Guest MattP Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 They obviously see their reason as legitimate. The British public may not hear the reasons though as we are given reasons why they are wrong. Maybe the ones leaving are being turned to them by the way they are portrayed. If a young person is being subjected to abuse (verbal) from the media and the public and a recruiter tells them they can have things better they may be persuaded..It does not make them wrong. There is some truth in the saying 'One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.' Depends on the perspective.What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say.Whose freedoms are IS fighting for? When they tie down a Yazidi or a Christian mother and baby and chop both of their heads off, just who are they fighting to protect? A quite sickening defence of evil even for you. Shame on you Ken, please read up on this.
Merging Cultures Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 They obviously see their reason as legitimate. The British public may not hear the reasons though as we are given reasons why they are wrong. Maybe the ones leaving are being turned to them by the way they are portrayed. If a young person is being subjected to abuse (verbal) from the media and the public and a recruiter tells them they can have things better they may be persuaded..It does not make them wrong. There is some truth in the saying 'One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.' Depends on the perspective. I agree with this. "We only know what we know". We can't necessarily blame the ordinary members of ISIS. I do blame their leaders. I watched a 'Vice' video about ISIS, they were indoctrinating little kids. They will have been taught that murder is justified, and that their cause is true. We have been indoctrinated in our own way, and that means that we also see some wars as justified. It makes it easier to see bombs falling thousands of feet, rather than a beheading. Those who are joining from the West, are unusual though.
Rincewind Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 There can be many reasons why a young person would turn to them. Not every child has a happy home life or school life. Some are bullied abused and can be driven to things a happy child would not do. It does not have to be specific to Muslim youngsters but I assumed they were the ones being discussed. Without knowiing the full background of the ones involved it is hard to say why they join.
Guest MattP Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 What freedoms could it even be argued are IS trying to protect?
Merging Cultures Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 What freedoms could it even be argued are IS trying to protect? I guess it is their freedom to live under Sharia law and to remove the international borders that were implemented after WW1.
Rincewind Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 No idea. I have not seen their manifesto. Like you I am a Westerner so our ideas of freedom will be different to theirs although we may not agree or understand them..
Webbo Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 I guess it is their freedom to live under Sharia law and to remove the international borders that were implemented after WW1. And the freedom to behead people of different faiths.
Guest MattP Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 I guess it is their freedom to live under Sharia law and to remove the international borders that were implemented after WW1. If it was about that then why the advances? They already have more than enough land and wealth to live in what's effectively an Islamic state. Trying to force it onto the rest of Iraq and Syria cannot be argued as fighting for a freedom to live under it. I find this very uncomfortable giving any sort of legitimacy or reasoning for these sort of people. A group of people behaved like this in the 1930's and they should be treated exactly the same.
Guest MattP Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 No idea. I have not seen their manifesto. Like you I am a Westerner so our ideas of freedom will be different to theirs although we may not agree or understand them.. Do you not think you should do a bit of research on them Ken before commenting then? Plenty of IS produced film and propaganda out there to hear them tell you what they are about.
Harry - LCFC Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 No idea. I have not seen their manifesto. Like you I am a Westerner so our ideas of freedom will be different to theirs although we may not agree or understand them.. They simply aren't a freedom oriented group. They seek to control people's lives based on their view of "what God wants." This isn't about us in the West not 'understanding' them. We know exactly what they're about and have made our conclusion based on it. Maybe I'm getting the wrong of the stick but you seem to be indicating we're being prejudice in making our judgements, that isn't the case it all.
JmorsonLCFC Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 Well I'd imagine the original defectors did so due to seeing the fight against Assad as legitimate, those of a sunni Muslim persuasion especially. I would be absolutely astonished if there was a single person who had gone out there who did it due the way Muslims are portrayed, why would decide to join an Islamist group in protest at that? It makes no sense. How do you get looked at like a second rate citizen? No I don't think they are doing it for banter I think it's pretty obvious that a caliphate across the levant has always been the intention of the group, this group isn't a new organisation they have been around for years and had many of their sympathisers in the Al Nusra beforehand. I'd like to expand on what legitimate reasons you think they have for executing anyone who isn't a sunni Muslim? And what are our legitimate reasons for bombing iraq 3 times in the last 25 years? Why werent they ousted before? Why does this still go on? Look at the root of the problem, and it isn't in Iraq. Do you think we would bomb them if they didn't have oil? Saudi Arabia execute people daily, why dont we do anything about it? Because we have ties with the saudis. It's blatent that people are defecting because they arent happy with how theyre being allowed to express their beliefs freely and are constantly discriminated, you might not want to hear that but it's obvious.
JmorsonLCFC Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 There can be many reasons why a young person would turn to them. Not every child has a happy home life or school life. Some are bullied abused and can be driven to things a happy child would not do. It does not have to be specific to Muslim youngsters but I assumed they were the ones being discussed. Without knowiing the full background of the ones involved it is hard to say why they join. again great post
Merging Cultures Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 If it was about that then why the advances? They already have more than enough land and wealth to live in what's effectively an Islamic state. Trying to force it onto the rest of Iraq and Syria cannot be argued as fighting for a freedom to live under it. I find this very uncomfortable giving any sort of legitimacy or reasoning for these sort of people. A group of people behaved like this in the 1930's and they should be treated exactly the same. I believe that is related to the border issue, which seems to me to be a rejection of 'western' imposed restrictions. Personally, I agree they should be stopped. They shouldn't be forcing Sharia law on others. If they want to live under Sharia law, then that's fine, but do not kill others for wanting to live another way. If their interpretation of Sharia law was so good, then borders wouldn't matter anyway, People would adopt it locally, peacefully.
Rincewind Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 I'm not saying that.Yes Matt is right maybe I should do more research but I have tried to avoid making comments for or against. I said I do not know why IS do what they do and as others have more knowledge I am inclined to go with that until I am convinced otherwise but I am not in a vulnerable position of being persuaded to join IS as I have a reasonable life as a Westerner. I did see somewhere that since the new campaign against IS they have gained support from some moderate states and groups.
Webbo Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 It's blatent that people are defecting because they arent happy with how theyre being allowed to express their beliefs freely and are constantly discriminated, you might not want to hear that but it's obvious. How are they not being allowed to express their beliefs here? In what way are Muslims stopped from worshipping in any way they want? Compare that to the way Isis is running their patch. Beheading Christians,yazidis and Shi'ites. I this is not a fashionable point of view but we're not always the bad guys.
Guest MattP Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 And what are our legitimate reasons for bombing iraq 3 times in the last 25 years? Why werent they ousted before? Why does this still go on? Look at the root of the problem, and it isn't in Iraq. Do you think we would bomb them if they didn't have oil? Saudi Arabia execute people daily, why dont we do anything about it? Because we have ties with the saudis. It's blatent that people are defecting because they arent happy with how theyre being allowed to express their beliefs freely and are constantly discriminated, you might not want to hear that but it's obvious. The Iraq war ten years ago was wrong but let's not pretend that this is anything to do with it, the yanks were long out of Iraq by the time Is popped up there and were never in Syria. How on earth can you argue people here don't get a chance to express their beliefs freely? We have prayer rooms in the workplace, more mosques than any other places of worship apart from Christianity, we've turned a blind eye to those who want to settle disputes via Sharia, we turn a blind eye to bigamy, wherever I had an event at work despite it only being about 5% of the workforce we ordered halal food, our banks have gone out their way to offer Islamic accounts. We've absolutely bent over backwards to accommodate Islam in Britain and even tolerated some of the very uncomfortable aspects of it to please the minority who want to follow what most preachers tell us is an extreme version of it. What do you mean when you say they can't practice it freely? Any evidence this is a reason for defections as in the documents and evidence I've read I can't find a single shread of evidence to support this claim.
Guest MattP Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 As for Saudi Arabia. We don't interfere in a nation states laws. If they went into a neighbouring country and started executing defenceless people on the basis of religion we would be doing something.
Merging Cultures Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 How are they not being allowed to express their beliefs here? In what way are Muslims stopped from worshipping in any way they want? Compare that to the way Isis is running their patch. Beheading Christians,yazidis and Shi'ites. I this is not a fashionable point of view but we're not always the bad guys. Agreed, and I believe communities can have their own dispute resolution to deal with straying from religious teachings (within the host countries legal framework of course, i.e. no stoning or cutting off of hands, or not reporting illegal activity, which applies to Sharia and old testament teaching) .
Guest MattP Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 I'm not saying that.Yes Matt is right maybe I should do more research but I have tried to avoid making comments for or against.. How's that working out for you?
Merging Cultures Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 And the freedom to behead people of different faiths. I am not agreeing with it!
JmorsonLCFC Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 How are they not being allowed to express their beliefs here? In what way are Muslims stopped from worshipping in any way they want? Compare that to the way Isis is running their patch. Beheading Christians,yazidis and Shi'ites. I this is not a fashionable point of view but we're not always the bad guys. 'were not always the bad guys' ****inhell it has gone tits up, what gives us the right to bomb a country which is clearly not a threat! Let's not forget we pulled out of iraq not long ago... maybe they kill westerners because westerners bombs their reletives? https://www.iraqbodycount.org/ them figures in the website above are sickening How many British die a year in england due to terrorist attacks? Now how many iraqi civilians die each year due to air strikes? And you're saying you dont know why they're going mad
JmorsonLCFC Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 Whats the bigger threat. Isis to us. Or Isreal to Palestine, ask yourself that and then try and justify why we're bothered about one and not the other.
The Doctor Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 regardless of how many, why are they doing it? Maybe it might have something to do with the way we portray muslims in the media? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that everywhere they go in this country they get looked at like a second rate citizen. So what do you think ISIS actually are then?? Are they just kicking off for banter or do they have a ligitimate reason? No - it's down to radicalisation of young people by a few imams from the more extremist branches of Islam, not because 1 paper which has pretty much become a byword for nonsense in the minds of most says a few stupid things. I certainly don't see these claims of them being second rate citizens - yes, some people don't like their beliefs but that doesn't make them a second class citizen.
JmorsonLCFC Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 The Iraq war ten years ago was wrong but let's not pretend that this is anything to do with it, the yanks were long out of Iraq by the time Is popped up there and were never in Syria. How on earth can you argue people here don't get a chance to express their beliefs freely? We have prayer rooms in the workplace, more mosques than any other places of worship apart from Christianity, we've turned a blind eye to those who want to settle disputes via Sharia, we turn a blind eye to bigamy, wherever I had an event at work despite it only being about 5% of the workforce we ordered halal food, our banks have gone out their way to offer Islamic accounts. We've absolutely bent over backwards to accommodate Islam in Britain and even tolerated some of the very uncomfortable aspects of it to please the minority who want to follow what most preachers tell us is an extreme version of it. What do you mean when you say they can't practice it freely? Any evidence this is a reason for defections as in the documents and evidence I've read I can't find a single shread of evidence to support this claim. yes but everything you have listed has been criticised or shouted about in the media. You turn on any major news channel, read any major newspaper and they will have an article tarring muslims with the extremism brush. if this happened to you every day you, and the rest of your race would be pissed off. I know if I was in a country where I got looked at differently simply for the way i beleive in god, id like to think i'd rise against it...as would anyone in a state of oppression. What do you mean 'IS' popped up... they didn't come out of the ground, they are people you know, with different things to fight for than me and you. So what is your jsutification for going to another war in iraq? They've beheaded how many people?
The Doctor Posted 22 October 2014 Posted 22 October 2014 'were not always the bad guys' ****inhell it has gone tits up, what gives us the right to bomb a country which is clearly not a threat! Let's not forget we pulled out of iraq not long ago... maybe they kill westerners because westerners bombs their reletives? https://www.iraqbodycount.org/ them figures in the website above are sickening How many British die a year in england due to terrorist attacks? Now how many iraqi civilians die each year due to air strikes? And you're saying you dont know why they're going mad If we're talking about the current air strikes, what should we do instead - let hundreds of Kurds, Christians and yazidis be slaughtered? In terms of military force, us and America are two of the most powerful countries in the world, some would argue (quite rightly) we have a duty to protect those being subjected to such an abuse of human rights and to lend a hand to those who cannot defend themselves.
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