Migrants - What's the answer?

[Grewks]

What a load of rubbish the argument of 'the actions of an individual doesn't represent the actions of many' is in this situation.

 

If just one of these migrants commits a crime which impacts upon a British national, then yes he/she should be deported, and we should stop helping any of them.

 

 

 

We owe these people nothing. Especially not the lives of our own people.

[Guest]

Isn't this just another example of:

 

Let's go fight a war (in our own econmic interest), "win", **** up the situation, sort out that situation (without thinking it through), **** up the solution, leave the situation (in a poor economic mess) Pay for the situation for the next century ?

[Rincewind]

My solution has never been making snide remarks and telling everyone I believe in fairness so you're not got that from me.

I am sorry if it  came across that way it was never meant to. I was only saying that there has been years of finding a solution without finding one. The  migrants are fleeing from a country where they have been terrorised. The Western world have bombed, negotiated  and sold them arms. We are still no closer to an answer but we still repeat the same things. I do not know the answer and after 40 plus pages noone on here seems to either. If I had an answer I would be headlines and famous overnight. So  I may as well agree with you or Thrac or  Oz Alf FIF or anyone on here as it  will not change anything.

I am sure that you believe in fairness too and have never thought otherwise.

[Frank to be]

I admire your optimism, but multicultralism aside from in areas that are rich is failing before your eyes.

Our own Prime Minister has admitted it's failed, now the same people are saying the same things all across Europe as him from Sweden to Germany and those in Eastern Europe who don't have it are refusing to even contemplate is as a form of society that they want in their own countries.

The irony is multicultralism probably could work if one group wasn't so far removed from the rest of the World as a collective.

Multiculturalism does work. Anyone who lives in or regularly visits Leicester or London or Manchester can see it working everyday. Cameron's comments were odd, and reeked of someone basing his views on opinion polls rather than getting out onto the streets and seeing what was really going on. Had he done that, he'd have seen Africans, Hindu's, Sikh's, Buddhists, South Americans, East Asians and natives all working and living together harmoniously. He'd have also seen the vast majority of Muslims joining in with society as well. What he meant by "failure" I don't know. The only failure I can see is the government's own failure to understand the society it rules over.

There are exceptions, pockets of areas where multiculturalism appears to be failing. But those areas aren't out of proportion in number or size. Even if the population was 100% white British, you would still have pockets of depravity, crime and social exclusion. Some of the most deprived areas in Britain are predominantly white. Immigrants do not cause proportionately more pockets of these areas.

[leicsmac]

What a load of rubbish the argument of 'the actions of an individual doesn't represent the actions of many' is in this situation.

If just one of these migrants commits a crime which impacts upon a British national, then yes he/she should be deported, and we should stop helping any of them.

We owe these people nothing. Especially not the lives of our own people.

The few hundred thousand dead Iraqi civilians from US and UK action beg to differ.

This was a situation that the West helped create, and so we do have an obligation to help sort it out.

Of course, opening the gates without any suitable screening procedure is an irredeemably stupid way of helping, and heads should roll on account of that.

[davieG]

The West may have been the catalyst / opened the can of worms but isn't this now a Muslim war fought between two different Muslim ideologies or is that being too simplistic. 

[Guest MattP]

Multiculturalism does work. Anyone who lives in or regularly visits Leicester or London or Manchester can see it working everyday. Cameron's comments were odd, and reeked of someone basing his views on opinion polls rather than getting out onto the streets and seeing what was really going on. Had he done that, he'd have seen Africans, Hindu's, Sikh's, Buddhists, South Americans, East Asians and natives all working and living together harmoniously. He'd have also seen the vast majority of Muslims joining in with society as well. What he meant by "failure" I don't know. The only failure I can see is the government's own failure to understand the society it rules over.

There are exceptions, pockets of areas where multiculturalism appears to be failing. But those areas aren't out of proportion in number or size. Even if the population was 100% white British, you would still have pockets of depravity, crime and social exclusion. Some of the most deprived areas in Britain are predominantly white. Immigrants do not cause proportionately more pockets of these areas.

 

But surely you have defeated your own argument here? If Cameron says these things and people go out and vote for him the numbers they did then the people obviously don't see multicultralism as the huge success you do, I've lived in Leicestershire all my life and I'd say we haven't really embraced it in the way you claim it's been a huge success, we effectively have a City that's divided into two, a vast majority of Asians live in the East and South of the City, you walk from town into the West side into Braunstone or New Parks and it's virtually all white.

 

We have "asian" and "white" bars in the Town centre on Saturday nights, we all know it exits and we don't really acknowledge it.

 

The few hundred thousand dead Iraqi civilians from US and UK action beg to differ.

This was a situation that the West helped create, and so we do have an obligation to help sort it out.

Of course, opening the gates without any suitable screening procedure is an irredeemably stupid way of helping, and heads should roll on account of that.

 

We've really got to stop this obsession we have with blaming ourselves for everything, yes the West fcuked up in Iraq but the situation across the Middle East wouldn't be too different now had we not gone in for that war, Syria would still a mess, Yemen would still be in the state it is now and the Arab spring would still have happened all over the shop that has caused huge distress and civil war everywhere.

 

This Corbynitus of making sure we blame the big bad West for every problem that has happened to be within reason, most of the migrants that appear to be trying to get into our own country are Eritrean according to the Red Cross and I don't think we can seriously blame ourselves for the ongoing civil wars across Africa.

 

We've made mistakes but let's get some perspective and as has been mentioned just because we have made places worse doesn't now mean our own citizens should have to suffer in some weird enforced revenge with liberal Westerners embracing and tolerating 6th century views towards women and gays.

[Guest]

But surely you have defeated your own argument here? If Cameron says these things and people go out and vote for him the numbers they did then the people obviously don't see multicultralism as the huge success you do, I've lived in Leicestershire all my life and I'd say we haven't really embraced it in the way you claim it's been a huge success, we effectively have a City that's divided into two, a vast majority of Asians live in the East and South of the City, you walk from town into the West side into Braunstone or New Parks and it's virtually all white.

 

We have "asian" and "white" bars in the Town centre on Saturday nights, we all know it exits and we don't really acknowledge it.

 

 

We've really got to stop this obsession we have with blaming ourselves for everything, yes the West fcuked up in Iraq but the situation across the Middle East wouldn't be too different now had we not gone in for that war, Syria would still a mess, Yemen would still be in the state it is now and the Arab spring would still have happened all over the shop that has caused huge distress and civil war everywhere.

 

 

 

But it would be very different in the UK.

[Guest MattP]

I am sorry if it  came across that way it was never meant to. I was only saying that there has been years of finding a solution without finding one. The  migrants are fleeing from a country where they have been terrorised. The Western world have bombed, negotiated  and sold them arms. We are still no closer to an answer but we still repeat the same things. I do not know the answer and after 40 plus pages noone on here seems to either. If I had an answer I would be headlines and famous overnight. So  I may as well agree with you or Thrac or  Oz Alf FIF or anyone on here as it  will not change anything.

I am sure that you believe in fairness too and have never thought otherwise.

 

No offence Ken, but it's all you do these days. No solutions, no alternatives, no ideas, no really opinions, just snidy comment after snidy comment followed by ridiculous hyperbole to try and put forward a point you haven't even bothered to make.

 

I no longer believe you when you say you are for fairness either, I don't believe anyone can be who is prepared to sacrifice everything in society just please the bottom 1% and makes every excuse in the book to try and excuse the most applling behaviour commited by some people, which you now do on a regular basis.

 

If someone is a migrant, refugee, muslim, disabled or on benefits, they can literally do nothing wrong that hasn't be caused by someone else, who in turn is always male, rich, white or a Tory - or ideally for you, a combination of all of them.

[Guest MattP]

But it would be very different in the UK.

 

Maybe, but from my memory of the Oldham/ Burnley/Rochdale riots and the already large scale report of grooming gangs long before any sort of war in the Middle East in the mid to late 90's, I doubt the problems within the Muslim community wouldn't have surfaced.

 

If anything now they just have the excuse to be alienated.

[Frank to be]

But surely you have defeated your own argument here? If Cameron says these things and people go out and vote for him the numbers they did then the people obviously don't see multicultralism as the huge success you do, I've lived in Leicestershire all my life and I'd say we haven't really embraced it in the way you claim it's been a huge success, we effectively have a City that's divided into two, a vast majority of Asians live in the East and South of the City, you walk from town into the West side into Braunstone or New Parks and it's virtually all white.

We have "asian" and "white" bars in the Town centre on Saturday nights, we all know it exits and we don't really acknowledge it.

.

I can't be sure of the full reasons why the 30% odd of the voting population who voted for the conservatives did so, but I doubt Cameron's "multiculturalism has failed" statement was particularly influential. I would have thought their perceived competence on the economy and lack of a perceived credible alternative were the main reasons. Anyone voting for Cameron forhis views on mmulticulturalism, must surely be disappointed that in his first five years he did nothing to stem the flow of immigrants, indeed has relied on immigration for his economic 'success'.

I won't pretend divisions don't exist between different cultures, but I would ask why it's important. There may be white bars and Asian bars, there are also young bars and old bars, poor bars and rich bars, rock bars and dance bars, real ale bars and alcopop bars etc. Divisions in and of themselves aren't a problem and are in fact natural. If your idea of a successful society is one where everyone goes to the same bars, joins their hands and dances and sings merry songs together then I'm afraid you'd be as disappointed by an exclusively white society as you are with one where some people have different coloured skin.

[Guest MattP]

I can't be sure of the full reasons why the 30% odd of the voting population who voted for the conservatives did so, but I doubt Cameron's "multiculturalism has failed" statement was particularly influential. I would have thought their perceived competence on the economy and lack of a perceived credible alternative were the main reasons. Anyone voting for Cameron forhis views on mmulticulturalism, must surely be disappointed that in his first five years he did nothing to stem the flow of immigrants, indeed has relied on immigration for his economic 'success'.

I won't pretend divisions don't exist between different cultures, but I would ask why it's important. There may be white bars and Asian bars, there are also young bars and old bars, poor bars and rich bars, rock bars and dance bars, real ale bars and alcopop bars etc. Divisions in and of themselves aren't a problem and are in fact natural. If your idea of a successful society is one where everyone goes to the same bars, joins their hands and dances and sings merry songs together then I'm afraid you'd be as disappointed by an exclusively white society as you are with one where some people have different coloured skin.

 

No my idea of a succesful society isn't where everyone goes to the same bars, joins their hands and dances and sings merry songs together, at the minute I'd just tolerate the most basic of British values and standards being upheld and our own government not comprimising them on every aspect of life from the courts to the banks to animal welfare. I think it's a rogue comparison to use bars, you will always have bars based on what music they play or drinks they serve (although I've never heard of an alcopo bar) but I don't think ones should ever really be based on the race of the customer, maybe I'm too idealistic though.

 

As for the politics, it was closer to 40% than 30% that voted for the Tories, but let's leave whether people voted for DC on that basis out of it and instead just get straight into direct polls on the subject to get a clearer picture.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/more-britons-believe-that-multiculturalism-makes-the-country-worse-not-better-says-poll-10366003.html

 

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/08/31/95-percent-of-bbc-viewers-think-multiculturalism-has-failed/

 

Those are the two most recent polls on google when searching "multicultralism poll) and both show that people believe it has or is failing, when the questions direct towards Islam and multiculturalism specifically the results become even worse for people's views on it, you can find polls lower down the page that show a positive viewpoint on it but as time goes on the views only appear to be going one way and you can imagine what the events of the last few months has done to this even further.

 

I suppose me and you have a very different definition of what multiculturalism is though, for me it's about integration and respect, for you it appears to be about change and tolerance whatever that will be.

[Merging Cultures]

http://metro.co.uk/2016/01/11/child-suffers-epileptic-seizure-on-school-bus-after-migrants-clash-with-police-5615475/

 

‘My information is that the bus taking the children through Calais was attacked by migrants,’ Highland councillor Drew Millar told BBC Radio Scotland.

‘There was damage done to the bus and they were able to continue on and were lucky no-one was injured.’

The Highland Council confirmed the bus had been ‘caught up in an incident between police and migrants.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/01/11/child-suffers-epileptic-seizure-on-school-bus-after-migrants-clash-with-police-5615475/#ixzz3x84SgrWe

[Merging Cultures]

definition of what multiculturalism is though, for me it's about integration and respect

 

That's what I believe in. Why move somewhere and stay segregated and do the same things you did at home? 

[Guest MattP]

That's what I believe in. Why move somewhere and stay segregated and do the same things you did at home? 

 

This is one of the biggest problems we have here, we have ghettos where you wouldn't even recognise you were in England, I remember going to Hall Green dog track and on e of the roads on the way in may as well have been in Lahore rather than Birmingham.

 

We have areas in certain places where children grow up without even learning English. Something Cameron was brave enough to address at the last Tory conference.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-says-there-are-parts-of-britain-where-people-dont-speak-english-a6684651.html

[Frank to be]

The vast majority do integrate just as much as different groups of white people integrate with each other. Some level of separation is inevitable.

The vast majority do show respect for "British values". Again, immigrants don't commit a disproportionately high amount of crime.

Ignoring media hyperbole, there's no evidence that on average immigrants respect British values any less than British people.

[Frank to be]

This is one of the biggest problems we have here, we have ghettos where you wouldn't even recognise you were in England, I remember going to Hall Green dog track and on e of the roads on the way in may as well have been in Lahore rather than Birmingham.

We have areas in certain places where children grow up without even learning English. Something Cameron was brave enough to address at the last Tory conference.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-says-there-are-parts-of-britain-where-people-dont-speak-english-a6684651.html

Why don't you tell us which road that was and then we can have a look on Google street view. I suspect what you saw was simply a row of shops with some Indian sounding names. Personally I love my local Asian supermarket, couldn't live without some of the food I buy from there. I can't comprehend why a foreign sounding shopfront would cause anyone such offence or disgust. Rather that than another pound land surely

[Guest MattP]

Why don't you tell us which road that was and then we can have a look on Google street view. I suspect what you saw was simply a row of shops with some Indian sounding names. Personally I love my local Asian supermarket, couldn't live without some of the food I buy from there. I can't comprehend why a foreign sounding shopfront would cause anyone such offence or disgust. Rather that than another pound land surely

 

Sorry I don't generally jot down road names in taxi journeys.

 

The fact you assumed it was "Indian sounding names" just shows how out of touch you are with regards to the areas you are talking about - We are very lucky in Leicester though, when we got mass immigration we got Sikhs and Hindu's rather than Muslims, I think (actually I'm certain) our City would be a very different place had we had the latter.

[Frank to be]

Sorry I don't generally jot down road names in taxi journeys.

The fact you assumed it was "Indian sounding names" just shows how out of touch you are with regards to the areas you are talking about - We are very lucky in Leicester though, when we got mass immigration we got Sikhs and Hindu's rather than Muslims, I think (actually I'm certain) our City would be a very different place had we had the latter.

I haven't had a reason to go to Birmingham for some time and can't recall ever going to see dog racing there, so yes I am unfamiliar, "out of touch" if you like with the particular, vaguely defined area you're talking about. Why don't you explain what you saw that offended you so much then? Did you see British values being disrespected? In what way? Crime? Terrorism? Or is it the mere presence in Birmingham of people who aren't white that offends you?

[Buce]

Sorry I don't generally jot down road names in taxi journeys.

The fact you assumed it was "Indian sounding names" just shows how out of touch you are with regards to the areas you are talking about - We are very lucky in Leicester though, when we got mass immigration we got Sikhs and Hindu's rather than Muslims, I think (actually I'm certain) our City would be a very different place had we had the latter.

That demographic is changing, though, Matt.; Highfields, St Matthew's and St. Peter's appear to have a majority of Muslim residents, Somalis largely.

[Guest MattP]

I haven't had a reason to go to Birmingham for some time and can't recall ever going to see dog racing there, so yes I am unfamiliar, "out of touch" if you like with the particular, vaguely defined area you're talking about. Why don't you explain what you saw that offended you so much then? Did you see British values being disrespected? In what way? Crime? Terrorism? Or is it the mere presence in Birmingham of people who aren't white that offends you?

 

Yes I assumed you would resort to this eventually, you always do, for a start I never said anything about being offended, I said the street looked like something from Lahore rather than Birmingham, I took that impression from the amount of halal shops, the number of mosques, the amount of women who had there faces covered wearing Niqab and what appeared to be a strict Islamic dress among the men as well, but as you say, if you aren't familiar with the area and it makes you feel better just assume I saw a few "Indian" shop signs and it's merely the presence of non white people "offending" me. I don't know why I bothered to engage you again, I won't do so again.

 

Given you are unfamilar with the area it makes the accusations you made even more bizarre, although I get the feeling from the outset of this your eventual intention was to get your version of a nicotine hit and try and smear someone as racist.

[Frank to be]

Yes I assumed you would resort to this eventually, you always do, for a start I never said anything about being offended, I said the street looked like something from Lahore rather than Birmingham, I took that impression from the amount of halal shops, the number of mosques, the amount of women who had there faces covered wearing Niqab and what appeared to be a strict Islamic dress among the men as well, but as you say, if you aren't familiar with the area and it makes you feel better just assume I saw a few "Indian" shop signs and it's merely the presence of non white people "offending" me. I don't know why I bothered to engage you again, I won't do so again.

Given you are unfamilar with the area it makes the accusations you made even more bizarre, although I get the feeling from the outset of this your eventual intention was to get your version of a nicotine hit and try and smear someone as racist.

Actually I've been trying to avoid that conclusion. It was Thracian's strict anti-immigration stance that prompted me to join this discussion as I feel that the basis of it - that immigration makes the country unsafe, is untrue since immigrants are not responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime.

You've then joined the discussion pointing out that regardless of the crime stats, you still have a problem with immigration. Since then I've merely been trying to understand exactly what that problem is, and you've mentioned disrespect of "British values", bars separated by race and some part of Birmingham looking like Lahore.

I don't know what British values are, or whether or not I even respect them, so I can't say too much on that. We discussed the idea that people will always find ways to separate themselves - we are a tribal species after all, we're posting on a football forum don't forget - and you agreed that bars aren't a very good example. And now finally we're talking about the Birmingham street that you went through and that, if not offended you, then confirmed in some other way that you were correct in being anti-immigration.

And finally you've added some detail: you don't like mosques, halal food shops and Islamic dress. You think that life would simply be better if you never had to see a mosque. You've got some reason for wanting to see absolutely everybody's face. A shop selling food you don't want to buy is an eyesore for everyone. Therefore, all immigration should be cancelled with immediate effect? Multicultralism has failed because you don't like halal food? Covering your face with cloth is an affront to British values?

[Guest MattP]

Just to clarify.

 

At no point did I say anything about crime stats, that I had a problem with immigration or that I wanted all immigration cancelled with immediate effect, or that it had failed because I don't like halal food.

[Thracian]

Actually I've been trying to avoid that conclusion. It was Thracian's strict anti-immigration stance that prompted me to join this discussion as I feel that the basis of it - that immigration makes the country unsafe, is untrue since immigrants are not responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime.

You've then joined the discussion pointing out that regardless of the crime stats, you still have a problem with immigration. Since then I've merely been trying to understand exactly what that problem is, and you've mentioned disrespect of "British values", bars separated by race and some part of Birmingham looking like Lahore.

I don't know what British values are, or whether or not I even respect them, so I can't say too much on that. We discussed the idea that people will always find ways to separate themselves - we are a tribal species after all, we're posting on a football forum don't forget - and you agreed that bars aren't a very good example. And now finally we're talking about the Birmingham street that you went through and that, if not offended you, then confirmed in some other way that you were correct in being anti-immigration.

And finally you've added some detail: you don't like mosques, halal food shops and Islamic dress. You think that life would simply be better if you never had to see a mosque. You've got some reason for wanting to see absolutely everybody's face. A shop selling food you don't want to buy is an eyesore for everyone. Therefore, all immigration should be cancelled with immediate effect? Multicultralism has failed because you don't like halal food? Covering your face with cloth is an affront to British values?

 

So you say on the one hand that I believe "immigration makes the country unsafe".

 

Then you illogically declare this to be "untrue - since immigrants are not responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime."

 

How does the one quote equate to the other? I've rarely read such nonsense.

 

Have I said immigrants are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime? No. I've not said it and not implied it.

 

I haven't got a clue whether the statement is true or not and doubt there's any reliable figures to be found because I'm quite sure that not every crime is recorded anyway. I could give you instances but I won't.

 

Proportions don't come into it.

 

If British citizens commit a million recorded crimes per year that might be (falsely) taken to say only one person in 70 (assuming a population of 70 miliion) commits crime            

      

If immigrants commit 200,000 crimes per year, the proportion of crimes committed by the overall population (70million plus immigrants) is lower than the "citizens' crime rate) ....but the country still has 200,000 extra  crimes and is therefore "less safe" by 200,000 crimes.  

 

Because what's important is that 200,000 crimes have been commited in this country that could have been entirely avoided. Crimes that have to be prosecuted at great cost in time and money and any sentencing will also cost significant amounts of money too.

 

Why would any country voluntarily import these extra crimes when they don't need to? Or any of the crimes that are not reported for various reasons and which, in my view, amount to a huge number and the evidence for that comment is there to be seen on a daily basis.

 

It doesn't matter if only the same proportion of crimes are committed by immigrants (proportionately) or if fewer crimes are committed by immigrants (proportionately) the fact is that none of those crimes need to have been imported at all. And if they hadn't the money saved could be used for far better purposes than trying people, keeping them in prison or whatever else in connection with post-crime expense.  

       

.    

[Darkon84]

Bloody hell Frank, talk about putting words in peoples mouths and jumping to conclusions. You've outdone yourself today