England. Indepedence

[Deucalion]

How is this any different from Wales constantly being bailed out by England and losing some autonomy ? I don't get it .

It's just swapping one big ruler for a bigger one

I think history makes a big difference. There is historic animosity about English rule.

This isn't the only difference though. While the EU wants certain standards maintained in certain areas, anything which doesn't effect the whole of the EU or isn't a big moral issue, such as Global Warming and the environment, is down to individual states to decide.

A cornerstone of the EU is subsidiarity, which means each decision should be made at the lowest relevant level. This goes so far as to say that England would be better off if government was regionalised. This is unlikely to happen as the UK is traditionally very London centric.

I think a small state such as Wales would have far more freedom to do as it wished as an independent state within the EU than under any devolved government. There would be a price to pay in regards to some things being standardised with the rest of the EU but it would gain from security of membership of a bigger whole and guaranteed investment as part of the 'Periphery of Europe' rather than the 'Core of Europe.'

[MooseBreath]

How would Wales make money though? Without London they basically have no economy whatsoever.

[Zingari]

I think history makes a big difference. There is historic animosity about English rule.

This isn't the only difference though. While the EU wants certain standards maintained in certain areas, anything which doesn't effect the whole of the EU or isn't a big moral issue, such as Global Warming and the environment, is down to individual states to decide.

A cornerstone of the EU is subsidiarity, which means each decision should be made at the lowest relevant level. This goes so far as to say that England would be better off if government was regionalised. This is unlikely to happen as the UK is traditionally very London centric.

I think a small state such as Wales would have far more freedom to do as it wished as an independent state within the EU than under any devolved government. There would be a price to pay in regards to some things being standardised with the rest of the EU but it would gain from security of membership of a bigger whole and guaranteed investment as part of the 'Periphery of Europe' rather than the 'Core of Europe.'

Good points Deucalion But I still think any difference is merely illusory .

Not sure why your personal situation has taken a downward turn , but good luck anyway

[Deucalion]

I'm kind of dominating this thread at the minute but I want to make one more point about the EU before I go shopping with the Missus. (Damn Sky!)

The phrase 'ruled by Brussels' implies that there is a strange, faceless political entity which is making decisions for us. This is not true.

Important decisions are make in the Council of Ministers, which is a meeting of the relevant ministers from the member states. Therefore, if an issue to be debated involves roads, all the transport ministers from the member states would get together and decide the policy. Therefore, real power within the EU resides with the national governments elected by the people of those countries.

[Deucalion]

Good points Deucalion But I still think any difference is merely illusory .

Not sure why your personal situation has taken a downward turn , but good luck anyway

My personal circumstances are fine!

I was making a point about someone who considers himself 'well off' finding it funny that someone else has fallen on hard times.

But thank you for your concern. It makes you a decent human being to my way of thinking.

[Zingari]

I'm kind of dominating this thread at the minute but I want to make one more point about the EU before I go shopping with the Missus. (Damn Sky!)

The phrase 'ruled by Brussels' implies that there is a strange, faceless political entity which is making decisions for us. This is not true.

Important decisions are make in the Council of Ministers, which is a meeting of the relevant ministers from the member states. Therefore, if an issue to be debated involves roads, all the transport ministers from the member states would get together and decide the policy. Therefore, real power within the EU resides with the national governments elected by the people of those countries.

The phrase "ruled by London " meant exactly the same

[Tielemans63]

Back to the OP!

If England was to be independent I'd love to know what your solution for NI is!?

Just give it back to Ireland eh? That old chestnut!

[Webbo]

Back to the OP!

If England was to be independent I'd love to know what your solution for NI is!?

Just give it back to Ireland eh? That old chestnut!

Or let NI become independent too.

[Finnegan]

How would Wales make money though? Without London they basically have no economy whatsoever.

Natural resources and tourism I suppose. Ireland copes, Croatia copes, Norway copes. Hell, Estonia is even smaller than Wales.

Plenty of countries without a London get by and they're clearly not "third world."

Wales would undoubtedly be worse off though, without England, certainly. Which is, like I said, why we're not likely to ever vote for complete independence unless we have to.

[Guest Bilo]

Only a fool would vote for what amounts to the Balkanisation of the United Kingdom.

I can't believe any Scot other than Alex Salmond truly believes Scotland would be more prosperous as an independent republic. The Scottish public has gotten used to luxuries such as free prescriptions and university education, luxuries that have been heavily subsidised by Westminster.

The Scottish people want good public services, but the tax burden upon them would skyrocket without English money and the North Sea oil and gas runs low. That's assuming they could get full control of that resource, which is unlikely.

I'll discount Wales because I doubt even the most fervent Welsh nationalist is calling for full independence. It's fair to say though that with small populations, few natural resources and a small industrial base that both nations would be akin to the Baltic states or Cyprus. This would mean that they would be massively dependent on EU subsidy and arguably less 'free' than they are as part of a dominant British economy within the EU.

England as an independent nation would in all likelihood fare better than either Scotland or Wales, but it is again worth remembering that if the General Election counted only English votes, there'd have been only marginal victories for Labour in 1997 and 2001, and we'd have been living under a clear Tory majority since 2005. In other words; if you don't like the policies of the current government, don't expect them to be any better in an independent England.

There's also the fact that China is fast becoming a superpower on par with the US and Europe as a whole is in danger of being left behind. Do you really think we'd be better as three small, independent states in the global marketplace? Or are we better off as a major player in a reformed EU that can pool its resources in order to properly compete in a cut-throat marketplace?

[Webbo]

There's also the fact that China is fast becoming a superpower on par with the US and Europe as a whole is in danger of being left behind. Do you really think we'd be better as three small, independent states in the global marketplace? Or are we better off as a major player in a reformed EU that can pool its resources in order to properly compete in a cut-throat marketplace?

But the EU aren't competing and they're not likely to reform.

As for Scotland it could certainly survive as an independent nation, slightly worse off probably but some may think that's a price worth paying.

[Guest Bilo]

Scotland could survive but they'd struggle to run the country to the same standards as they see as part of the UK.

The NHS is going to be ruinously expensive as will the education system. The only way they could achieve running these to the same high standards is through a large tax burden or making cuts that would put Tory cuts here into a cocked hat.

I'm sure they'd save money on defence, seeing as the SNP have already said that Scotland would be neutral, but it's doubtful that this would save enough money for Scotland to live in the style it has become accustomed to without having to make some very tough decisions.

[Saxondale]

It no so much a question of independence but of devolved powers.

The Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly represent extra layers of (unfeasibly expensive) administration inserted in between central and local government. They exist, primarily, to satisfy the nationalist desires of the respective regions / principalities / whatever you want to call them.

It is worth noting that the idea of powerful regional assemblies and weaker national governments are part of the model of a 'United States of Europe', the main proponent of which is the influential former French president and MEP Valéry Giscard d'Estaing. This model envisions a strong central European government and influential regional assemblies, but with national governments possessing limited powers.

We had at least one referendum on English regional assemblies a few years ago, which was voted against.

The main issue is that, while Wales and Scotland have their regional assemblies while England has none, they have equal representation in Westminster. It's just all wrong - and very expensive at that.

[Zingari]

The bloke over the back from me has got a west highland terrier that won't shut the fook up .

If Scotland gets independence will I be able to insist the little sod gets deported back ?

[Webbo]

I had to laugh at a Scotsman on the Jeremy Vine show this week. He was ranting on about how hated the Tories are in Scotland. He said something like" this bedroom tax is terrible, mind you I can see why they're doing it. It's disgusting that they're doing it, but it is a good idea."

[Deucalion]

The phrase "ruled by London " meant exactly the same

Good point! Although I would say that rule from Brussels would be kinder to regional differences than centralised rule from London.

Back to the OP!

If England was to be independent I'd love to know what your solution for NI is!?

Just give it back to Ireland eh? That old chestnut!

We could just let the Protestant majority rule NI.

That old chestnut !!

But the EU aren't competing and they're not likely to reform.

]

By reform, I suspect you mean go backwards. The fact China is backwards in terms of labour laws is why it is so competitive. As it develops and people get better off, they will demand more rights and China's advantage will diminish. I suspect a trade block with 497 million consumers will be ok.

How would Wales make money though? Without London they basically have no economy whatsoever.

There's nothing wrong with London that couldn't be sorted out with 40 megatons of plutonium!

[The Doctor]

But the EU aren't competing and they're not likely to reform.

As for Scotland it could certainly survive as an independent nation, slightly worse off probably but some may think that's a price worth paying.

Not really - a lot of our money comes from the oil and gas, you can't run as a lone country when your economy would be based on a fast depleting resource.

[Webbo]

By reform, I suspect you mean go backwards. The fact China is backwards in terms of labour laws is why it is so competitive. As it develops and people get better off, they will demand more rights and China's advantage will diminish.

And how long will that take?

Our/the EU's economy is going backwards. Workers rights are no use to anyone if you're not working.

[Webbo]

Not really - a lot of our money comes from the oil and gas, you can't run as a lone country when your economy would be based on a fast depleting resource.

There's still a few years of oil and gas left and as the price goes up new fields will become more viable. The Whisky industry is also one of the UK's biggest exporters, stick on a bit of tourism and the financial centre Scotland could get by.

[Deucalion]

And how long will that take?

Our/the EU's economy is going backwards. Workers rights are no use to anyone if you're not working.

I think China is fast developing a middle class, so probably not that long. The internet and Twitter will probably speed things up.

The EU may have to get used to the idea of Chinese dominance. But will this be any worse than US dominance? Chinese foreign policy seems, on the whole, a lot more sympathetic than European imperialism or US hegemony. For instance, China is investing massively in Africa to the benefit of the local population. I suppose they will want their influence in Africa, but I doubt they will march the troops in.

Best thing is to wait for recovery in Europe and prepare for the world being different on the other side.

We will cope.

[Guest Bilo]

It's worth remembering as well that the SNP are Eurocentric. The chances are that they'd adopt the Euro and possibly the associated pitfalls, especially considering the fact that they'd be an EU subsidiary in all but name.

As for China, there's already a growing middle class there who will demand more rights as time goes on. I wouldn't go as far as saying the bubble will burst, but the growth is likely to lose pace over the next few years.

[Webbo]

I think China is fast developing a middle class, so probably not that long. The internet and Twitter will probably speed things up.

The EU may have to get used to the idea of Chinese dominance. But will this be any worse than US dominance? Chinese foreign policy seems, on the whole, a lot more sympathetic than European imperialism or US hegemony. For instance, China is investing massively in Africa to the benefit of the local population. I suppose they will want their influence in Africa, but I doubt they will march the troops in.

Best thing is to wait for recovery in Europe and prepare for the world being different on the other side.

We will cope.

To the benefit of the local despots. They're treating the locals worse than we did 100 years ago.

How anyone can defend the EU when it's bankrupted Greece & Cyprus with Italy, Spain, Ireland and Slovenia not far behind. It takes money directly out of peoples bank accounts. When it's appointed unelected Govts in Greece and Italy and when it ignores referendums until it gets the result it wants.

It's an incompetent, undemocratic, corrupt disgrace

[Saxondale]

It's worth remembering as well that the SNP are Eurocentric. The chances are that they'd adopt the Euro and possibly the associated pitfalls, especially considering the fact that they'd be an EU subsidiary in all but name.

For this reason:

It is worth noting that the idea of powerful regional assemblies and weaker national governments are part of the model of a 'United States of Europe', the main proponent of which is the influential former French president and MEP Valéry Giscard d'Estaing. This model envisions a strong central European government and influential regional assemblies, but with national governments possessing limited powers.

They know very well that they could only exist 'independently' as part of this model.

[leicsmac]

To the benefit of the local despots. They're treating the locals worse than we did 100 years ago.

How anyone can defend the EU when it's bankrupted Greece & Cyprus with Italy, Spain, Ireland and Slovenia not far behind. It takes money directly out of peoples bank accounts. When it's appointed unelected Govts in Greece and Italy and when it ignores referendums until it gets the result it wants.

It's an incompetent, undemocratic, corrupt disgrace

China is engaging in empire expansionism, but by using economics, not guns. But how do you suggest the rest of the world stop that? Big economies now have global effects.

The UK can no longer pretend that it can stand alone from an economic standpoint. We can't just close our eyes and pretend what's going on in the rest of the world isn't happening and doesn't affect us. And as economics and politics seem inextricably linked these days...

[Saxondale]

And as economics and politics seem inextricably linked these days...

You say that as if it's not always been the case?