The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Dr The Singh]

I'm really struggling with the remain argument, it's hyperbole, were doomed, everything stops etc etc

[Jimothy]

Why does Milliband always announce he wants to say something, like Thierry Henry does when he punditting on Sky?

[Dr The Singh]

Why does Milliband always announce he wants to say something, like Thierry Henry does when he punditting on Sky?

David talks shite

[Dodgy Bob]

This Tory Govt is quite happy to see British workers undercut by illegal labour or low pay, and to have their bargaining power weakened, because it largely exists to serve the interests of big business and the wealthy. Hence why, instead of tackling these problems, in hard times it chooses to cut tax for high-earners and to spout hot air about tax avoidance, while its leader hides his cash in Panama. I rarely feel hatred, but I do despise the immorality of the way that the Tories shaft British workers and the British public to promote the interests of capital and big business - and some, like Boris, then use immigrants as scapegoats to cynically promote their own careers. I think you're viewing the Tory attitude towards British workers through the most rose-tinted glasses ever seen.

Whatever the opposite is of rose tinted glasses, you're wearing them with this post. I'd venture something like sewage soaked eye patches. In the interests of balance let's not forget that "I'm happy to see illegal workers undercut British workers" is not something any tory mp has ever said. They've taken significant action on low pay, firstly by raising the tax free allowance, secondly by increasing the minimum wage and then introducing the living wage, thirdly by presiding over a vibrant jobs market (arguably assisted by slightly lower tax rates on employers/"the rich").

I don't think there are very many workers currently being shafted. Perhaps the odd person who is on a zero hours contract but doesn't want to be, maybe a few public sector workers used to getting everything their own way, but that pales in comparison to the millions of real people who have taken home decent above inflation pay rises year on year since 2010.

Agree with you on Boris though and the same with Gove. It really couldn't be more obvious that the stance they've taken on the EU is 100% to do with positioning themselves for career advancement and nothing at all to do with what's best for the British people. They're playing the game like snakes. Farage is another one, if he really cared about leaving the EU he'd be all over this debate like a rash, instead he's quiet, knowing that a remain vote likely propels his party forward but a leave vote finishes him for good. It's all very snakey.

[Webbo]

Whatever the opposite is of rose tinted glasses, you're wearing them with this post. I'd venture something like sewage soaked eye patches. In the interests of balance let's not forget that "I'm happy to see illegal workers undercut British workers" is not something any tory mp has ever said. They've taken significant action on low pay, firstly by raising the tax free allowance, secondly by increasing the minimum wage and then introducing the living wage, thirdly by presiding over a vibrant jobs market (arguably assisted by slightly lower tax rates on employers/"the rich").

I don't think there are very many workers currently being shafted. Perhaps the odd person who is on a zero hours contract but doesn't want to be, maybe a few public sector workers used to getting everything their own way, but that pales in comparison to the millions of real people who have taken home decent above inflation pay rises year on year since 2010.

If I didn't know better I'd think I was one of your alternative accounts.

[Rincewind]

When I was out of work I applied for a job as a care worker (part of my quota of jobs to apply for in a week) I never expected a reply but got a phone call when I found out that one of the requirements was to speak Bangladesh. Suffice to say I never got the job.

[Collibosher70]

out.

and stay out

[Alf Bentley]

Why does Milliband always announce he wants to say something, like Thierry Henry does when he punditting on Sky?

 

 

I think he copied his presentation style from Blair, ironically. Most bad things concerning presentation can be traced back to Blair. Most bad things concerning substance can be traced back to Thatcher.

[Alf Bentley]

Whatever the opposite is of rose tinted glasses, you're wearing them with this post. I'd venture something like sewage soaked eye patches. 

 

 

"Sewage-soaked eye patches"?! 

 

Ever been to the Fair Trade shop and seen how they can make notebooks out of elephant dung? I've perfected the technique so as to turn sewage into recycled spectacles offering 20-20 vision. 

 

One for the Joke Thread:

Q: What happens if you throw a deceased Moose in the river?

A: Nothing. It just Bobs along.

 

Blue skies and sunshine over Leicester. I hereby vow not to spend half of today arguing politics with you blokes, like I did yesterday. 

 

 

If I didn't know better I'd think I was one of your alternative accounts.

 

 

#DodgyWebbo

[Webbo]

[Alf Bentley]

I have a very similar situation to your dads going on with my grandma right now, as we have discussed previously. Care plans for stroke victims and especially in the 'elder' bracket is nothing short of disgusting. From communication to relatives, the rehabilitation (or complete lack of it), the funding, the consistency, the failed discharges, you could go on for hours. I can't keep up with the changes they keep making to her mental capacity, it's makes me so angry when all the medical stall can reach a conclusion one day and then the following day another completely different conclusion is reached with no obvious changes in health or condition

 

 

I can absolutely empathise with your frustrations over your Grandma's care, having faced a similar array of problems with my Dad. I'm desperately trying to avoid my Dad being one of those who needlessly ends up occupying an A&E bed for ages (or in a care home or worse). He's at home with a full-time carer at the moment (91, Parkinson's & moderate dementia). I had the duty GP out to him yesterday, as he's started refusing to eat properly and is already frail and underweight. Some of the many teams, systems and professionals have given up on him now - or are useless (social worker hasn't been in touch for 8 months, despite answerphone messages & emails). Dietician and hospital Parkinson's specialist just about still involved, but mainly care workers and GP surgery (where the receptionists view it as their mission to protect doctors from patients/relatives).

 

You don't realise what a state care for the elderly is getting into (partly under-funding, partly convoluted systems) until your parent or grandparent ends up in it, do you? Not a party-political point. Current Tory cuts in local govt spending are a major factor, but Labour also under-funded local govt in favour of central govt for cynical electoral reasons, and introduced some of the convoluted systems; it wasn't just the Tories....but the crisis seems to be getting worse.

[Strokes]

There you have it, people of Scotland. If you want independence, vote leave now to get yourselves another referendum.

[yorkie1999]

Vote Remain, so we can all retire at 80 whilst the Greeks retire at 40.

[Strokes]

I can absolutely empathise with your frustrations over your Grandma's care, having faced a similar array of problems with my Dad. I'm desperately trying to avoid my Dad being one of those who needlessly ends up occupying an A&E bed for ages (or in a care home or worse). He's at home with a full-time carer at the moment (91, Parkinson's & moderate dementia). I had the duty GP out to him yesterday, as he's started refusing to eat properly and is already frail and underweight. Some of the many teams, systems and professionals have given up on him now - or are useless (social worker hasn't been in touch for 8 months, despite answerphone messages & emails). Dietician and hospital Parkinson's specialist just about still involved, but mainly care workers and GP surgery (where the receptionists view it as their mission to protect doctors from patients/relatives).

 

You don't realise what a state care for the elderly is getting into (partly under-funding, partly convoluted systems) until your parent or grandparent ends up in it, do you? Not a party-political point. Current Tory cuts in local govt spending are a major factor, but Labour also under-funded local govt in favour of central govt for cynical electoral reasons, and introduced some of the convoluted systems; it wasn't just the Tories....but the crisis seems to be getting worse.

It's dreadful, I've had a little experience with it before and you are right it's getting worse. The way we treat older people in this country is awful, no respect and very little thought into dignity. For the first time in my life, I fear getting old.

[Guest MattP]

Sorry took me a while to respond, but recent examples include Jill Kirby and Paul Marshall on Question Time a couple of weeks back. Two people being interviewed on BBC breakfast the other morning in a mill up north, where they man pretty much waited for the woman to say the first couple of words of her answer before shouting. An audience member shouting down Alec Salmond on the debate earlier tonight. Steve Hilton shouting down Caroline Lucas just now on QT. I'm not talking about people saying the odd word, I'm not talking about people trading blows, I'm talking about people shouting down the person talking until they can't be heard.

I mean Lucas just jumped in on Hilton when he stopped talking for a second, but nothing like actually shouting over him whilst he's talking until he can't be heard which is what he was doing.

Like you say people see thing differently, but I'm certainly seeing it more from the leave campaigners.

EDIT: Dreda Say Mitchell just stopped Ed Milliband in his tracks then told him off when he tried to stop her because she was talking (I've no idea if she leave or remain though, but Ed is clearly stay)

 

I honestly don't know how you can watch that and only notice Hilton over Lucas but not notice Lucas at one point interupting Davis around 3-4 times in the space of 30 seconds, like you say we all see if different though, I've not watched the "debate" last night from Scotland, but is it true Alec Salmond said it was racist to demand a Doctor in the NHS speaks good English? If he did it's quite disgraceful as our own law says they have to.

[Guest MattP]

Michael Portillo made a terrific point regarding the "independent analysis" last night on This Week, one of the reasons we have had so many figures tossed out about how bad it will for us financially is because you can get the answers you want by asking the right questions.

 

Nome of the people in the treasury or government who commissioned these reports were ever interested in asking questions that would result in anything but bad forecasts if we leave, no question was ever asked about how much is could cost the economy or an average British household if the Eurozone collapsed, no one was going to bother to ask what effect it would have on the British economy if Greece, Ireland or Italy needs another bailout. You can get a report to say what it wants if you make sure the questions you ask are designed to give you the answer you want, a deliberate attempt by the government to remove any sort of risk from a "remain" vote despite it clearly having some.

 

It almost reminds me of the time we got that 1.4billion bill a couple of years back, "we are not paying it, it's unfair and absolutely disgraceful" Dave stood there and said, then as soon as he got re-elected George flew to Europe, decided to pay half of it and it was shown to us as some sort of great success.

 

 

It's dreadful, I've had a little experience with it before and you are right it's getting worse. The way we treat older people in this country is awful, no respect and very little thought into dignity. For the first time in my life, I fear getting old.

 

Same, although with my lifestyle I doubt I'll get there anyway, we clearly need a lot more funding for all sorts of areas of healthcare, although where the money comes from is the big question, despite all the so called cuts we are still spending far more than we are raising from the taxpayer.

[Buce]

It's dreadful, I've had a little experience with it before and you are right it's getting worse. The way we treat older people in this country is awful, no respect and very little thought into dignity. For the first time in my life, I fear getting old.

I'm hear that, Strokes.

Watching my father's decline convinced me that when my quality of life goes, I will end my life on my terms.

I'm so sorry about your grandma, mate, I had no idea.

[Guest MattP]

Another scare story that will no doubt prove to be true.

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/eu-army-plans-kept-secret-from-voters-3j3kg3zwj

 

Steps towards creating a European army are being kept secret from British voters until the day after next month’s referendum.

The plans, drawn up by the EU’s foreign policy chief, foresee the development of new European military and operational structures, including a headquarters. They are supported by Germany and other countries as the first step towards an EU army.

Similar proposals were vetoed by Britain in 2011, although there are concerns that a loophole could allow nine states to group together and bypass opponents.

To prevent the policy paper leaking and derailing David Cameron’s campaign to keep Britain in the EU, the plans will not be sent to national governments until the day after Britons vote.

Until then the Global Strategy on Foreign and Security Policy can be read by only a small circle of EU political and security committee ambassadors, who must leave all their electronic devices outside a sealed room. They are allowed to take handwritten notes.

 

 

And to pay for it doubtless there will be another increase in our EU budget contribution.

 

If this is thrown on us very shortly after we vote to stay in, the Prime Minister's position is untenable. We really will have to make a decision about whether to join the euro, give up our diplomatic corps and rely on the EU army for our defence, or remain as a sovereign nation. The idea that we can be part of a club that is going to do these things, but somehow we will forever be excused the bits we don't like is a fantasy.

[Dodgy Bob]

Michael Portillo made a terrific point regarding the "independent analysis" last night on This Week, one of the reasons we have had so many figures tossed out about how bad it will for us financially is because you can get the answers you want by asking the right questions.

Nome of the people in the treasury or government who commissioned these reports were ever interested in asking questions that would result in anything but bad forecasts if we leave, no question was ever asked about how much is could cost the economy or an average British household if the Eurozone collapsed, no one was going to bother to ask what effect it would have on the British economy if Greece, Ireland or Italy needs another bailout. You can get a report to say what it wants if you make sure the questions you ask are designed to give you the answer you want, a deliberate attempt by the government to remove any sort of risk from a "remain" vote despite it clearly having some.

It almost reminds me of the time we got that 1.4billion bill a couple of years back, "we are not paying it, it's unfair and absolutely disgraceful" Dave stood there and said, then as soon as he got re-elected George flew to Europe, decided to pay half of it and it was shown to us as some sort of great success.

Same, although with my lifestyle I doubt I'll get there anyway, we clearly need a lot more funding for all sorts of areas of healthcare, although where the money comes from is the big question, despite all the so called cuts we are still spending far more than we are raising from the taxpayer.

I haven't looked at the detail but strongly suspect that the costs of EU membership within the projections are based on what it has cost us in the past, which includes our contribution to bail outs/other problems. That's the best you can do really. There's a million things that 'might' happen including major black Swan events that change the game either way. If you arbitrarily include such events then you really are in making the figures say what you want territory.

[Rincewind]

Isn't asking the wrong questions of politicians part of the game though and been going on for years? A lot of them have prepared set of questions or subjects

As for the deal over the money owed, I believe I mentioned at the time that what was negotiated was only a rebate we would have got anyway but was called a fool for saying it. He was asked plenty of questions about how much it was and Cameron answered in a way which made him look good. He failed to mentioned we still had to pay the money which all EU countries do.I doubt that it would be different with a Labour politician. 

[Bettsj2]

The worst thing about this debate is whenever a politician on the leave or remain side is asked a specific question about anything, the only answer any of them give is, 'we just dont know'.

All of the figures as has been said are produced with a certain agenda in mind so are basically pointless and economic forecasts are based on speculation only so are equally pointless.

Its amazing that anybody can form an opinion of how to vote based on what we have heard so far.

[Guest MattP]

The Green party mayoral candidate for London has just taken the scaremongering to a new level on the Daily Politics.

 

She's actually claimed (and stood by when asked again) that if we vote to leave all EU nationals will be deported from the country.

[SMX11]

The Green party mayoral candidate for London has just taken the scaremongering to a new level on the Daily Politics.

She's actually claimed (and stood by when asked again) that if we vote to leave all EU nationals will be deported from the country.

Jesus wept. I think I am going to ignore all politics shows until after the referendum.

[Guest MattP]

Jesus wept. I think I am going to ignore all politics shows until after the referendum.

 

She can't seriously believe it, they have a leadership election coming up soon so maybe just putting herself into pole position by saying the most dopey "progressive" comment of the campaign so far.

[Dodgy Bob]

What have Brexit said will happen to existing EU migrants? Presumably some kind of grace period followed by a requirement to get visa's, the difficulty of which will be set by the government of the day.