The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Guest MattP]

The EU shows just how damaging ideologies can be without democracy.

They were determined to force through the Eurozone on everyone no matter what the consequences, Greece has debts is can never pay off and youth unemployment over 50%, Spain and Italy aren't much better but the ideology was more important to the fanatics than the well being of the people in those countries.

I dread to think what they will conjure up next, whatever is it you can be certain it won't be good for the average person and even if they know it isn't, they'll still drive it through whatever because of the ideology.

[Strokes]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

More scaremongering or again evidence that the EU will ride roughshod over national interests in its pursuit of its own?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

More scaremongering or again evidence that the EU will ride roughshod over national interests in its pursuit of its own?

Here's the link to the documents... https://ttip-leaks.org (Funny this wasn't supplied in the article.)

Having started reading the section regarding state owned stuff, I've come across wording such as this several times already;

For greater certainty, nothing in this Chapter shall be construed to prevent a Party from: (a) establishing or maintaining a state enterprise or state-owned enterprise, or (b) designating a monopoly.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

This is a it about the committee;

Committee on State-Owned Enterprises and Designated Monopolies

1. The Parties hereby establish a Committee on State-Owned Enterprises and Designated Monopolies, comprised of officials from each Party.

2. The Committee shall meet within one year of the date of entry into force of the Agreement, and at least annually thereafter, unless the Parties decide otherwise.

3. The Committee shall:

(a) review and consider the operation and implementation of this Chapter;

(b) discuss, at a Party's request, the activities of any state-owned enterprise or designated monopoly of a Party specified in the request with a view to identifying any distortion of trade or investment between the Parties that may result from those activities;

© consider, at a Party's request, notifications under Article 8 (Transparency);

(d) develop cooperative efforts, as appropriate, to promote the principles underlying the obligations contained in this Chapter and to contribute to the development of similar obligations in regional and multilateral institutions in which the Parties participate; and

(e) undertake such other activities as the Committee may decide.

4. Prior to each Committee meeting, each party shall invite, as appropriate, input from the public on matters related to state-owned enterprises or designated monopolies that may affect developing its meeting agenda.

Having gone through this section, I think what this looks to achieve is avoid a situation like with China where a state owned business can flood the market with cheap steel because it can afford to - with the aim of knocking a lot of its competitors. The document also requires the states agencies to be transparent and where it procures business via private tender, it reaches decisions on commercial terms.

I don't think any of this sounds unreasonable or poses a particular threat to the NHS, plus given the French state owns power companies and the German's have a wide reaching state funded train company (I believe), I doubt very much that this deal would agree to anything that would endanger state run enterprises.

The other important point to note on this - once the basis of the deal has been put together, it then turns on our government at the time to agree to it (or not) if we were in the EU. If on the otherhand we were outside the EU and looked to do a trade deal with the US, then we'd no doubt end up with something very similar or possibly even worse because our bargaining position has reduced somewhat.

[BlueSi13]

The credible treasury report has come out with some very, very gloomy forecasts today. They are only forecasts but like forecasting a temperature of -10C, even if it only gets to -5C, it's still bloody cold, and there is no warmth whatsoever in the forecast today.

 

 

Of course there wasn't...the political careers of Cameron, Osborne and senior members of the Treasury can now only be saved in the event of a resounding Bremain victory.  They are firing every gun there is to ensure that project white flag succeeds by scaring the populace so badly that they'll all race to the polls to stay in. 

 

What an absolute tragedy it is to see a British Conservative Prime Minister talk down his people, his culture and his country in such a manner.   

 

Remember when this all started, when he was asked if Britain could prosper outside the EU.  He said yes.  When the polls started shifting toward Brexit.  He warned of a potential shock to the economy.  When the polls wouldn't budge.  He warned of job cuts.  When the polls favoured Brexit.  He then told us that we'd either lose our jobs or our lives in WW3.  Absolutely despicable. 

 

Looks as if he will get his victory as people have been frightened beyond all sense and reason, but the fallout from this will be thermo-nuclear.  He will not survive into 2017.  Sadly though it will be far to late for the once Great and proud Britain.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The EU was set up by politicians for politicians....it has been "done" to the people without the people being involved...we were misled into a united states of Europe by politicians when we thought we had voted for a common trading market.....I know in my gut if we vote to stay in, it will end in bitter tears ..one size does not fit all in this life.... no matter what big business and vested interested career politicians scare us with.... history proves the so called visionaries of grand unions and vast empires are wrong headed fools....pity we never learn..

 

 

The EU shows just how damaging ideologies can be without democracy.

They were determined to force through the Eurozone on everyone no matter what the consequences, Greece has debts is can never pay off and youth unemployment over 50%, Spain and Italy aren't much better but the ideology was more important to the fanatics than the well being of the people in those countries.

I dread to think what they will conjure up next, whatever is it you can be certain it won't be good for the average person and even if they know it isn't, they'll still drive it through whatever because of the ideology.

Bloody hell guys, you make it sound like... No I won't mention the obvious one, that era of history has featured too much already so,to pick another one... like communist Russia.

You make out as if this country has been in constant recession for the whole 40 years it's been a member, that there has been no advancements in our way of life throughout that time, that we haven't become more enlightened with the ways our near neighbours work and joined together to complete projects such as Concorde and the Channel Tunnel.

The difficulties this country is in at the moment is more down to short term decisons that were made in government. The key infrastructure for business of power and water was sold of into private hands (and the French EDF) meaning every business now pays an additional premium on their costs, we sold off our social housing stock and then neglected to replace them for years and years, hospitals and schools were run down so that it then cost an inordinate amount to try to bring them back up to speed and we neglected to think how we were going to fund a load of pensions with a comparatively decreasing work force among other disasters.

It is our decisions that have led to the perfect shit storm we could be driving towards - but that's not the EU's fault - in fact maybe the reason we're still in a boat with a paddle as the 5th largest economy in the world is because we're in the EU, not despite it.

The other thing we can't get away from - in or out, what happens to our nearest neighbours will effect us to, we can't physically move this Island and attach it to the side of Trump's America, so it might make sense to ensure we are part of the solution rather than just sitting by and whistling in the wind on the side. Look after your neighbours, you'll end up a great neighbourhood. Being leaders of country units - that's what mighty countries do and something we should always aspire to.

There are so many positive reasons why the EU is still a vechicle of great potential for this country and can be a power for good internationally - we just have to commit to it (that doesn't mean ever closer union, which won't happen at least in our lifetime) and focus the negative energy on the things we don't like into pushing for positive change from within.

[Guest MattP]

What an absolute tragedy it is to see a British Conservative Prime Minister talk down his people, his culture and his country in such a manner.   

 

Remember when this all started, when he was asked if Britain could prosper outside the EU.  He said yes.  When the polls started shifting toward Brexit.  He warned of a potential shock to the economy.  When the polls wouldn't budge.  He warned of job cuts.  When the polls favoured Brexit.  He then told us that we'd either lose our jobs or our lives in WW3.  Absolutely despicable. 

 

Looks as if he will get his victory as people have been frightened beyond all sense and reason, but the fallout from this will be thermo-nuclear.  He will not survive into 2017.  Sadly though it will be far to late for the once Great and proud Britain.

 

It's tragic, absolutely awful.

 

23 years wait for a Conservative majority and they aren't interested in doing a thing, the government's only intention is now set up to win a "remain" vote and save the careers of David Cameron and George Osborne, he even dragged Ed Balls and Vince Cable out with him last week, two failures quite rightly dumped by the electorate last year.

 

Hopefully within weeks of the remain vote we'll see the letter to the 1922 committee.

[johnny the fox]

 

 

Bloody hell guys, you make it sound like... No I won't mention the obvious one, that era of history has featured too much already so,to pick another one... like communist Russia.

You make out as if this country has been in constant recession for the whole 40 years it's been a member, that there has been no advancements in our way of life throughout that time, that we haven't become more enlightened with the ways our near neighbours work and joined together to complete projects such as Concorde and the Channel Tunnel.

The difficulties this country is in at the moment is more down to short term decisons that were made in government. The key infrastructure for business of power and water was sold of into private hands (and the French EDF) meaning every business now pays an additional premium on their costs, we sold off our social housing stock and then neglected to replace them for years and years, hospitals and schools were run down so that it then cost an inordinate amount to try to bring them back up to speed and we neglected to think how we were going to fund a load of pensions with a comparatively decreasing work force among other disasters.

It is our decisions that have led to the perfect shit storm we could be driving towards - but that's not the EU's fault - in fact maybe the reason we're still in a boat with a paddle as the 5th largest economy in the world is because we're in the EU, not despite it.

The other thing we can't get away from - in or out, what happens to our nearest neighbours will effect us to, we can't physically move this Island and attach it to the side of Trump's America, so it might make sense to ensure we are part of the solution rather than just sitting by and whistling in the wind on the side. Look after your neighbours, you'll end up a great neighbourhood. Being leaders of country units - that's what mighty countries do and something we should always aspire to.

There are so many positive reasons why the EU is still a vechicle of great potential for this country and can be a power for good internationally - we just have to commit to it (that doesn't mean ever closer union, which won't happen at least in our lifetime) and focus the negative energy on the things we don't like into pushing for positive change from within.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions....remember all the positive talk about the Arab spring?  now look at it...its the law of unforseen consequences...

[Guest MattP]

Just to ask, is there anyone on this whole forum that genuinely believes David Cameron's comments from just a few months saying if he didn't get a proper re-negotiation he might campaign to leave?

 

Given that a Brexit was actually going to result in war, job losses, financial destruction and recession?

[Guest MattP]

I don't think the referendum is decided at all, even if there has been a recent shift towards Remain.

 

Poll in Guardian yesterday:  http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/21/tory-eu-referendum-voters-switching-remain-opinium-observer-poll

 

That shows a 4% lead for Remain, but if you scroll down to the bottom section, it says that 67% of Leave voters see the referendum as more important than a General Election (I agree with them), but only 47% of Remain votes say the same.

On that basis, you'd have to expect a higher turnout among Leave supporters than among Remain (particularly if the latter start to see the outcome as a foregone conclusion - they could get a nasty surprise).

 

Interesting, too, that the Remain lead among Tory voters is actually HIGHER than the lead overall. So, either a lot of Tories are starting to switch to UKIP or the Leave vote is very high among Labour voters (both, I suspect).

 

There are still 4-5 weeks to go, and events and campaigning will still affect the outcome - in which direction, who knows? Depends on the nature of the events and the quality of the campaigning, I suppose.

 

I do think that Leave have been crazy to have the whole campaign effectively fronted by Boris, Gove, IDS & other Tory ministers (plus a semi-detached Farage). I appreciate that they haven't got any Labour big names on board, but why aren't they giving a more prominent role to Gisela Stuart, Kate Hoey & other Labour Leave supporters? Or David Owen, for that matter? I appreciate that you're a passionate Leave supporter, Matt, so you'd probably vote entirely on political substance. But just imagine for a minute that the Leave campaign was fronted by Corbyn, McDonnell & Abbott (plus a semi-detached Galloway). That's the mirror image - and that would put off a lot of right-wingers, wouldn't it? To be fair to you, you've always seen the need for the Leave campaign to be broad (Right, Centre & Left), but so far it's coming across as largely a campaign for the Right: Thatcherism with a bit of right-wing nationalism thrown in, not emphasising democracy or potential benefits for Labour/Left voters or giving a prominent role to anyone from that side of politics.

 

I'm still hoping for a better-quality debate, but am not holding my breath. Both sides have been terrible - and terribly dishonest and/or lacking in substance in their claims. 

 

Sorry for the late reply, I can't do big posts and quote on a phone until I am back onto the PC in the week.

 

I think it's gone, barring some major cock up by remain people are just too scared to vote for leave, a UKIP voter I spoke to on Saturday is even voting remain as his boss has told how important it is to his job, if we are losing UKIP voters from the cause then we have no hope The more passionate supporters are clearly leave but I still think we are looking at a <50% turnout needed now for a Brexit victory and in reality it would be a travesty if such an important decision was won on such a low turnout as that, today's Telegraph is giving remain a leave among Men, Tory voters and pensioners, ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/23/eu-referendum-poll-pensioners-tory-voters-and-men-are-deserting/) - if there is any truth in that then we could even be looking at a hammering.

 

The Leave campaign has been very poor, I still maintain it was the right decision to leave Farage out in the cold but Kate Hoey and Frank Field should have been far more prominent, Boris had to be the frontman, this is a guy who could even win in one of the biggest Labour cities in the country but he's done a pretty poor job and his toouch of the Livingstone tourettes shamed him.

 

He might have played a absolute blinder himself though, secretly wanting a remain vote (I find it hard to believe anyone who so passionately argued for Turkey's inclusion just five years ago could seriously want us out) and getting it whilst also walzing into the Conservative leadership on the back of his supposed Eurosceptic credentials for an easy election win in 2020.

 

I still think Labour could be doing themselves huge damage on this though, not as bad as Scotland but similar mistakes could be being made, I think the Labour vote will be split about 70-30 in favour of remain and that's a lot of people to completely take one side against, the lessons of Indyref really should have been learnt and I think as a party they should have campaigned for a remain vote but also set out a vision to their own supporters of what a Labour government would do if the public decide to vote for a Brexit, they could even have gained some support with commitments to things like workers rights and other things a lot of their traditional support are concerned about in the event of a leave vote (I'd have course have liked the Tories to do the same thing but Cameron and Osborne are never going to set out a potential stall that could encourage people to end their careers)

 

There will be no higher level of debate, fear works and politicians know it.

 

Finally I;m delighted to see you back on your feet so quick, glad the operation went well and hope you recover as soon as possible.

[Dodgy Bob]

Of course there wasn't...the political careers of Cameron, Osborne and senior members of the Treasury can now only be saved in the event of a resounding Bremain victory. They are firing every gun there is to ensure that project white flag succeeds by scaring the populace so badly that they'll all race to the polls to stay in.

What an absolute tragedy it is to see a British Conservative Prime Minister talk down his people, his culture and his country in such a manner.

Remember when this all started, when he was asked if Britain could prosper outside the EU. He said yes. When the polls started shifting toward Brexit. He warned of a potential shock to the economy. When the polls wouldn't budge. He warned of job cuts. When the polls favoured Brexit. He then told us that we'd either lose our jobs or our lives in WW3. Absolutely despicable.

Looks as if he will get his victory as people have been frightened beyond all sense and reason, but the fallout from this will be thermo-nuclear. He will not survive into 2017. Sadly though it will be far to late for the once Great and proud Britain.

Economic concerns are absolutely fair game to bring into the debate, and they're real. If the leave campaign can demonstrate why we shouldn't worry, then why haven't they? I watched a leave campaign broadcast on the TV yesterday and all it did was repeat five or six times that we pay £350m per week to the EU, and suggest through a little scene with actors that if we left we'd get seen more quickly by an NHS doctor ( has anyone else seen it? It's genuinely terrible). Everyone with the capability to check up on the claims about the£350m knows that it's a very weak point, and yet that's their central argument that they deem worth repeating six times in a TV broadcast.

As for the rest of the chest thumping chimpy nationalist stuff, I don't have any time for that because I've got an iq higher than 75. If you want to bring back the British empire then go for it, get yourself a boat and go and invade some lands. Being in the EU isn't stopping you.

[Guest MattP]

As for the rest of the chest thumping chimpy nationalist stuff, I don't have any time for that because I've got an iq higher than 75. If you want to bring back the British empire then go for it, get yourself a boat and go and invade some lands. Being in the EU isn't stopping you.

 

  This is becoming the new "OMG you are such a sheep, go read your Daily Mail, mainstream media and vote Tory"

 

I've not heard any arguments yet about bringing back the British Empire, you are just making it up for a hyperbolic effect to try and very subtlety attach anyone campaigning for a Brexit to be a supposed little Englander.

[johnny the fox]

Just to ask, is there anyone on this whole forum that genuinely believes David Cameron's comments from just a few months saying if he didn't get a proper re-negotiation he might campaign to leave?

 

Given that a Brexit was actually going to result in war, job losses, financial destruction and recession?

The man lies when the truth would sound better...

[Dodgy Bob]

This is becoming the new "OMG you are such a sheep, go read your Daily Mail, mainstream media and vote Tory"

I've not heard any arguments yet about bringing back the British Empire, you are just making it up for a hyperbolic effect to try and very subtlety attach anyone campaigning for a Brexit to be a supposed little Englander.

Evoking the spirit of "once proud and great britain" is fairly hyperbolic too. I'm interested in facts not pretending that because we had an empire we'll suffer no ill effects from leaving the EU.

[Alf Bentley]

Sorry for the late reply, I can't do big posts and quote on a phone until I am back onto the PC in the week.

 

I think it's gone, barring some major cock up by remain people are just too scared to vote for leave, a UKIP voter I spoke to on Saturday is even voting remain as his boss has told how important it is to his job, if we are losing UKIP voters from the cause then we have no hope The more passionate supporters are clearly leave but I still think we are looking at a <50% turnout needed now for a Brexit victory and in reality it would be a travesty if such an important decision was won on such a low turnout as that, today's Telegraph is giving remain a leave among Men, Tory voters and pensioners, ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/23/eu-referendum-poll-pensioners-tory-voters-and-men-are-deserting/) - if there is any truth in that then we could even be looking at a hammering.

 

The Leave campaign has been very poor, I still maintain it was the right decision to leave Farage out in the cold but Kate Hoey and Frank Field should have been far more prominent, Boris had to be the frontman, this is a guy who could even win in one of the biggest Labour cities in the country but he's done a pretty poor job and his toouch of the Livingstone tourettes shamed him.

 

He might have played a absolute blinder himself though, secretly wanting a remain vote (I find it hard to believe anyone who so passionately argued for Turkey's inclusion just five years ago could seriously want us out) and getting it whilst also walzing into the Conservative leadership on the back of his supposed Eurosceptic credentials for an easy election win in 2020.

 

I still think Labour could be doing themselves huge damage on this though, not as bad as Scotland but similar mistakes could be being made, I think the Labour vote will be split about 70-30 in favour of remain and that's a lot of people to completely take one side against, the lessons of Indyref really should have been learnt and I think as a party they should have campaigned for a remain vote but also set out a vision to their own supporters of what a Labour government would do if the public decide to vote for a Brexit, they could even have gained some support with commitments to things like workers rights and other things a lot of their traditional support are concerned about in the event of a leave vote (I'd have course have liked the Tories to do the same thing but Cameron and Osborne are never going to set out a potential stall that could encourage people to end their careers)

 

There will be no higher level of debate, fear works and politicians know it.

 

Finally I;m delighted to see you back on your feet so quick, glad the operation went well and hope you recover as soon as possible.

 

 

Thanks for your good wishes. I've been ordered not to work or exert myself for a week, so might be on here a bit! 

 

Re. your earlier question: I can't imagine realistic circumstances under which Cameron would have campaigned for Leave (unless the EU had refused point blank to concede anything). He's always been pro-Remain. I presume he said he might support Leave to maximise concessions from the EU. It's a matter of opinion whether the concessions granted are meaningful (Brexiteers think not, Paul Mason disagrees).

 

Despite his gaffes, Boris may indeed have made the right choice for his personal career. I've read several articles suggesting that's all he's really interested in and that he'll adopt any political position that will help his self-advancement. If Leave wins he's in pole position to inherit immediately; if Remain win, he'll be well-placed to take over from Cameron in a couple of years. Gove has the Robin Cook problem (Cook himself said he could never be Labour leader as he was too ugly), "the quiet man" would lack all credibility and the predominantly Thatcherite MPs and party membership surely wouldn't accept Osborne? Boris needs to stop dribbling on about Hitler and bananas, though, or he could rule himself out.

 

If Remain do win, Cameron will surely be able to choose his own time of leaving. Maybe he'll announce that he has a couple of years of important business to enact and pre-announce his departure for 2018, hoping that circumstances allow Osborne to win by then? The Tory Right would surely struggle to launch an immediate coup against someone who'd just won the referendum. I presume there'll only be a coup against Cameron if Leave wins.

 

Although I certainly don't think the referendum is decided, it does sound bad for Leave if they're being deserted by Tory voters, pensioners and men - their strongest support base.

 

The campaign has been dominated by dishonesty and distortion. Lots of fear about economic consequences from Remain, a little bit of fear from Leave (e.g. "swamped by Turks"), but mostly unrealistic optimism from them: claiming that everything will be hunky dory, as if leaving the EU would be as simple and universally beneficial a process as upgrading to a better mobile. It's very likely that economic uncertainty would generate a downturn for at least a couple of years. How bad that would be is anyone's guess - and that alone isn't an argument for Remain. A couple of rough years of uncertainty, renegotiation and downturn followed by a gilded future of prosperity-for-all, harmonious relations with our European neighbours and greater democracy would be worth voting for. But it's hard to see any convincing argument that such a golden future awaits us in the medium/long-term. It's all guesswork and there are too many factors to tell how it might turn out - but it's just as easy to see how it might also turn out very badly in the longer-term: economic stagnation, trade disputes, loss of political influence, centralisation in Westminster instead of Brussels. 

 

As a Leftist, that's particularly true when the whole Leave campaign has seemingly been run by Thatcherites (with the odd loose cannon like Boris & Nigel thrown in....and Farage comes across better to many Labour voters than Boris). Especially when there's every chance that the Thatcherite Right will be in power nationally for a good while longer. Even though I wish Labour politicians had been more outspoken on BOTH sides of the debate, I doubt that Labour's (weak) support for Remain will damage it. A lot of traditional Labour voters might support Leave, but the EU isn't as central to them as it is to a certain section of the Right, more like a focus for general dissatisfaction with life. Labour might well lose votes to UKIP or others in 2020 due to low living standards, poor leadership, lack of vision, even immigration (if that stays high up the agenda), but not over the EU itself, I reckon.

 

I'm 80-20 Remain now. You might be cynical about that, thinking I'd never vote Leave, but that's not true. My instinct has always been to vote Remain, but I intend to vote on substance, not instinct. I'm dissatisfied with EU democracy (e.g. the crushing of Syriza), but is British democracy much better? I want to see wealth redistribution and social/environmental regulation of global capitalism - and will get more of that from the EU than from any conceivable UK government, particularly a Thatcherite one. I want Britain to stand up for itself with its neighbours, but we're as capable of doing that within the EU as outside, so opting to leave seems like a needlessly hostile act towards friends/friendly competitors.

 

The TTIP US-EU free trade deal still concerns me - and I'm not yet fully convinced that we'll have a proper democratic right to reject that, if we want, even though they reckon that it'll need to be approved by all 28 national parliaments. But if it does turn out to be as bad as some suggest (allowing US health companies an undemocratic legal right to asset-strip the NHS), surely other EU countries with bigger public sectors than us will also reject that. It's quite possible that TTIP will never be implemented - and if it is, would the UK really get a better trade deal negotiating alone with the US? And where would we be long-term if the US & EU did go ahead and we stayed outside? On what basis could we compete and succeed? Nice as it would be to imagine the UK becoming some sort of civilised, enlightened "new Sweden", what looks more likely is a combination of offshore financial centre, tax haven, high inequality and social squalor - especially given the current state of British politics.

[Guest CityFan 06]

I was wondering if the BBC might do a live poll on their website, like they did with the general election? Perhaps nearer the time but found it quite interesting to see live statistics. Unless I'm getting mixed up with something else...

 

Just found the online poll tracker on their website. 

[IrememberBobHazell]

Reading this one with interest.

 I totally agree that the Leave campaign have been at best anonymous and at worst very badly led. There are solid economic and intellectual reasons to leave (as there are to remain) but the Leave campaign are hammering away with some very basic points, money for the NHS for example, that are starting to be lost in amongst the barrage of economic fear laid down by the Remain side of the argument.

 I've got a degree in Politics, for my sins, and although I would find it easier to vote Leave the case they put forward is not winning me over, if anything its embarrassing me. The Remain campaign have by far the heavier political hitters on their side and are savvy enough to keep My Corbyn well out of the limelight.

[Thracian]

They are not British citizens.

Why should they have a vote in a British referendum?

 

 

I thought the reference was to Commonwealth people who'd become British citizens and lived here. My apologies. 

[Thracian]

The man lies when the truth would sound better...

 

 

i'm disillusioned with the bloke...and so much of the argument with people claiming this nonsense and that without actually explaining how they arrived at such conclusions.

 

A problem I have with the leave campaign - for all that I support it more strongly now than before - is their failure to paint a picture of the modus operandi to follow and what kind of agreements they anticipate in ensuring mutually-important ties remain.

 

Also, so much of the Remain campaign's commentary is short term and lacking any informed comment about the situation when new arrangements are actually established.

 

Cameron's been thoroughly disappointing and spoken with such a forked tongue I wish he'd resign.  It's as if he prefer's to ignore the huge problems that have been created these recent years to maintain the alternative inevitability of federalisation rather than examining those problems honestly and putting the country first.

 

There was even the grumbling about Boris Johnson's Nazi-connections reference but the connections are there for anyone to read and I've referred to them on here several times over the years for all that I actually believe in close connections and co-operation with Europe, but from a position of free choice and independence because this is probably the last chance we'll get to recover that independence and I really have little faith in the future without it.

 

There are simply too many misguided decisions being made and we will remain subject to so many flawed or unnecessary/ill-considered laws which have and will continue to harm,  hinder or oblige us against what may be better judgement either now or in the years to come .   .    

 

There's lots more reference but I've chosen these two links at random and the third as a reminder of what Johnson said.

 

http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-nazis-planned-eu-style-fourth-reich.html

 

http://www.india.com/news/world/former-london-mayor-boris-johnson-sparks-fury-by-comparing-eu-to-nazi-germany-1188455/

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/470967/The-EU-was-HITLER-S-idea-and-it-proves-Germany-WON-the-Second-World-War-claims-new-book

[Thracian]

The man lies when the truth would sound better...

 

 

I'd rather hear the truth whether it sounds better or not. 

[Thracian]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions....remember all the positive talk about the Arab spring?  now look at it...its the law of unforseen consequences...

 

 

 

Didn't the BBC lead in giving it that ridiculous handle? The sooner they're folded up with what now serves as a Labour Party the better. They don't know the meaning of "unbiased" but are simply becoming more shrewd in how they disguise it.     

[davieG]

i'm disillusioned with the bloke...and so much of the argument with people claiming this nonsense and that without actually explaining how they arrived at such conclusions.

 

A problem I have with the leave campaign - for all that I support it more strongly now than before - is their failure to paint a picture of the modus operandi to follow and what kind of agreements they anticipate in ensuring mutually-important ties remain.

 

Also, so much of the Remain campaign's commentary is short term and lacking any informed comment about the situation when new arrangements are actually established.

 

Cameron's been thoroughly disappointing and spoken with such a forked tongue I wish he'd resign.  It's as if he prefer's to ignore the huge problems that have been created these recent years to maintain the alternative inevitability of federalisation rather than examining those problems honestly and putting the country first.

 

There was even the grumbling about Boris Johnson's Nazi-connections reference but the connections are there for anyone to read and I've referred to them on here several times over the years for all that I actually believe in close connections and co-operation with Europe, but from a position of free choice and independence because this is probably the last chance we'll get to recover that independence and I really have little faith in the future without it.

 

There are simply too many misguided decisions being made and we will remain subject to so many flawed or unnecessary/ill-considered laws which have and will continue to harm,  hinder or oblige us against what may be better judgement either now or in the years to come .   .    

 

There's lots more reference but I've chosen these two links at random and the third as a reminder of what Johnson said.

 

http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-nazis-planned-eu-style-fourth-reich.html

 

http://www.india.com/news/world/former-london-mayor-boris-johnson-sparks-fury-by-comparing-eu-to-nazi-germany-1188455/

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/470967/The-EU-was-HITLER-S-idea-and-it-proves-Germany-WON-the-Second-World-War-claims-new-book

 

 

Reminds me of this which was circulating a few years back and someone has posted as a comment in one of those articles

 

The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, the British government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for short).

In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c". Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy.

Also, the hard "c" will be replaced with "k". Not only will this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will make words like "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" by "z" and "w" by " v".

During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst place....e announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. 

[Buzzell]

Can someone tell me the pros and cons of being part of the European Union and not being part of it.

[Countryfox]

Can someone tell me the pros and cons of being part of the European Union and not being part of it.

If we stay in someone tells us what to do ... If we get out we can make our own decisions ....

If we get out we can control immigration and not have to build so many houses and reduce the strain on all our public services.

If we stay in a lot of businesses and the people that own them would prosper.

[Raj]

I really want to make an educated vote BUT I listen to each side and think fook they both have decent views!!!

This is gonna be tough