The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Strokes]

Thinks it's asylum seekers that get benefits, as they aren't eligible for work until processed and EU migrants flood unskilled positions.

[Buce]

Thinks it's asylum seekers that get benefits, as they aren't eligible for work until processed and EU migrants flood unskilled positions.

So they're causing floods now?

Immigrants Out!!!

[Strokes]

So they're causing floods now?

Immigrants Out!!!

Yeah and droughts they are proper naughty.

[Guest MattP]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-an-instinctive-supporter-of-brexit-says-former-advisor-steve-hilton-a7049391.html
 

David Cameron is an "instinctive Brexit supporter" and would be campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union if he was not Prime Minister, one of his closest friends in politics has claimed.

In remarks likely to infuriate Downing Street, Steve Hilton, Mr Cameron's former director of strategy and godfather to his late son, Ivan, said "it's who he is" but as Prime Minister he sees things from a different perspective.

"If he was a member of the public, or a backbench MP or a junior minister or even a cabinet minister, I'm certain that he would be for Leave. That's his whole instinct. That's who he is," Mr Hilton told The Times.

 

So to sum up this farce:

 

The Prime Minister and leader of remain would actually be campaigning for Brexit if it wasn't for his position.

The leader of the Labour Party who has campaigned for a leave for twenty years is supporting remain because of his position.

The leader of the leave campaign actually wants to remain but is pretending he doesn't because of what he wants as his next position.

 

If I didn't care so much I'd boycott this election, it's nothing but a farce being used for political careers. None of them really want this enough to have the guts to do it, they don't want the responsibility that would come with it, like a institutionlised prisoner who when offered his freedom he says he craves doesn't really want to take it.

 

By voting I feel like I'm condoning this futile exercise, apparantly the biggest decision in our history and the bookies think turnout will be around 55% - that pretty much sums it up.

[SMX11]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-an-instinctive-supporter-of-brexit-says-former-advisor-steve-hilton-a7049391.html

So to sum up this farce:

The Prime Minister and leader of remain would actually be campaigning for Brexit if it wasn't for his position.

The leader of the Labour Party who has campaigned for a leave for twenty years is supporting remain because of his position.

The leader of the leave campaign actually wants to remain but is pretending he doesn't because of what he wants as his next position.

If I didn't care so much I'd boycott this election, it's nothing but a farce being used for political careers. None of them really want this enough to have the guts to do it, they don't want the responsibility that would come with it, like a institutionlised prisoner who when offered his freedom he says he craves doesn't really want to take it.

By voting I feel like I'm condoning this futile exercise, apparantly the biggest decision in our history and the bookies think turnout will be around 55% - that pretty much sums it up.

I think this reinforces the Peter Hitchens position of that both main political parties need to be destroyed before this country can move forward. Starting with the Conservatives.

[johnny the fox]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2272195/The-town-thats-We-visit-town-countrys-biggest-influx-East-Europeans.html  I wonder how cameron would be voting if it was his constituency ?  then again it wouldn't be would it..

[Guest MattP]

I think this reinforces the Peter Hitchens position of that both main political parties need to be destroyed before this country can move forward. Starting with the Conservatives.

 

He's probably right, when one falls the other would go fairly quickly as well.

 

You barely meet anyone these days who votes for either of the main two parties for any other reason than to try and keep the other lot out.

[Rincewind]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-an-instinctive-supporter-of-brexit-says-former-advisor-steve-hilton-a7049391.html

 

 

So to sum up this farce:

 

The Prime Minister and leader of remain would actually be campaigning for Brexit if it wasn't for his position.

The leader of the Labour Party who has campaigned for a leave for twenty years is supporting remain because of his position.

The leader of the leave campaign actually wants to remain but is pretending he doesn't because of what he wants as his next position.

 

If I didn't care so much I'd boycott this election, it's nothing but a farce being used for political careers. None of them really want this enough to have the guts to do it, they don't want the responsibility that would come with it, like a institutionlised prisoner who when offered his freedom he says he craves doesn't really want to take it.

 

By voting I feel like I'm condoning this futile exercise, apparently the biggest decision in our history and the bookies think turnout will be around 55% - that pretty much sums it up.

That is bizarre. I think this is one of the times we agree. Your first paragraph sums it up nicely. I am even more confused. I have my postal card now and will get the form first week in June. Will have to remember not to be too busy to stick a pin in to vote.

[Guest MattP]

To those who do support the open door immigration policy and without resorting to silly comments about benefits etc....

 

How long do you actually think the country can sustain a net migration level of over 300,000+ a year for?

 

I'm genuinely interested in what the consensus is.

[Strokes]

To those who do support the open door immigration policy and without resorting to silly comments about benefits etc....

How long do you actually think the country can sustain a net migration level of over 300,000+ a year for?

I'm genuinely interested in what the consensus is.

Oh at least until 2010.

[Rincewind]

Other countries still take them but they have first dib so take the better qualified ones who are intelligent to realise that the grass is not always greener elsewhere. 

[Dodgy Bob]

To those who do support the open door immigration policy and without resorting to silly comments about benefits etc....

How long do you actually think the country can sustain a net migration level of over 300,000+ a year for?

I'm genuinely interested in what the consensus is.

I don't support open door immigration, but as long as migrants are at least economically neutral (earning as much as they cost) then I reckon we could theoretically sustain those numbers for many years. We have plenty of space on which to build new things. The main problem is we never proactively plan for population increases and we never have. People laughed at China's 'ghost cities' but actually they knew immigration into cities was happening so they proactively built cities in advance. Everything we do is reactive and always way too slow and loaded with red tape (of our own making). I think we could sustain those levels of immigration but we'll forever be playing catch up with infrastructure and services because our outlook is always so short term.

[Buce]

To those who do support the open door immigration policy and without resorting to silly comments about benefits etc....

How long do you actually think the country can sustain a net migration level of over 300,000+ a year for?

I'm genuinely interested in what the consensus is.

We can't sustain it, Matt, and that has been clear for a long time.

Without wanting this to seem party-political, as a Tory voter, how do you feel about the government's failure to live up to its commitment to slash immigration?

[Strokes]

We can't sustain it, Matt, and that has been clear for a long time.

Without wanting this to seem party-political, as a Tory voter, how do you feel about the government's failure to live up to its committment to slash immigration?

They have betrayed alot of their supporters/voters, I can't see myself voting for them ever again.

[Buce]

They have betrayed alot of their supporters/voters, I can't see myself voting for them ever again.

So where does that leave you, Strokes? UKIP?

[Strokes]

So where does that leave you, Strokes? UKIP?

Yes will go down that route, I've voted for them before in the European elections and feel some affinity towards them. I don't see many other alternatives for my view.

How will you voting in the referendum buce? I read you as someone who would instinctively like to remain but have major concerns over several things causing you to lean towards leave. Maybe?

[Buce]

Yes will go down that route, I've voted for them before in the European elections and feel some affinity towards them. I don't see many other alternatives for my view.

How will you voting in the referendum buce? I read you as someone who would instinctively like to remain but have major concerns over several things causing you to lean towards leave. Maybe?

Pretty much spot on, though I do tend to trust my instincts.

Put me down as undecided.

[IrememberBobHazell]

I have always felt that Politics is the art of the possible. As such you have to cut cards to get deals done.

The Prime Minister has never had a free hand to do with as he wished, in the way that Mrs Thatcher and Mr Blair did with their large majorities. First he had to placate the Liberals and now he only has a wafer thin majority which only a handful of rebels can overturn. It would seem so far in this Parliament the best opposition is not Labour but the Tory rebels who seems to be pulling from the centre.

 I'm a Tory voter myself and I don't have a downer on the Prime Minister for having to get done what he can under the circumstances but I am by no means an ardent David Cameron can do no wrong type of guy.

 Political parties represent a broad church of ideas, hence you have members of all parties on different sides of the argument. I thought I had my mind made up how to vote in this referendum yesterday, now I am not so sure. I suspect many of you are the same

[Buce]

A question for those supporting the 'Leave' campaign:

The central plank of the arguement appears to be that we need to leave the EU if we want to control immigration. Yet, of the immigration figures released today, more than half came from non-EU countries. It seems to me that we already have the ability to cut immigration from those countries, just not the political will.

What is the point of voting to leave, given that?

[Guest MattP]

We can't sustain it, Matt, and that has been clear for a long time.

Without wanting this to seem party-political, as a Tory voter, how do you feel about the government's failure to live up to its commitment to slash immigration?

 

I never believed them anyway, it was almost comical to suggest you could bring immigration into the tens of thousands whilst having an open door to 500 million people and a thriving economy.

 

The only reason I voted Tory in hindsight was because the alternative was much worse, now I'm starting to realise that the alternative was probably exactly the same, as Strokes says, unless there is a genuine chance of Corbyn becoming PM my vote will probably also be heading to UKIP for the forseeable future.

[IrememberBobHazell]

It's the heavy concentration on immigration that is putting me off the Leave campaign most of all. My issues with the EU go beyond those who would wish to live here and the recurring theme of immigration makes me feel like I would be supporting a pre-dominantly one issue movement with a possibly sinister fringe. However I suppose leaving the EU would give us more options on immigration even if we are not sure what the political will to use them would be.

 Politically I don't feel we lose anything particularly by leaving, nothing we cannot replace in any event. Economically however the Leave campaign is being beaten from pillar to post and pounds in pockets wins elections sadly.

[Guest MattP]

A question for those supporting the 'Leave' campaign:

The central plank of the arguement appears to be that we need to leave the EU if we want to control immigration. Yet, of the immigration figures released today, more than half came from non-EU countries. It seems to me that we already have the ability to cut immigration from those countries, just not the political will.

What is the point of voting to leave, given that?

 

It's not the main reason for me but if I had to answer I'd say because it's a question of quality not quantity. I have no problem with us bringing good numbers of highly skilled people from all over the World, just look at the contribution footballers make to the treasury.

 

What doesn't make any sense is hitting the working poor by flooding the market with large amounts of unskilled Labour, which is largely what comes from the EU, but Cameron and Osborne secretly love this as the supposed "economy recovery" has been built on it. The Tories have no more desire to halt mass immigration than the Labour party, probably even less now given a lot are finally starting to vote for them.

[Thracian]

Just to play Devil's Advocate, the two claims are not mutually exclusive; you could have some immigrants 'stealing our jobs', and others claiming benefits.

 

Or doing both! 

 

A question for those supporting the 'Leave' campaign:

The central plank of the arguement appears to be that we need to leave the EU if we want to control immigration. Yet, of the immigration figures released today, more than half came from non-EU countries. It seems to me that we already have the ability to cut immigration from those countries, just not the political will.

What is the point of voting to leave, given that?

 

The chance of getting politicians who do have the will to cut immigration figures. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36382199

[Dodgy Bob]

Yes will go down that route, I've voted for them before in the European elections and feel some affinity towards them. I don't see many other alternatives for my view.

How will you voting in the referendum buce? I read you as someone who would instinctively like to remain but have major concerns over several things causing you to lean towards leave. Maybe?

If an aggressive stance on immigration was what you wanted then you should never have been voting conservative to begin with. Anyone could see those immigration targets weren't going to be met, it was just a piece of populism to get a few kippers on board. A good conservative government will always put the economy first and that means accepting immigrants.

UKIP I've always found an interesting party. They have one identifiable policy and then a bizarre mish mash of rampant, destructive socialism and 1970s Nationalism. If the conservatives are the smart, safe choice for aspirational professionals then UKIP are an out of control bull dozer for anarchists and lunatics. It seems strange to me that people can switch between those parties with such ease when they're so wildly, fundamentally different.

[Buce]

It's not the main reason for me but if I had to answer I'd say because it's a question of quality not quantity. I have no problem with us bringing good numbers of highly skilled people from all over the World, just look at the contribution footballers make to the treasury.

What doesn't make any sense is hitting the working poor by flooding the market with large amounts of unskilled Labour, which is largely what comes from the EU, but Cameron and Osborne secretly love this as the supposed "economy recovery" has been built on it. The Tories have no more desire to halt mass immigration than the Labour party, probably even less now given a lot are finally starting to vote for them.

Working from home, I have little experience of workplace demographics, but Mrs Buce does; she works as a mental health nurse, and she tells me that the majority of the 'support workers' (a euphemism for unskilled care-workers) are from Africa. Don't get me wrong, it's a horrible job and there's no suggestion that they under-perform, but they can't be described as 'quality' immigrants.