Cameron - Time for Britain to sink or swim?

[leicsmac]

Pathetic posturing to the blue-rinse brigade and hideous politicking by dragging his dead Dad and dead kid into it.

Posh sods safeguarding the wealth of other posh sods, spreading the lie that the Middle classes can be wealthy too while fvcking the plebs up the arse.

Clueless U-turning party taking the country straight for a triple-dip recession.

Horrible, soulless shits.

Don't sit on the fence there Dags...tell us what you really feel.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Pathetic posturing to the blue-rinse brigade and hideous politicking by dragging his dead Dad and dead kid into it.

Don't we want a bit more of a human side from politicians? Cameron did that - by referencing two very important people who have shaped his life - and why shouldn't he?

I think you are the pathetic one for beating him over the head with that comment.

[davieG]

Just my opinion but I've always thought that people who choose to bitch and moan about politicians and politics should have gone into politics themselves. That way, you yourself may be able, with the right motivation and ability, to change things for what you consider to be for the better.

Whatever people's opinions are on Cameron, he's the PM. In politics, the top of the pile. In most cases, you don't achieve this by being 'a twat' or thick or stupid. You might not like him, his policies or his party. But I respect him for what he has achieved in politics.

But that won't be a popular opinion because its not 'cool' to even suggest it.

With such a party political landscape at both local and national levels it's not that easy if you don't want to be part of that political set up.

How many independent MPs are there?

[RobHawk]

Just my opinion but I've always thought that people who choose to bitch and moan about politicians and politics should have gone into politics themselves. That way, you yourself may be able, with the right motivation and ability, to change things for what you consider to be for the better.

Whatever people's opinions are on Cameron, he's the PM. In politics, the top of the pile. In most cases, you don't achieve this by being 'a twat' or thick or stupid. You might not like him, his policies or his party. But I respect him for what he has achieved in politics.

But that won't be a popular opinion because its not 'cool' to even suggest it.

How many Mp's haven't been to private school? Most are so wealthy they take up politics to give them something to do! It's alot harder when you are struggling to keep a roof over your head and feed your family! I'm not saying Its impossible for us plebs to get into politics but its definitely alot harder!

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

I dont know how our country is ever going to turn itself around, decades of poor decisions made by both parties have left the UK in a complete mess, years of political correctness has created an underclass with no social values,no respect and no fear of authority. Its a disgrace that both Labour and Conservative parties who have allowed this to happen. I would love to see this country rise its head above the water and swim, reducing benefit given to large families is a good start, but unless some more drastic decisions are made I can only see us sinking further into the cesspit.

[Guest Col city fan]

How many Mp's haven't been to private school? Most are so wealthy they take up politics to give them something to do! It's alot harder when you are struggling to keep a roof over your head and feed your family! I'm not saying Its impossible for us plebs to get into politics but its definitely alot harder!

The proportion of independently educated Ministers attending Cabinet is 62%. Nearly twice that of previous cabinets under the Labour Prime Ministers (37% in 2004).

This demonstrates that, although the proportion is currently high, it's not been massively so over the past 15 years. The lowest was actually under the Blair govt (32%).

Any under-grad can join a political party. I joined the Labour Party whilst at Uni (Labour students are just as strong and vocal at Uni's as Tories, even at the top ones) and contributed to the society and attended debates. I could have gone into politics but chose not to.

Anyone can get into local politics too. Just join a party and attend meetings.

Until people stop bitching about 'the old boy network' and really get involved in politics, things won't change.

I think it's about how much you want to get involved. However, politics isn't as easy as people think. I know when I went to Uni, some of the best speakers were very good at it. They made you want to listen. These people weren't all from Eton or Winchester. Some were, some weren't.

I simply think if you are a strong enough personality and want to challenge the hegemony, you can. It might not be easy, but not impossible. If you want it enough and if you are good enough.

I'm not being purposefully obtuse on this. I simply think the fact that people from state schools can get into cabinet shows that its not impossible.

I think it also shows that, if you really want to get into politics, work hard in your academic life, obtain good grades and try to get to the best Uni you can. That's meritocracy isn't it?

Bugger the public school boys (no pun intended). Just because they may have social and financial advantage, it don't mean you can't compete with them if you really want to enough.

It almost seems that it's 'a given' that the top politicians have to all come from public school. Well it's still a somewhat bent system, but not insurmountable.

[Thracian]

Meanwhile hitting the most vulnerable in the pocket whilst leaving their rich buddies alone, all whilst overseeing continued humiliation when trying to generate growth and job creation. Yea those warm fuzzy tories. They will not win the next election and i think they know it (they didn't even win the last one despite it being the biggest open goal in history). They will bleed too many votes to UKIP whilst a great deal of Liberal Democrats will transfer "home" to Labour.

What a thought. How easily you forget or ignore what wonders recent Labour administations did for the British working class. It really is a wonder any of them vote Labour - cos it's been like fish shoals voting for drift nets.

Cameron's problem is that he doesn't have the courage of his convictions. What an opportunity the bloke had to be a real hero.

[Zingari]

it's all a fookin charade they're told what to say and do .

[purpleronnie]

it's all a fookin charade they're told what to say and do .

by aliens.

[davieG]

The proportion of independently educated Ministers attending Cabinet is 62%. Nearly twice that of previous cabinets under the Labour Prime Ministers (37% in 2004).

This demonstrates that, although the proportion is currently high, it's not been massively so over the past 15 years. The lowest was actually under the Blair govt (32%).

Any under-grad can join a political party. I joined the Labour Party whilst at Uni (Labour students are just as strong and vocal at Uni's as Tories, even at the top ones) and contributed to the society and attended debates. I could have gone into politics but chose not to.

Anyone can get into local politics too. Just join a party and attend meetings.

Until people stop bitching about 'the old boy network' and really get involved in politics, things won't change.

I think it's about how much you want to get involved. However, politics isn't as easy as people think. I know when I went to Uni, some of the best speakers were very good at it. They made you want to listen. These people weren't all from Eton or Winchester. Some were, some weren't.

I simply think if you are a strong enough personality and want to challenge the hegemony, you can. It might not be easy, but not impossible. If you want it enough and if you are good enough.

What if you have little or no affinity with the party political system or any particular party, seemingly a growing number of people have then it's almost impossible to get involved other than on the periphery which frankly in the centralised government we have is of little or no consequence..

[Zingari]

by aliens.

To the British , yes

World banksters call the shots . the politics we vote on is no more than just fiddling with the presentation.

[Guest Col city fan]

What if you have little or no affinity with the party political system or any particular party, seemingly a growing number of people have then it's almost impossible to get involved other than on the periphery which frankly in the centralised government we have is of little or no consequence..

That's always been the case DG. Pre about 1934, almost EVERY member of any cabinet was educated at Oxford. Thats not the case now and it doesn't mean you should stop trying.

Even the BNP won seats at the last but one election I think? For the first time ever.

For me it's clear really.

A. Moan and bitch about politics and politicians

Or

B. Really try to do something about it.

[davieG]

That's always been the case DG. Pre about 1934, almost EVERY member of any cabinet was educated at Oxford. Thats not the case now and it doesn't mean you should stop trying.

Even the BNP won seats at the last but one election I think? For the first time ever.

For me it's clear really.

A. Moan and bitch about politics and politicians

Or

B. Really try to do something about it.

That really doesn't answer the question. "Even the BNP", you'll notice they are also a political party.

The voting system is set up to sustain the party machine and the media are happy to make use of it by pitting one against the other and the public lap it up like it's some TV soap. It's virtually nigh on impossible for an 'ordinary' person to become an Independent MP

Local government used to be non-party political, well on the surface, admittedly only open to the rich but now it's awash with party politics where the national party line is followed at the expense of local needs.

[Guest Col city fan]

That really doesn't answer the question. "Even the BNP", you'll notice they are also a political party.

The voting system is set up to sustain the party machine and the media are happy to make use of it by pitting one against the other and the public lap it up like it's some TV soap. It's virtually nigh on impossible for an 'ordinary' person to become an Independent MP

Local government used to be non-party political, well on the surface, admittedly only open to the rich but now it's awash with party politics where the national party line is followed at the expense of local needs.

Can't argue with any of this.

So people should just 'stop trying'?

I wonder what Emily Davison, Nelson Mandela or Martin Luther King would have thought about that?

Or even Maggie Thatcher as the first woman PM?

The first past the post system has been in place in the UK for a very long time. But that doesn't mean the Greens, UKIP or, as I said, the BNP can't win seats and influence policy.

Who would have thought Alex Salmond would be Scottish first minister 20 years ago?

[RobHawk]

Can't argue with any of this.

So people should just 'stop trying'?

I wonder what Emily Davison, Nelson Mandela or Martin Luther King would have thought about that?

Or even Maggie Thatcher as the first woman PM?

The first past the post system has been in place in the UK for a very long time. But that doesn't mean the Greens, UKIP or, as I said, the BNP can't win seats and influence policy.

Who would have thought Alex Salmond would be Scottish first minister 20 years ago?

I agree with you in principle Col. I think anyone who has a true burning desire to make a change could work really really hard and have a chance of doing that! whether it be locally or nationally.

My main issue with politics, which leads to the same point DavieG was making is that they are all generally awful! To do well within a political party you have to tread the party line, i personally would set my values that closest to Green, labour or lib dems, but i perhaps only agree with each of them 30% of the time! Party politics does not allow MP's - especially those in the cabinet or shadow cabinet to have there own voice or thought processes. I personally could never be told what to say or think, this immediately makes me 99.9% unlikely to get elected (especially as i am in a labour stronghold).

The great individuals are great for a reason! Maggie was some sort of Witch so doesn't count, and unfortunately i'm not that great (or magic)!

[Guest Col city fan]

I agree with you in principle Col. I think anyone who has a true burning desire to make a change could work really really hard and have a chance of doing that! whether it be locally or nationally.

My main issue with politics, which leads to the same point DavieG was making is that they are all generally awful! To do well within a political party you have to tread the party line, i personally would set my values that closest to Green, labour or lib dems, but i perhaps only agree with each of them 30% of the time! Party politics does not allow MP's - especially those in the cabinet or shadow cabinet to have there own voice or thought processes. I personally could never be told what to say or think, this immediately makes me 99.9% unlikely to get elected (especially as i am in a labour stronghold).

The great individuals are great for a reason! Maggie was some sort of Witch so doesn't count, and unfortunately i'm not that great (or magic)!

Couldn't agree with you more mate. The great individuals are there for a reason.

The political system is what it is. First past the post, chief whips, the old boy network etc etc.

Politics is history and history is politics. It's as old as time in its various forms and guises.

I simply think people can do one of two things. Reluctantly accept it, ridicule it, call people 'twats' etc etc, OR they can in their own way, small or large, try to do something about it.

If you adopt the former strategy you will remain frustrated and continue to 'knock the establishment'. Or you may just accept 'it is what it is' and just get on with it. Hence voter apathy.

If you adopt the latter, you may be able to chip away at the edges, gradually until things start to change, in your own eyes, for the better. At least you will then think you've 'had a go' and may feel better for it.

Just as an aside, when I watched Cameron (and his Missis) get emotional about their son, it seemed genuine enough to me.

Politicians are constantly knocked for not being 'real world'. Then, when they are, they are knocked again. It's a no win situation in this respect.

[Guest BlueBrett]

At least the Tories seem to have some degree of ideology left in them as opposed to Labour who will say literally anything if they think it will make them more popular.

For me the most effective line in Cameron's speech was where he talked about Labour trying to present themselves as a 'one nation' party whilst simultaneously trying to initiate class war. That is pretty much their entire electoral strategy in a nutshell.

Personally I don't care how wealthy someone is or what school they went to I just want the best people for the job. Really don't understand all the inverse snobbery that is around these days, I can only assume it is born out of jealousy. Still, there seems to be enough people out there with a chip on their shoulder for it to play well so I suppose I can't blame them for trying it - gives them something to go on about while they wait for the opinion polls to tell them which policies to pretend to believe in.

[RobHawk]

At least the Tories seem to have some degree of ideology left in them as opposed to Labour who will say literally anything if they think it will make them more popular.

For me the most effective line in Cameron's speech was where he talked about Labour trying to present themselves as a 'one nation' party whilst simultaneously trying to initiate class war. That is pretty much their entire electoral strategy in a nutshell.

Personally I don't care how wealthy someone is or what school they went to I just want the best people for the job. Really don't understand all the inverse snobbery that is around these days, I can only assume it is born out of jealousy. Still, there seems to be enough people out there with a chip on their shoulder for it to play well so I suppose I can't blame them for trying it - gives them something to go on about while they wait for the opinion polls to tell them which policies to pretend to believe in.

Pretty sure the Tory's have done exactly the same thing for the last 5 years!

[RobHawk]

Couldn't agree with you more mate. The great individuals are there for a reason.

The political system is what it is. First past the post, chief whips, the old boy network etc etc.

Politics is history and history is politics. It's as old as time in its various forms and guises.

I simply think people can do one of two things. Reluctantly accept it, ridicule it, call people 'twats' etc etc, OR they can in their own way, small or large, try to do something about it.

If you adopt the former strategy you will remain frustrated and continue to 'knock the establishment'. Or you may just accept 'it is what it is' and just get on with it. Hence voter apathy.

If you adopt the latter, you may be able to chip away at the edges, gradually until things start to change, in your own eyes, for the better. At least you will then think you've 'had a go' and may feel better for it.

Just as an aside, when I watched Cameron (and his Missis) get emotional about their son, it seemed genuine enough to me.

Politicians are constantly knocked for not being 'real world'. Then, when they are, they are knocked again. It's a no win situation in this respect.

I know what you are saying but for me it was so staged it was cringe worthy. It was like an episode of the XFactor, when they have to get the public to feel sorry for them to get more votes! But, that does appeal to alot of people so i can understand why it was done. It just needed some soft music in the background and it would have been there all the way!

[Guest Col city fan]

I know what you are saying but for me it was so staged it was cringe worthy. It was like an episode of the XFactor, when they have to get the public to feel sorry for them to get more votes! But, that does appeal to alot of people so i can understand why it was done. It just needed some soft music in the background and it would have been there all the way!

It's all perceptions isn't it.

I really didn't see it that way.

If Politicians have sunk so low as to 'stage' tears at the death of their own son it's a sad time.

It either shows that they will do nie on everything to be/remain in power OR the populace has become incredibly cynical.

Or both maybe.

[MooseBreath]

His Mrs did make a pretty sharp look towards the camera as she was looking like starting to cry. Whatever was going through her mind at that time, she clearly knew the camera was on her

[Guest MattP]

Sick of these fcuking Tories going on TV and crying about their dead children to try and get votes.

I mean what sort of sick bastard would start this sort of stuff by bringing it into politics?

[Guest MattP]

It's all perceptions isn't it.

I really didn't see it that way.

If Politicians have sunk so low as to 'stage' tears at the death of their own son it's a sad time.

It either shows that they will do nie on everything to be/remain in power OR the populace has become incredibly cynical.

Or both maybe.

I really can't understand the annoyance about it at all, he made the point as it was in reference to the Paralympics, he said after an event like people would see the person rather than the wheelchair.

But he's a Tory isn't he? So I wouldn't expect any other reaction from some people.

[RobHawk]

It's all perceptions isn't it.

I really didn't see it that way.

If Politicians have sunk so low as to 'stage' tears at the death of their own son it's a sad time.

It either shows that they will do nie on everything to be/remain in power OR the populace has become incredibly cynical.

Or both maybe.

I wouldn't say the tears were staged. He's lost 2 people very dear to him and to speak about them in that context would bring a tear to the eye. From what i saw of the speech that wasn't really a need for that in his speech though. Putting himself in that situation was a massive set up and i thought it showed!

[RobHawk]

I really can't understand the annoyance about it at all, he made the point as it was in reference to the Paralympics, he said after an event like people would see the person rather than the wheelchair.

But he's a Tory isn't he? So I wouldn't expect any other reaction from some people.

They are all as bad as each other Matt, the tory's are generally my sworn political enemy but im not stupid! I agree with alot of points they make - i tend to disagree with how they go about solving them but thats another matter.

I honestly felt that within cams speech he set himself up have what i call this X-factor moment! Browns was cringeworthy too but It was years ago and not really relevant to the party conferences this year!