Greece - A Catastrophe

[Webbo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-15720438

Technocrats are riding to the rescue in Greece and Italy. But can economic experts really solve problems that have already ruined notable political careers?

Goodbye, Berlusconi and Papandreou. Hello, Monti and Papademos.

As the prime ministers of Italy and Greece exited through the revolving doors of power, in came two wise men with no mandate to govern but clutching glittering CVs.

While he was EU competitions commissioner, respected economist Mario Monti showed his mettle by taking on computing giant Microsoft, and he's expected to appoint a government made up of other technocrats. Lucas Papademos is former vice-president of the European Central Bank.

[Finnegan]

Pretty good article on Golden Dawn, the above mentioned fascists, and their growth in Greece.

[Carl the Llama]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-15720438

At first I thought the article must be misleading for you to post it as evidence, but the final 5 paragraphs make it clear that this is the result of the individual countries' political systems, meaning you must not have read it properly.

So, as promised:

[Guest MattP]

At first I thought the article must be misleading for you to post it as evidence, but the final 5 paragraphs make it clear that this is the result of the individual countries' political systems, meaning you must not have read it properly.

So, as promised:

Fcuk me if you made a parody of the picture posting leftist brigade on here you would actually be it. How did get so good after so few posts?? hmmmmmmmmm

[Alf Bentley]

As some of you know I am half Greek.

And my friends brother, a professor, has made a 30 minute documentary about Greece's troubles.

It's worth a look if you have half an hour and an interest in the subject.

Thanks for posting this moving, angering and worrying film, Mack.

I hope a lot of people take the time to watch it (30 mins) - spare the time.

[Carl the Llama]

Fcuk me if you made a parody of the picture posting leftist brigade on here you would actually be it. How did get so good after so few posts?? hmmmmmmmmm

Likewise, if you made a parody of the easily misled, assumption making righty brigade who don't read their own evidence before using it in such a way as to contradict themselves... well you see where I'm going with this Matt & Webbo.

[Webbo]

At first I thought the article must be misleading for you to post it as evidence, but the final 5 paragraphs make it clear that this is the result of the individual countries' political systems, meaning you must not have read it properly.

So, as promised:

Whereabouts does it say that?

There is no suggestion that these two appointments are part of a wider European trend, he says. Indeed there may have been periods in the last 10 or 20 years when there were more examples than there are now.

"Smaller European states have often turned to technocrats when they have difficulty in getting a viable coalition together and a non-party figure is part of the deal brokered."

Technocratic government don't happen in the UK, he adds, partly because the first-past-the-post electoral system makes coalitions like the present ruling partnership a rarity.

But more fundamentally, there is an anti-intellectual streak in British politics, he believes.

"Culturally we don't put academics on a pedestal, which they do in Athens and Rome."

Did you not read the bit about having no mandate to govern? Do you think political parties fight elections and then just give up power voluntarily?It was widely reported at the time, I'm not sure if you're a troll or just a bit thick.

[Carl the Llama]

Whereabouts does it say that?

Did you not read the bit about having no mandate to govern? Do you think political parties fight elections and then just give up power voluntarily?It was widely reported at the time, I'm not sure if you're a troll or just a bit thick.

I'm neither, just a guy with a better understanding of politics than you it seems. Remember when Brown got put in power after Blair left? He had no mandate and he wasn't some EU puppet either. It's pretty much the same as that (I say pretty much but there are many situational differences I don't have the inclination to go into right now). The EU has nothing to do with it.

We clear now?

[Webbo]

I'm neither, just a guy with a better understanding of politics than you it seems. Remember when Brown got put in power after Blair left? He had no mandate and he wasn't some EU puppet either. It's pretty much the same as that (I say pretty much but there are many situational differences I don't have the inclination to go into right now). The EU has nothing to do with it.

We clear now?

Gordon Brown was an elected MP, He was elected unopposed as the leader of the biggest party there is absolutely no comparison.

I've decided that you aren't faking and you really are as thick as shit so I won't be wasting anymore time on you.

[Guest MattP]

I'm neither, just a guy with a better understanding of politics than you it seems. Remember when Brown got put in power after Blair left? He had no mandate and he wasn't some EU puppet either. It's pretty much the same as that (I say pretty much but there are many situational differences I don't have the inclination to go into right now). The EU has nothing to do with it.

We clear now?

Are you joking?, Brown was an elected MP.

Absolutely no comparison to the situation of "negotiating" with politicians not a single person in your own country has voted in to decide who should take up certain positions.

How would feel if the Senate in the US or the head of the UN decided we needed a new "foreign secretary" and wanted to negotiate with us to decide who we get?

[Carl the Llama]

Gordon Brown was an elected MP, He was elected unopposed as the leader of the biggest party there is absolutely no comparison.

I've decided that you aren't faking and you really are as thick as shit so I won't be wasting anymore time on you.

Your clueless arrogance really is making me angry, but as I do with anyone who doesn't understand apparently basic things I'm doing my best to explain it patiently. Here goes another attempt:

Mario Monti (taken from wikipedia):

On 9 November 2011, Monti was appointed a Lifetime Senator by Italian President Giorgio Napolitano.^[28] He was seen as a favourite to replace Silvio Berlusconi to lead a new unity government in Italy in order to implement reforms and austerity measures.^[29] On 12 November 2011, following Berlusconi's resignation, Napolitano invited Monti to form a new government.^[30] Monti accepted the offer, and held talks with the leaders of the main Italian political parties, declaring that he wanted to form a government that would remain in office until the next scheduled general elections in 2013.^[31] On 16 November 2011, Monti was officially sworn in as Prime Minister of Italy, after unveiling a technocratic cabinet composed entirely of unelected professionals.^[32] He also chose to hold the post of Minister of Economy and Finance.^[33][34] On 17 and 18 November 2011, the Italian Senate and Italian Chamber of Deputies both passed motions of confidence supporting Monti's government, with only Lega Nord voting against

Nothing to do with the EU.

Lucas Papademos (again, taken from wikipedia, so no excuse for you not doing your homework):

Papademos was first proposed as a potential caretaker Prime Minister of Greece in early November 2011, after Prime Minister George Papandreou offered to resign and allow a provisional coalition government to deal with the major political turmoil caused by the country's debt crisis.^[9][10]

Lucas Papademos set two conditions upon which he would accept the offer of being Prime Minister of this provisional government. The first was that the new government would not have a very restricted life span as New Democracy had demanded, and the second was that political figures from both New Democracy and the Panhellenic Socialist Movement(PASOK) would participate in the government. Both of these were initially vetoed by New Democracy, but after several days of negotiations they relented and accepted Papademos' demands. This enabled Papademos to form a government made up of PASOK and New Democracy, with the support of the far-right Popular Orthodox Rally.

After a week of political turmoil and negotiations between parties triggered by Papandreou's resignation, Papademos was sworn in as Prime Minister of Greece on 11 November 2011, unveiling his provisional Cabinet shortly afterwards.^[11] The other two parliamentary parties, theCommunist Party and the Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA), had refused Papandreou's invitation to participate in the government.^[12] The provisional government also marks the first time that the far-right has played a part in any Greek government since the fall of the military junta in 1974.^[13]

Nothing to do with the EU.

It is rather staggering how you both seem to believe that other countries have absolutely no say in their government whatsoever.

And, to close, since I said I'd post this every time you made it clear you hadn't read up on the topic properly:

Sorry for hijacking your thread Mack, but I felt compelled to correct these guys' huge misconceptions about the way the EU operates.

[Carl the Llama]

Last post in here, I promise.

I've tried teaching you two where you were going wrong. I've done all I can and so, before I have an aneurism:

I'm tired, I'm finished and I'm going to bed. You can take the facts I've given you. You can leave them. I no longer care and you are both lost causes it would seem. I hope you prove me wrong, otherwise good luck getting people with political knowledge to take you seriously on the EU issue. That said, I salute you both for your staunch refusal to budge from your minds' comfort zones. Adios. Arrividerci. God speed.

[Alf Bentley]

Did you not read the bit about having no mandate to govern? Do you think political parties fight elections and then just give up power voluntarily?It was widely reported at the time, I'm not sure if you're a troll or just a bit thick.

How would feel if the Senate in the US or the head of the UN decided we needed a new "foreign secretary" and wanted to negotiate with us to decide who we get?

I'm tired, I'm finished and I'm going to bed. You can take the facts I've given you. You can leave them. I no longer care and you are both lost causes it would seem. I hope you prove me wrong, otherwise good luck getting people with political knowledge to take you seriously on the EU issue. That said, I salute you both for your staunch refusal to budge from your minds' comfort zones. Adios. Arrividerci. God speed.

I admire your idealism, BoxingFoxes, and so should that pair of crusty old reactionaries, MattP and Webbo, even if they are just winding you up.

In a way, I think both sides are right. Of course, the EU didn't impose Monti on Italy or whoever it was on Greece, as you say, BoxingFoxes. The official decisions were taken by the parliaments or democratically-elected officials of Italy and Greece...but under a certain duress. Basically, the deal was "appoint these EU-approved politicians to implement austerity politics in your country and you'll get an EU bail-out....or exercise your democratic national right to refuse and you may find yourself a bit short of cash". Someone subject to blackmail or a protection racket has the same democratic freedom to refuse....

So, irony of ironies, we have the crusty reactionaries, MattP and Webbo, idealistically supporting the democratic right of Italy and Greece to reject the imposition of right-wing austerity politics by the EU!! And at a time when those policies are being implemented voluntarily in the UK, with their support!! I quite agree, lads. Sod the deficit (in the short term)! Bring on a Keynesian counter-cyclical public spending boost, as per Roosevelt's New Deal in the 1930s, and let's have a democratic redistributionist Europe!

Meanwhile, the usual fiasco goes on....

UK government (usually, but not always Tory) blusters in "the British interest", then signs a dodgy deal/treaty. Powers are transferred to the EU as a result, then UK government fumes publicly at EU for PR purposes. Of course, the most powerful body in the EU is the European Council, which comprises Cameron and his mates and their counterparts; the second legislative body is the European parliament (directly elected, including here, with UKIP MEPs), while the Commission, unelected but comprising national appointees ("****ing Brussels" to the Europhobes) has no legislative powers whatsoever, only the power to suggest and implement legislation....not that anyone would realise that from the public debate...

[Alf Bentley]

Greece was doing fine before the Euro.

It really, really wasn't. They joined the EU because they thought it would give them the financial boost they desperately needed. Instead they became an economic deadweight.

I'm no expert on Greece, but do know enough to know that acooling is right here.

Here's what I do know:

- 500BC-ish: Greeks invent politics and democracy, though they take a while to catch on

- 1929: Wall Street Crash - financial crisis brings poverty to USA/UK & contributes to rise of Naziism in Germany

- 1930s: After failed bone-headed efforts at "balancing the budget", wiser minds like Roosevelt and Keynes prevail, and the world realises that you need public spending in a recession (and a budget surplus in a boom); Hitler adopts his own version of this, boosting the German economy through military spending, while stoking up nationalism

- 1940s: Greek freedom fighter contribute bravely to the Allied cause, fighting the Nazis

- Post-war: Turbulence and dictatorship in Greece

- 1973: End of the "fascist" military regime in Greece

-1981: Greece joins the EC (future EU), seeking greater economic prosperity through convergence & democratic consolidation

- 1981-2001: Greece achieves most of its dreams: rapid rise in GDP, living standards & convergence, if still among poorest in EU

- 2001: Greece fraudulently bends the rules to gain entry to the Euro

- 2008-2010: Global financial crisis leaves Greece in front line, given its pre-existing deficit (fraudulently under-declared to EU)

-2010-2012: Greece, with 25% unemployment & 50% youth unemployment, is forced by the UE into swingeing public spending cuts in a doomed attempt to balance its budget (where are growth/tax revenue supposed to come from?!) so as to get bail-outs and stay in the Euro....while various bone-headed countries, including UK, voluntarily adopt the same pre-1930s policies

-Now: Greece is no nearer to sorting out its deficit/debt/Euro problems, but is traumatised and at serious risk of a fascist takeover; we're no nearer to tackling our deficit, but are creating massive social/employment prblems

This really is (Greek) tragedy - history repeating itself as tragedy AND farce!

Of course, the private sector will take up the slack here, won't it?....with no customers and no demand, domestic or foreign...

Yeah, there's obviously a tax non-payment culture problem in Greece, but are we so different? How much are Amazon, E-Bay & Starbucks paying via their offshore havens? And how many plumbers take cheques?

[Bellend Sebastian]

I went to Greece a couple of years ago and I had a lovely time

[ozleicester]

I saw Grease a few years ago - That Sandy was a good sort then

[Alf Bentley]

I saw Grease a few years ago - That Sandy was a good sort then

Didn't you think her hair was a bit greasy?

[Webbo]

In a way, I think both sides are right. Of course, the EU didn't impose Monti on Italy or whoever it was on Greece, as you say, BoxingFoxes. The official decisions were taken by the parliaments or democratically-elected officials of Italy and Greece...but under a certain duress. Basically, the deal was "appoint these EU-approved politicians to implement austerity politics in your country and you'll get an EU bail-out....or exercise your democratic national right to refuse and you may find yourself a bit short of cash". Someone subject to blackmail or a protection racket has the same democratic freedom to refuse....

I wouldn't argue with that definition.

So, irony of ironies, we have the crusty reactionaries, MattP and Webbo, idealistically supporting the democratic right of Italy and Greece to reject the imposition of right-wing austerity politics by the EU!! And at a time when those policies are being implemented voluntarily in the UK, with their support!!

The difference is is that we voted for those policies. I've no interest in how other countries run their affairs and wouldn't dream of telling them who their PM should be.

[Guest MattP]

You need to post more Alf, always a really good read.

Like Webbo says above, whatever politicial leaning we support it's not up to us or anyone connected with the European Council/Commission/Union to decide what politicians a state elects, that's for that countries people and no one else.

[Alf Bentley]

You need to post more Alf, always a really good read.

Thanks, but I do have to do some work sometimes (like now). Hence the verbose, beer-influenced 1am diatribes! I'm resolved to be a bit more succinct in future....believe it when I see it.

Likewise, always enjoy a good exchange of views - and it's more interesting with the likes of you, whom I generally disagree with, than with fellow lefties.

[Mack]

The guy in the middle is an immigrant in Greece, the assholes around him are Golden Dawn attacking him. Despite categoric proof of the identity of the assailants the Police did nothing.

An Anti Fascist group then found out who the guy with the knife to the back right is and burnt his motorbike.

This is happening in Europe right now.

[BunkMoreland]

Guy at the back right looks like he is rocking out on a left handed air guitar

[Mack]

IF Golden Dawn somehow become powerful in Greece people will have to take notice, but by then it might be too late...

[breadandcheese]

The guy in the middle is an immigrant in Greece, the assholes around him are Golden Dawn attacking him. Despite categoric proof of the identity of the assailants the Police did nothing.

An Anti Fascist group then found out who the guy with the knife to the back right is and burnt his motorbike.

This is happening is Europe right now.

Frightening, depressing, anger inducing and everything in between, It is something I hoped that I only read about in history books.

[lavrentis]

My Greek friends have so much German resentment