The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Rincewind]

Sharia Law? More likely that Secular values will be more popular. We are already seeing the demise of fundamental religions.

The majority of Muslims are moderates and are like every other human being. Some good some bad. There are many All Faith groups that operate across the UK. I am not religious but would not object to those as an alternative

As second and third generation Muslims grow up in this country they will be influenced by the English way of life. Whatever that is. Commercialism and friends will turn them against the old ways of their parents grandparents. We have seen this in modern Western culture throughout the fifties and sixties with the coming of rock music and swinging sixties so the 'We are being taken over by aliens' is just a another myth.

Feel free to disbelieve this and run round in circles shouting 'We are doomed be afraid very afraid they are coming to get you.' 

[Thracian]

The "Muslim London mayor" also gave his guidance on gay marriage. He repeatedly supported it, to the extent that the police warned him about death threats

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11878/sadiq_khan/tooting/divisions?policy=826

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2279703/Death-threats-UKs-Muslim-MP-voted-gay-marriage.html

 

I've yet to see processions of bearded Mullahs chanting "There is one God, Allah, and Sadiq is his prophet. He says support gay marriage and the EU, this is the word of the prophet, lads, so let's ignore his sharp New Labour suit and lack of a beard".

 

Maybe a Remain vote will lead to an evangelical Christian state in 40 years time? Look at what our "Christian PM" has to say: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/16/david-cameron-evangelical-about-christian-faith

"David Cameron has declared himself an "evangelical" about his Christian faith as he criticised some non-believers for failing to grasp the role that religion can have in "helping people to have a moral code". In his third effort this week to highlight his own strong faith, the prime minister said he wanted to see a bigger role for religion in Britain as a Christian country and urged fellow believers to be more confident in spreading their views".

Has Sadiq Khan said anything similar about Islam?

 

I'd be more worried about us having Old Testament law in 40 years time, a Holy Bible as required reading for every household and being whipped down the street carrying a Crucifix every Easter.

 

Nah! Actually, I wouldn't be worried either about New Labour apparatchiks introducing Sharia law or about sub-Thatcherite tax avoiders promoting the Old Testament. I'd just concentrate on the pros and cons of the EU.   

 

 

I don't want either thanks. They've both done enough damage over the years or would you not agree?

 

And aspects of Sharia law are already practiced in the UK, along with Jewish and other sectarian law with an estimated 85 Sharia courts operating even back in 2011 according to one report. 

 

 http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-sharia-law-uk/18486

 

Just key in Sharia Law in UK for any number of other references. 

 

If man-made or promoted religion is such a wonderful vehicle for the "moral code" you mention, how come the world has been littered with those killed, injured or intimidated in the name of religion since the dawn of written history and perhaps now as shamefully as ever - or even more so when considered on a global basis?

 

And if people were so sincerely concerned, how come organised religious practice seems as strident as ever even to the great concern of some governments, including China?  

 

Rincey mentions the "demise" of religion but opting out is not even a fundamental right or option for followers of Islam and things were no easier for Christians a few centuries back.  

 

The fears instilled by religious beliefs of any kind are not what's needed to establish a moral code because fear should be no part of teaching anything.

 

Parents and teachers can all promote a moral code without reference to any faith or religion at all. Religion is used for power, control and the oppressing of people.   

[Alf Bentley]

I'm very dubious about what sadiq says in public vs what he preaches in private. Only time will tell

 

 

He's a fully signed-up Brownite New Labour careerist, I think.

 

Mind you, it does look as if he's been caught associating with extremists again: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36410749 

"David Cameron has hailed Labour's Sadiq Khan as "proud Muslim" and "a proud Brit" as he shared a platform with the London Mayor at an EU Remain rally. They were jointly launching a Britain Stronger In Europe battle bus, despite Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn refusing to campaign with Mr Cameron".   

[leicsmac]

Labour's first Muslim London mayor has given his guidance. And I'm sure that message will be relayed to Muslim communities across the country which should mean an emphatic kick-start for the Remain vote. 

And, of course, it is entirely understandable.

So many Labour votes depend on those Muslim and other incomer communities.

And with the party desperate for more such votes to return them to power I'm equally convinced that if Labour have their way, we'll remain in Europe, and the immigration doors will be left wide open for those thought most "in need" whether they be refugees or economic migrants who might equally be thought of as potential political allies (at least for the time being). 

I'm equally sure that if Cameron is backed, the same will apply, because his promise to reduce immigration has proved to be as hollow as the Blackwall Tunnel and is about as credible as some of his other promises and so much of the supposedly "informed" but scandalously one-sided and highly questionable financial comment on the subject of EU membership.

As an old time Brit it makes me glad I'm in the twilight of my life because our faltering and systematically downgraded community is being well and truly snookered and, ironically, with the compliance of our own kids and grandkids who've been widely educated to have no concerns whatsoever and to believe in the idealistic (albeit subtly weighted) concept of a Brotherhood of Man for all that there are, metaphorically, countless sickeningly vicious wars going on as we speak.

"They know not what they do," is a phrase which comes to my mind, but I certainly wouldn't apply it to Sadiq Khan.

Leicester to win the Premiership at 5000-1. Crazy but true.

Sharia law across Britain and most of Europe within 40 years, and a Holy Koran as required reading for every household too? No chance of anything like 5000-1 is my guess. Fifty to one might be generous.

    

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36410749

 

Not sure where to start with this, but the highlighted bit will do.

 

It's amusing that you think such idealism is the way the world ends, when it's in fact likely the opposite is true.

[Thracian]

Sharia Law? More likely that Secular values will be more popular. We are already seeing the demise of fundamental religions.

The majority of Muslims are moderates and are like every other human being. Some good some bad. There are many All Faith groups that operate across the UK. I am not religious but would not object to those as an alternative

As second and third generation Muslims grow up in this country they will be influenced by the English way of life. Whatever that is. Commercialism and friends will turn them against the old ways of their parents grandparents. We have seen this in modern Western culture throughout the fifties and sixties with the coming of rock music and swinging sixties so the 'We are being taken over by aliens' is just a another myth.

Feel free to disbelieve this and run round in circles shouting 'We are doomed be afraid very afraid they are coming to get you.' 

 

 

What do you know about "most Muslims?". And where's this demise of fundamental religions you talk of? Mosques, madrassas, they'd hardly been heard of in the UK 40 years ago.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356944/Clampdown-abusive-secret-Muslim-schools-Illegal-madrasas-face-prosecution-Ofsted-warns-children-risk-radicalisation.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356944/Clampdown-abusive-secret-Muslim-schools-Illegal-madrasas-face-prosecution-Ofsted-warns-children-risk-radicalisation.html

 

The above is nothing new in the religious world. Catholic and Protestant churches have had their own shame over the years and it all needs to end. People young and old should be shielded from all kinds of idealistic brainwashing.       

[Alf Bentley]

Sharia Law? More likely that Secular values will be more popular. We are already seeing the demise of fundamental religions.

The majority of Muslims are moderates and are like every other human being. Some good some bad. There are many All Faith groups that operate across the UK. I am not religious but would not object to those as an alternative

As second and third generation Muslims grow up in this country they will be influenced by the English way of life. Whatever that is. Commercialism and friends will turn them against the old ways of their parents grandparents. We have seen this in modern Western culture throughout the fifties and sixties with the coming of rock music and swinging sixties so the 'We are being taken over by aliens' is just a another myth.

Feel free to disbelieve this and run round in circles shouting 'We are doomed be afraid very afraid they are coming to get you.' 

 

 

I like your optimism, Ken - and I mean that genuinely. I hope you're right. I might stick around for 40 years, if so, though neither you, nor I nor Thracian are likely to be here to find out. 

 

There are some big dangers just now, with the influence of extremist Islamism over a small minority - but a minority big enough to cause serious damage, particularly if there's an upsurge in Islamophobia (hasn't happened much yet in the UK, thankfully).

 

My daughter was round playing with several friends from Muslim families yesterday. They seem to have been mainly eating sweets and playing Minecraft, not growing beards, introducing Sharia law and building suicide bombs.

[Alf Bentley]

People young and old should be shielded from all kinds of idealistic brainwashing.       

 

 

Completely agree with that - and would include nationalistic or socialistic brainwashing in that.

 

I suspect that future generations will be horrified at the way in which our era thought it OK to bring children up as belonging to a particular religion (or political creed, for that matter).

 

Making all faith schools illegal would be a good start. 

 

Anyway, getting back on-topic re. the EU might be a good idea.....

[Rincewind]

I'd be happy to see the end of religion. There are muslim groups in Leicester running Foodbanks. I do not regard them as Muslims just decent people who would do the same whether they were Jew Sikh Christian or whatever. There are also people who claim to be Muslim etc who do bad things and again they would do it anyway. It is all to do with how you are raised and the influences around you and religion can make you a bad or good person depending on which text interpretation you follow. No religion you are not subject to religious rules but morality rules and your surroundings.

[Thracian]

Not sure where to start with this, but the highlighted bit will do.

 

It's amusing that you think such idealism is the way the world ends, when it's in fact likely the opposite is true.

 

 

 

Well, if that's the utopian dream a lot of people are still going the wrong way about achieving it. 

[Thracian]

I like your optimism, Ken - and I mean that genuinely. I hope you're right. I might stick around for 40 years, if so, though neither you, nor I nor Thracian are likely to be here to find out. 

 

There are some big dangers just now, with the influence of extremist Islamism over a small minority - but a minority big enough to cause serious damage, particularly if there's an upsurge in Islamophobia (hasn't happened much yet in the UK, thankfully).

 

My daughter was round playing with several friends from Muslim families yesterday. They seem to have been mainly eating sweets and playing Minecraft, not growing beards, introducing Sharia law and building suicide bombs.

 

 

It's never been the moderates who bully and oppress in any faith, Alf. But that doesn't stop people being intimidated. Even in the hellhole of Iraq   there are moderate Sunnis who don't know which way to turn for a quiet life because they didn't side with extremist Sunnis and the countering Shi-ites don't trust them in their own midst.

Bottom line it's all down to power and control by those who pose the greatest threat or are most fanatical.

As for the "moral code" you mentioned and would be commendable if encouraged by example instead of brutality , I wouldn't want to sully these pages with the reality of what supposedly righteous people have done in the so-called name of goodness. But then you wouldn't need evidence of what you already know in any case.    

[Rincewind]

As in most things the ones that are the most extreme have the loudest voices. The moderates as in the EU debate are not heard so we do not hear a balanced argument. It is either one way or the other.

[Dr The Singh]

He's a fully signed-up Brownite New Labour careerist, I think.

Mind you, it does look as if he's been caught associating with extremists again: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36410749

"David Cameron has hailed Labour's Sadiq Khan as "proud Muslim" and "a proud Brit" as he shared a platform with the London Mayor at an EU Remain rally. They were jointly launching a Britain Stronger In Europe battle bus, despite Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn refusing to campaign with Mr Cameron".

It's all fooked up, there is no one you can trust in politics. I fear for this country, it's going to turn into a Islamifest, right wing shite fest. I'm looking off to a trump america

[leicsmac]

Well, if that's the utopian dream a lot of people are still going the wrong way about achieving it. 

 

Too many people still seeing other people as things.

 

It's never been the moderates who bully and oppress in any faith, Alf. But that doesn't people being intimidated. Even in the hellhole of Iraq   there are moderate Sunnis who don't know which way to turn for a quiet life because they didn't side with extremist Sunnis and the countering Shi-ites don't trust them in their own midst.

Bottom line it's all down to power and control by those who pose the greatest threat or are most fanatical.

As for the "moral code" you mentioned and would be commendable if encouraged by example instead of brutality , I wouldn't want to sully these pages with the reality of what supposedly righteous people have done in the so-called name of goodness. But then you wouldn't need evidence of what you already know in any case.    

 

You're absolutely right regarding your point about power and control.

 

Doesn't stop 'Might Makes Right' being the most incredibly dangerous bullshit ever deployed by man though, regardless of what name it's in.

[Thracian]

Completely agree with that - and would include nationalistic or socialistic brainwashing in that.

 

I suspect that future generations will be horrified at the way in which our era thought it OK to bring children up as belonging to a particular religion (or political creed, for that matter).

 

Making all faith schools illegal would be a good start. 

 

Anyway, getting back on-topic re. the EU might be a good idea.....

 

 

 

In the ideal world people have referred to, there really wouldn't be any need for nationalistic or socialogical drum beating.

 

I spoke for an hour on Saturday with a Turkish teacher who had come to the UK to be free from the threat of intended President Erdogan and his pals.

 

Loveliest girl you could ever meet. Absolutely brimful of goodness and positivity. If the world were full of such people we'd be dazzled by the smiles and bonhomie. Life would be one long celebration.  

 

But here she is in the UK - an intelligent, personable, multi-lingual girl - having become all but afraid to continue living in her own land due to the bullying, intimidating or degrading behaviour of her countrymen. 

 

I don't want it here but, sadly, people are too slow to see the worst in folk, especially vulnerable or naive young people in the flood of optimistic/idealistic youth. Yet,  in many towns and cities, the intimidators are already entrenched. 

[Alf Bentley]

In the ideal world people have referred to, there really wouldn't be any need for nationalistic or socialogical drum beating.

 

I spoke for an hour on Saturday with a Turkish teacher who had come to the UK to be free from the threat of intended President Erdogan and his pals.

 

Loveliest girl you could ever meet. Absolutely brimful of goodness and positivity. If the world were full of such people we'd be dazzled by the smiles and bonhomie. Life would be one long celebration.  

 

But here she is in the UK - an intelligent, personable, multi-lingual girl - having become all but afraid to continue living in her own land due to the bullying, intimidating or degrading behaviour of her countrymen. 

 

I don't want it here but, sadly, people are too slow to see the worst in folk, especially vulnerable or naive young people in the flood of optimistic/idealistic youth. Yet,  in many towns and cities, the intimidators are already entrenched. 

 

 

I don't necessarily disagree. Naivety can indeed be dangerous. But so can suspicion and cynicism.

 

It can be just as dangerous for people to be too quick to see the worst in folk as for them to be too slow. Too much suspicion of people who seem a bit "alien" can generate a cycle of suspicion, hostility and conflict on all sides.

 

I'd advocate good, balanced education, regular contact through everyday living and attitudes of openness on all sides, while not being naive and keeping an eye out for those (on all sides) who seek to manipulate, intimidate or sow conflict.

[Dr The Singh]

I don't necessarily disagree. Naivety can indeed be dangerous. But so can suspicion and cynicism.

It can be just as dangerous for people to be too quick to see the worst in folk as for them to be too slow. Too much suspicion of people who seem a bit "alien" can generate a cycle of suspicion, hostility and conflict on all sides.

I'd advocate good, balanced education, regular contact through everyday living and attitudes of openness on all sides, while not being naive and keeping an eye out for those (on all sides) who seek to manipulate, intimidate or sow conflict.

, all this utopian crap that people spout is all bollocks. Do these people want it, cus today the shit spouted is all available, but today they won't, and in fact insular behaviour is on the increase. The availability of literature on the web mean whatever social reforms want to change there is a more truer reflection on the web

[leicsmac]

, all this utopian crap that people spout is all bollocks. Do these people want it, cus today the shit spouted is all available, but today they won't, and in fact insular behaviour is on the increase. The availability of literature on the web mean whatever social reforms want to change there is a more truer reflection on the web

 

Believe that if you like Singhy. You could well be right. 

 

But I'll stick to at least hoping humanity, being aware of the shit that did for its forebears, will actually know how to get past it. 

[Dr The Singh]

Believe that if you like Singhy. You could well be right.

But I'll stick to at least hoping humanity, being aware of the shit that did for its forebears, will actually know how to get past it.

I'm only saying what I see....too many people trying to gloss turds. I see the same people who were openly ignorant now mascaraed in public like virgins. Why? Because now there previous behaviours were unacceptable in media. History has shown empires to diminish and change....if Britain is not careful it will be the first of a new empire

[Thracian]

Can't disagree with any of that in theory Alf nor even hoping it works out as you'd wish, for all that I do admit to greatly increased cynicism since coming to work in Leicester.

 

I guess I'm not a natural compromiser in a society where we suddenly seem pressured into making constant compromise - and much of it to our long term cost as I see it, though I may be wrong.  

 

Thankfully, my Leicester market days come to an end tomorrow and, who knows, perhaps I'll regain my optimistic outlook as quickly as my golf swing once I'm out in the countryside again and as far as I can get from inner city influences, despair and frustrations.    

[davieG]

Can't disagree with any of that in theory Alf nor even hoping it works out as you'd wish, for all that I do admit to greatly increased cynicism since coming to work in Leicester.

 

I guess I'm not a natural compromiser in a society where we suddenly seem pressured into making constant compromise - and much of it to our long term cost as I see it, though I may be wrong.  

 

Thankfully, my Leicester market days come to an end tomorrow and, who knows, perhaps I'll regain my optimistic outlook as quickly as my golf swing once I'm out in the countryside again and as far as I can get from inner city influences, despair and frustrations.    

Are you retiring or moving on to new adventures?

[Thracian]

All the reports make forecasts based on staying in and leaving, that's how they're able to compare the two and say things like "we'll be £Xbn worse off by leaving".

 

 

 

Based on dodgy input like the pensions aspect! Or trade prospects which have prompted so much negative nonsense I'm not convinced of at all.  

[Thracian]

Are you retiring or moving on to new adventures?

 

 

 

New adventures I hope. Without all the heavy lifting!  

[davieG]

New adventures I hope. Without all the heavy lifting!

Good luck with that hope all goes well.

[Dodgy Bob]

Based on dodgy input like the pensions aspect! Or trade prospects which have prompted so much negative nonsense I'm not convinced of at all.

Haven't really been paying attention but I think the pensions discussion is based on the treasury report, ie it's output rather than input. It's only logical that if the economy suffers then pensions will suffer as well, private ones at least.

[Alf Bentley]

"This EU referendum is a serious business, one of the most serious decisions that we will be asked to make in our lifetimes, but there is something profoundly unserious and unreal about what is going on. Sometimes the debate is simply grim, sometimes it’s farcical. Quite honestly I have seen rap battles that involve less daft posturing".

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/30/eu-referendum-debate-undecided-vote

 

"David Cameron’s battle to keep Britain in the EU enters its final phase on Tuesday amid worries in the remain camp that more needs to be done to woo traditional Labour voters who have told pollsters they do not understand the party’s stance on the issue. With three weeks to go before polling day on 23 June, Cameron plans to step up campaigning with Labour, Green, Liberal Democrat and trade union figures as he tries to stop the debate sliding into an argument about his own leadership of the Tory party. A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit".

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says

 

 

What an utter farce! Unless the debate improves over the next 3 weeks (and it may well become even more hysterical), this referendum could be decided by what the "undecideds" do on the day. I'm not sure which side stands to benefit from that. If undecideds stay at home in vast numbers, probably Brexit. In theory, a high turnout is supposed to favour the status quo, but I'm not so sure in this case. If Brexit is seen as the more widely accepted opinion (Brexit people tend to be more committed and vocal), then it might go the other way.

 

The main political parties should share a lot of the blame for this farce: Labour for seeming to be uncommitted fence-sitters and the Tories for effectively turning the biggest decision of our lifetimes into an internal party power struggle. But I do blame the public, too. I appreciate that it's a difficult decision, as we can't easily tell what the EU will be like in 10-20 years time or what the UK would be like in 10-20 years time if we do leave. It's a perfectly respectable position to look at the issues and still see the outcome as unpredictable either way or evenly balanced. However, in the Internet age, there really is no excuse for anyone (apart from those with no Internet access) to say that they don't understand how the EU works or its pros and cons. Even then, I'm sure there are cheap paperbacks presenting the In and Out cases.

 

I really hope the debate improves over the next 3 weeks - but would settle for it just not getting any worse!