was very honest, you just disagree with it.

I have a vegetarian sister so I can say with authority that the substitutes employed are pale imitations. They're 'dishonest' as you might say. Some vegetarian dishes can be very nice, but they're the ones which never include meat substitute products and I certainly wouldn't live off them.

The humane KILLING (see the contradiction there?) of animals is just something we as humans do, to justify our desires.

No, enlighten me as to how an animal being bred in comfort for the sole purpose of being meat one day and then being painlessly killed contradicts the term 'humane'. You're not talking to a battery chicken man here.

[Rincewind]

A place I went to the other day I was going to have some sort of cheese flan but was told there is only a small piece left I can put extra vegetables on. Vegetable dish with vegetables? I opted for the chicken pie.

I don't mind vege dishes when I get a meat accompaniment. .