Midfield Rotation

[Corky]

Nope, I had my picture took with Waghorn during his loan spell.

Also Wayne Brown for that matter

Must've convinced him to come back.

[Spiritwalker]

While we continue play 4-4-fooking-2 with 2 men wide and 2 men up we will continue to put an enormous workload on our centre midfield paring.

There will be times when they are not at their best or when the opposition close them down and we need to be able to deal with this, at the moment we are not.

To my mind it is simple, change the setup, play another man in midfield to ease their burden. Some suggest that this should be some kind of defensive 'hard man' but I disagree, we are defensively sound (look at the stats), winning possession isn't really the issue.

It is what we do with the ball that is the problem, when we are not playing well our defenders and centre midfield have few options and their passes go astray and they start playing the ball long, that is the issue.

We need to set up so that we have runners available to hit, players dropping off short, in fact all round mobility to play the ball quickly out of defence, NFP's conservative tactics on saturday were the opposite of that, Knockaert and Dyer played in deeper roles to make us more solid and our fullbacks rarely allowed to get forward, so no one for our defenders to play out to.

The result, long balls up to the front men, neither of whom are remotely suited to that tactic.

So, not rotation but reinforcement.........

Couldn't really argue with any of this.

[okie fox]

Should of kept Bamba and put him in there

But Babba's passing was terrible

[kingfox]

Must've convinced him to come back.

Nope hardly said a word, probably said can I have a picture please in a nervous quiet voice and that would be about it. Unless he liked the look of my arse, as I walked past, that my of convinced him to stay in Leicester. When I passed his car when that training session was on at the beginning of the season, he was putting stuff in the boot of it, and he looked up and stared at me for a good 5 seconds.

But Babba's passing was terrible

Never heard of Babba did you mean any of the following?

Boba Fett?

Bubba Watson?

[foxile5]

A change is necessary. I wonder if James has what it takes to run a game for ninety minutes, though.

[muzzy1981]

While we continue play 4-4-fooking-2 with 2 men wide and 2 men up we will continue to put an enormous workload on our centre midfield paring.

There will be times when they are not at their best or when the opposition close them down and we need to be able to deal with this, at the moment we are not.

To my mind it is simple, change the setup, play another man in midfield to ease their burden. Some suggest that this should be some kind of defensive 'hard man' but I disagree, we are defensively sound (look at the stats), winning possession isn't really the issue.

It is what we do with the ball that is the problem, when we are not playing well our defenders and centre midfield have few options and their passes go astray and they start playing the ball long, that is the issue.

We need to set up so that we have runners available to hit, players dropping off short, in fact all round mobility to play the ball quickly out of defence, NFP's conservative tactics on saturday were the opposite of that, Knockaert and Dyer played in deeper roles to make us more solid and our fullbacks rarely allowed to get forward, so no one for our defenders to play out to.

The result, long balls up to the front men, neither of whom are remotely suited to that tactic.

So, not rotation but reinforcement.........

I agree with all this. Under MON we would often play 451 for away games and got some fantastic results, notably away win against Liverpool, but if this was the case then I don't see why players like James/Marshall/Knock in CM/Wellens would feature as additional members of part of a middle three. Rigid systems and player choices will not help us grind out results against tough opposition.

[Andyb89476]

While we continue play 4-4-fooking-2 with 2 men wide and 2 men up we will continue to put an enormous workload on our centre midfield paring.

There will be times when they are not at their best or when the opposition close them down and we need to be able to deal with this, at the moment we are not.

To my mind it is simple, change the setup, play another man in midfield to ease their burden. Some suggest that this should be some kind of defensive 'hard man' but I disagree, we are defensively sound (look at the stats), winning possession isn't really the issue.

It is what we do with the ball that is the problem, when we are not playing well our defenders and centre midfield have few options and their passes go astray and they start playing the ball long, that is the issue.

We need to set up so that we have runners available to hit, players dropping off short, in fact all round mobility to play the ball quickly out of defence, NFP's conservative tactics on saturday were the opposite of that, Knockaert and Dyer played in deeper roles to make us more solid and our fullbacks rarely allowed to get forward, so no one for our defenders to play out to.

The result, long balls up to the front men, neither of whom are remotely suited to that tactic.

So, not rotation but reinforcement.........

completley agree with this, Im sure NP hasnt got a plan B for when we are backs against the wall example: Leeds, Millwall, Palace.....Id like to see a 4-2-3-1 with Nuge up front on his own, Knocky playing down the centre of the 3 with Marshall and Dyer either side, drinky and king making up the 2 behind them. Jus for something different, that would give us our 3 most creative players a chance to show what they can do together. 4-4-2 with Vardy and Nuge jus isnt cutting it, i admire Vardy as hes a hard worker but, he goes missing and looks out his depth at times, hes blatantly not confident atm, not hitting the ball first time (shifting to his stronger right foot). IMO Knocky is wasted on the wings, he seems to be the only player who is a step ahead in games for the killer ball to play into our forwards, crosses and long balls to our front two are jus a waste as that is neithers game....

[kingfox]

completley agree with this, Im sure NP hasnt got a plan B for when we are backs against the wall example: Leeds, Millwall, Palace.....Id like to see a 4-2-3-1 with Nuge up front on his own, Knocky playing down the centre of the 3 with Marshall and Dyer either side, drinky and king making up the 2 behind them. Jus for something different, that would give us our 3 most creative players a chance to show what they can do together. 4-4-2 with Vardy and Nuge jus isnt cutting it, i admire Vardy as hes a hard worker but, he goes missing and looks out his depth at times, hes blatantly not confident atm, not hitting the ball first time (shifting to his stronger right foot). IMO Knocky is wasted on the wings, he seems to be the only player who is a step ahead in games for the killer ball to play into our forwards, crosses and long balls to our front two are jus a waste as that is neithers game....

I would rather go with a 4-3-1-2. We usually struggle with one up front, especially when we decided to go 4-3-3, then it turns into a frustrating 4-5-1. You got to think of January now, and what positions Pearson will buy in. I doubt if he buys 1 or 2 strikers we won't go 4-2-3-1.

For the games remaining in December, I would continue of playing a flat 4-4-2, at home we have played a flat 4-4-2 for all our games and it has worked in all of them apart from one being Palace. To me Cardiff don't have midfielders of Crystal Palace's size and stature. They may have better quality, but Drinkwater and King are capable of matching them. Same with Hull they are very similar to us, in that game it all depends if David Meyler starts, if he does then it might be ideal of putting three in midfield. While Burnley I would definitely play a 4-4-2 away from home, the only problem will come from the wings and Austin.

[marbelladave]

I would rather go with a 4-3-1-2. We usually struggle with one up front, especially when we decided to go 4-3-3, then it turns into a frustrating 4-5-1. You got to think of January now, and what positions Pearson will buy in. I doubt if he buys 1 or 2 strikers we won't go 4-2-3-1.

For the games remaining in December, I would continue of playing a flat 4-4-2, at home we have played a flat 4-4-2 for all our games and it has worked in all of them apart from one being Palace. To me Cardiff don't have midfielders of Crystal Palace's size and stature. They may have better quality, but Drinkwater and King are capable of matching them. Same with Hull they are very similar to us, in that game it all depends if David Meyler starts, if he does then it might be ideal of putting three in midfield. While Burnley I would definitely play a 4-4-2 away from home, the only problem will come from the wings and Austin.

I have no real issue with us playing 4-4-2, just the way NFP plays it.......

When we play well we have runners from fullback, the wide men, particularly Knockaert coming inside and short to pick up the ball from our centre backs and our centre mids and, when he plays, Waghorn dropping off to link up play. This works well in the main.

However NFP is a very conservative manager, he likes Knockaert to stay wide and cover his fullback, which takes one option away as we try to play the ball out of defence, then away from home our full backs seen to have less licence to get forward (very much the case against Millwall) and with Waghorn not playing we suddenly have no options at all.......

By playing so conservatively, in an attempt to be more 'solid', we actually force ourselves into giving away possession as our only option much of the time is the long ball, useless for our strikers.

And no, the answer is not a big man to hold up play or some sort of defensive heavyweight in midfield. That really goes against everything we have done right this season and will simply move us backwards.

We need to be more attacking, not less, and we need more flexibility from our front 4 and if that means changing the formation or going with one man up, then so be it.........

[muzzy1981]

Rare but I keep finding myself agreeing on here today. Marbella Dave spot-on, particularly a defensive heavyweight defensive midfielder who will slow down play not being the answer. Also I agree Waghorns excellent hold-up play has been critical to some of our more recent successes. I don't think Vardy and Nuge are the best combo neither come deep to hold up play.

[kingfox]

I have no real issue with us playing 4-4-2, just the way NFP plays it.......

When we play well we have runners from fullback, the wide men, particularly Knockaert coming inside and short to pick up the ball from our centre backs and our centre mids and, when he plays, Waghorn dropping off to link up play. This works well in the main.

However NFP is a very conservative manager, he likes Knockaert to stay wide and cover his fullback, which takes one option away as we try to play the ball out of defence, then away from home our full backs seen to have less licence to get forward (very much the case against Millwall) and with Waghorn not playing we suddenly have no options at all.......

By playing so conservatively, in an attempt to be more 'solid', we actually force ourselves into giving away possession as our only option much of the time is the long ball, useless for our strikers.

And no, the answer is not a big man to hold up play or some sort of defensive heavyweight in midfield. That really goes against everything we have done right this season and will simply move us backwards.

We need to be more attacking, not less, and we need more flexibility from our front 4 and if that means changing the formation or going with one man up, then so be it.........

It's the one up front bit that I don't agree with, it's a very frustrating formation and it get's teams nowhere. May have done the trick with West Ham last season, but they had Nolan and Vaz Te scoring from midfield on a consistent basis. I watched West Ham at the weekend and lumping it up to Carlton Cole was boring and ineffective.

Nugent and Waghorn are more than capable of holding the ball up, but if you sometimes result to hoofing it, it will be hard for Nugent and Waghorn to chase and then the opposition will get the ball back and start all over again. Nugent has been up on his own before if I record correctly, and he struggled to get in the game. I would always prefer two up front, more chance of scoring goals, and more chance of playing as a team, keeping the ball and being more attacking.

I would like this defensive midfielder, but only to be used in some games, if you want a better midfielder who can add more quality but also big in size, then someone like Ross Barkley is our man. He isn't a defensive midfielder, he is an all round midfielder, 6ft3 can tackle, can pass and can score goals. He was brilliant for Wednesday in his loan spell with them. Just depends if Everton are willing to loan him out again. I would be keen to see this formation in some games, from January onwards.

Schmeichel

De Laet - Whitbread - Morgan - Konchesky

James - Drinkwater - King

Knockaert/Marshall

Nugent - Waghorn

But take out James or King and maybe Waghorn if we get new signings in those areas.

[marbelladave]

Kingfox.......

All fair comment, not the way I would like to see us go formation wise but who knows.........

I do not see that 'hoofing' the ball forward in any circumstances will get us anywhere, I just want to see us bring the ball out of defence with pace and purpose and to do that we need plenty of players looking to receive the ball.

It is all about balance, if we play an attacking mid in front of King and Drinkwater then they can sit a little deeper, naturally giving the centre backs more cover, this allows the full backs to get forward more effectively (as they were only a few weeks ago) which in turn allows the wide men to come inside and support the (lone) striker.

This requires a big turnaround from NFP, giving Knockaert or Marshall the responsibility to play the attacking midfield role, picking front players, 2 from Dyer, Vardy and Waghorn, in the wide positions and of course releasing the full backs.

This is actually not that different from the way we have played on occasion but it would be interesting to see us set up like this from the outset, shit we might even try playing this way in training.......

[kingfox]

Kingfox.......

All fair comment, not the way I would like to see us go formation wise but who knows.........

I do not see that 'hoofing' the ball forward in any circumstances will get us anywhere, I just want to see us bring the ball out of defence with pace and purpose and to do that we need plenty of players looking to receive the ball.

It is all about balance, if we play an attacking mid in front of King and Drinkwater then they can sit a little deeper, naturally giving the centre backs more cover, this allows the full backs to get forward more effectively (as they were only a few weeks ago) which in turn allows the wide men to come inside and support the (lone) striker.

This requires a big turnaround from NFP, giving Knockaert or Marshall the responsibility to play the attacking midfield role, picking front players, 2 from Dyer, Vardy and Waghorn, in the wide positions and of course releasing the full backs.

This is actually not that different from the way we have played on occasion but it would be interesting to see us set up like this from the outset, shit we might even try playing this way in training.......

So would it be 1 or 3 up front?

So 4-2-1-3

OR

4-2-3-1

[marbelladave]

So would it be 1 or 3 up front?

So 4-2-1-3

OR

4-2-3-1

Both of course....... :xmastongue:

It's about balance and flexibility, you reinforce success by building on what is working and making it better. You have 4 (predominantly) attacking players, give them the flexibility to attack where the opposition is the weakest.

What you do not do is try and reinforce failure, hitting it long to Nugent, Waghorn or Vardey is not working, the answer is not to put a big man up front, the answer is stop hittling long balls and set up to play through midfield with the ball on the deck........

[kingfox]

Both of course....... :xmastongue:

It's about balance and flexibility, you reinforce success by building on what is working and making it better. You have 4 (predominantly) attacking players, give them the flexibility to attack where the opposition is the weakest.

What you do not do is try and reinforce failure, hitting it long to Nugent, Waghorn or Vardey is not working, the answer is not to put a big man up front, the answer is stop hittling long balls and set up to play through midfield with the ball on the deck........

I am happy with a passing game, we have dominated most of our home games this season, we just need to keep the ball better especially away from home. It's when some people think one up front may work, and to me I don't think it will. It is a frustrating way of playing, and Nugent, Waghorn and Vardy would come incredibly frustrated, we have tried it a couple of times before, and Nugent did absolutely nothing.

We need an extra midfielder though, all teams around us have 5-6 central midfielders, we only have three, yet people were saying with the six we had last season it was too many and would cause disruption. Well it's working with Cardiff, Middlesbrough, Hull and Crystal P. We can't rely on Drinkwater, King and James all the time, especially in certain games, where you know they will get bossed and out played.

Flat 4-4-2 or a 4-3-1-2 is the formations we should play, 4-3-1-2 against the more physical sides in the division pack the midfield, and let either Knockaert and Marshall roam behind the strikers, we tried it towards the end of last season with Marshall playing in behind, and it was some of the best football I have seen us play in a long time, it works so why not try it again

[marbelladave]

I am happy with a passing game, we have dominated most of our home games this season, we just need to keep the ball better especially away from home. It's when some people think one up front may work, and to me I don't think it will. It is a frustrating way of playing, and Nugent, Waghorn and Vardy would come incredibly frustrated, we have tried it a couple of times before, and Nugent did absolutely nothing.

We need an extra midfielder though, all teams around us have 5-6 central midfielders, we only have three, yet people were saying with the six we had last season it was too many and would cause disruption. Well it's working with Cardiff, Middlesbrough, Hull and Crystal P. We can't rely on Drinkwater, King and James all the time, especially in certain games, where you know they will get bossed and out played.

Flat 4-4-2 or a 4-3-1-2 is the formations we should play, 4-3-1-2 against the more physical sides in the division pack the midfield, and let either Knockaert and Marshall roam behind the strikers, we tried it towards the end of last season with Marshall playing in behind, and it was some of the best football I have seen us play in a long time, it works so why not try it again

Might well work, might not........

What I want to see is for us to get away from the 'fixed' notion that we have to have 2 men up or 2 men wide or whatever.

You are insisting on playing with 2 men up and that limits our options straight away, get our best players on the ball and see where it takes us, 1 up, 2 up, it doesn't really matter if we get forward in numbers and play to our strengths.

[Corky]

The flexibility is key, we've looked at our best when Knockaert was given more of a license to play or Waghorn dropped in to offer the midfield a short pass.

This, in turn, allowed Dyer the opportunity to run hard at the defences.

[Captain...]

It's great that you all know how to manage our team better than Pearson.

Just one question, what if it doesn't work? What if we change the formation and lose the next 4 games?

What will be going wrong then?

If it was as simple as playing 4231 then everyone would be doing it. There is absolutely no guarantee that changing formation or getting a tough tackling centre mid would make any difference, and at the moment we are moving along nicely and keeping pace with the leaders wholesale changes are just as likely to as improve them as de-rail them.

[daddylonglegs]

danns needs to come back

[Corky]

Do we actually know how well he is doing for Bristol City?

I mean, would he come back in sparkling form?

[marbelladave]

It's great that you all know how to manage our team better than Pearson.

Just one question, what if it doesn't work? What if we change the formation and lose the next 4 games?

What will be going wrong then?

If it was as simple as playing 4231 then everyone would be doing it. There is absolutely no guarantee that changing formation or getting a tough tackling centre mid would make any difference, and at the moment we are moving along nicely and keeping pace with the leaders wholesale changes are just as likely to as improve them as de-rail them.

We have all seen how well we can play when we things are going well and there is little there to change, we simply need to to give ourselves the chance to play that well more regularly........

You can of course simply say that we are not good enough and we need to bring in better players but I do not agree with that at all, I just find that all a bit negative.

I think, overall, we are doing pretty well with a new, young side and all I want to see is them develop and push the Club forward, you can not stand still in football, you need to try different things, play in a different way or you become predictable and a known quantity.

Recent results suggest that this is happening to us, it is not unreasonable for the fans to want the manager to change the way we are playing and freshen things up....... :xmaswink:

[Andyb89476]

It's great that you all know how to manage our team better than Pearson.

Just one question, what if it doesn't work? What if we change the formation and lose the next 4 games?

What will be going wrong then?

If it was as simple as playing 4231 then everyone would be doing it. There is absolutely no guarantee that changing formation or getting a tough tackling centre mid would make any difference, and at the moment we are moving along nicely and keeping pace with the leaders wholesale changes are just as likely to as improve them as de-rail them.

I agree with what you say, but a tactical switch to see if we can be more aggressive in the final third of the field wouldn't hurt. (see my earlier post pg3) Im not in the opinion of a tough tackling CM, IMO it Wundt improve the quality we hav at the club, we do however could do with a wiser head who can distribute the ball and change a game when we are struggling to break down teams, someone like Izzet, (hard to find I know) ....

[_Fatboyslow_]

Flat 4-4-2 or a 4-3-1-2 is the formations we should play, 4-3-1-2 against the more physical sides in the division pack the midfield, and let either Knockaert and Marshall roam behind the strikers, we tried it towards the end of last season with Marshall playing in behind, and it was some of the best football I have seen us play in a long time, it works so why not try it again

I like this approach, even if it means pushing dyer up front...... No bugger it use the French Kid

It would also be intresting to try Waghorn in midfield which when he first came to the club looked his natural position.

[The People's Hero]

I bet this rotation thing is just some spin put out by Topp.

OLE!