Migrants - What's the answer?

[Webbo]

Like I said, you're not convincing anyone.

[Guest MattP]

Most crimes are committed by men so I support open borders.

A more baffling logic is hard to find.

[EastAnglianFox]

I see Merkel has again been on the rant, at least this time she admits their is a problem but then proceeds to blame every man and his dog for what's happening thus making her entirely faultless..obviously!

I was raised to be a gent and taught to never raise my hand to a female,ever, but my god I'd be severely tested if I was ever lucky/unlucky enough to be within arms length of her.

Oz I do wonder what further atrocities would have to happen for you to admit that letting the masses cross freely into Europe was always going to be a disaster and is only going to get worse.

I try not to post much on this thread as it genuinely makes me so angry at times but echo totally what has been said above that the people who are still wanting these people to be allowed over in there masses really do seem ridiculously selfish, wishing to put millions of innocent western lives at stake just so it puts their moral ego at peace.

[J.Lisemore]

I see Merkel has again been on the rant, at least this time she admits their is a problem but then proceeds to blame every man and his dog for what's happening thus making her entirely faultless..obviously!

I was raised to be a gent and taught to never raise my hand to a female,ever, but my god I'd be severely tested if I was ever lucky/unlucky enough to be within arms length of her.

Oz I do wonder what further atrocities would have to happen for you to admit that letting the masses cross freely into Europe was always going to be a disaster and is only going to get worse.

I try not to post much on this thread as it genuinely makes me so angry at times but echo totally what has been said above that the people who are still wanting these people to be allowed over in there masses really do seem ridiculously selfish, wishing to put millions of innocent western lives at stake just so it puts their moral ego at peace.

 

Completely agree with you fella, it will only get worse unfortunately.

 

Yet there are still naïve people that picture a perfect world.

[leicsmac]

I see Merkel has again been on the rant, at least this time she admits their is a problem but then proceeds to blame every man and his dog for what's happening thus making her entirely faultless..obviously!

I was raised to be a gent and taught to never raise my hand to a female,ever, but my god I'd be severely tested if I was ever lucky/unlucky enough to be within arms length of her.

Oz I do wonder what further atrocities would have to happen for you to admit that letting the masses cross freely into Europe was always going to be a disaster and is only going to get worse.

I try not to post much on this thread as it genuinely makes me so angry at times but echo totally what has been said above that the people who are still wanting these people to be allowed over in there masses really do seem ridiculously selfish, wishing to put millions of innocent western lives at stake just so it puts their moral ego at peace.

 

You do realise that if what you're saying is true the vast majority of the people who want mass immigration (as misguided as that probably is) are taking a risk upon themselves as well as others around them, right? It's not like they can just shield themselves from the effect it would have and hit everyone else. That course of action would therefore be against their own self-interest as well.

 

I would agree with you that the evidence shows allowing immigration on this scale was a mistake, and you can call such people many things - but I think that 'selfish' isn't one of them.

 

Completely agree with you fella, it will only get worse unfortunately.

 

Yet there are still naïve people that picture a perfect world.

 

I know I've asked this question on here before but - what the fvck exactly is wrong with a little idealism? There may not ever be a perfect world, but there's nothing wrong with thinking and believing that all of it can be made at least a little better - not just a tiny little corner of it delineated by a couple of strokes of a pen however many hundred years ago. The Perfect Solution Fallacy is just that, a fallacy: just because we can't make things perfect, doesn't mean we can't take or think of steps to make things just a little bit better.

 

I mean, if we're all that cynical about humanity eventually getting along we may as well draw the curtain on the human race right now and hope the next "intelligent" species doesn't fvck things up quite as badly as we have.

 

(By the way, I'm not suggesting that what is going on with the migrants and their movement is a step to make things better, before it is said.)

[davieG]

You do realise that if what you're saying is true the vast majority of the people who want mass immigration (as misguided as that probably is) are taking a risk upon themselves as well as others around them, right? It's not like they can just shield themselves from the effect it would have and hit everyone else. That course of action would therefore be against their own self-interest as well.

 

I would agree with you that the evidence shows allowing immigration on this scale was a mistake, and you can call such people many things - but I think that 'selfish' isn't one of them.

 

 

Politicians, decision makers and other influential people on the whole don't live with or even come into contact with economic immigrants so I would suggest the risk to them is significantly less.

[leicsmac]

Politicians, decision makers and other influential people on the whole don't live with or even come into contact with economic immigrants so I would suggest the risk to them is significantly less.

 

Hence my use of the term 'vast majority'.

 

Look, there's no way this was a good idea, but it's being used as a generalisation stick to beat far too many people with when the blame should be laid at those who failed to regulate the immigration, those who created the situation in Syria in the first place (both Eastern and Western) and the leaders who didn't think it through (see previous two points).

 

Oh, and the powermongers on all sides who just want to see more people dead as it suits their own personal ideology.

[Guest MattP]

I know I've asked this question on here before but - what the fvck exactly is wrong with a little idealism? There may not ever be a perfect world, but there's nothing wrong with thinking and believing that all of it can be made at least a little better - not just a tiny little corner of it delineated by a couple of strokes of a pen however many hundred years ago. The Perfect Solution Fallacy is just that, a fallacy: just because we can't make things perfect, doesn't mean we can't take or think of steps to make things just a little bit better.

 

There is nothing wrong with having idealism, however when blind idealism effects policy that is implemented that then causes all sorts of unpleasentness for people it becomes a huge problem, decisions have to be taken with the head, not with the heart.

 

Watching the news now I'm filled with sadness again, if only the World got so upset about Erdogan's actual presidency as they did about Trump's potential presidency and we might solve a lot of problems currently happening on the planet.

[Guest MattP]

Hence my use of the term 'vast majority'.

 

Look, there's no way this was a good idea, but it's being used as a generalisation stick to beat far too many people with when the blame should be laid at those who failed to regulate the immigration, those who created the situation in Syria in the first place (both Eastern and Western) and the leaders who didn't think it through (see previous two points).

 

Oh, and the powermongers on all sides who just want to see more people dead as it suits their own personal ideology.

 

There was never any intention to regulate this immigration into Germany, that's partly why people are so angry.

 

The "refugees welcome" mob also had no intention of doing this, calling for us to open the borders and accept all comers regardless of where they came from or what their story was, remember a couple of months back when Angela Merkel was being mentioned for a nobel peace prize

[leicsmac]

There is nothing wrong with having idealism, however when blind idealism effects policy that is implemented that then causes all sorts of unpleasentness for people it becomes a huge problem, decisions have to be taken with the head, not with the heart.

 

Watching the news now I'm filled with sadness again, if only the World got so upset about Erdogan's actual presidency as they did about Trump's potential presidency and we might solve a lot of problems currently happening on the planet.

 

That I do agree with. Erdogan is a neo-Ottomanite, nothing more, nothing less, with his own agenda. It amazes me that so few other people see it.

 

Though the idea of Trump needing only to convince one other person in his cabinet to push the big red button with him scares me too.

[leicsmac]

There was never any intention to regulate this immigration into Germany, that's partly why people are so angry.

 

The "refugees welcome" mob also had no intention of doing this, calling for us to open the borders and accept all comers regardless of where they came from or what their story was, remember a couple of months back when Angela Merkel was being mentioned for a nobel peace prize

 

Fair enough, but as I said I still think there's far too much generalisation going on. The procedure is badly flawed, not the idea, and it was exploited perfectly by rapist scumbags and those who would use the situation to push their own agenda both.

 

Why the hell it wasn't regulated in the first place I don't know, and those who dropped the ball there - along with the two groups above - should swing.

[Guest MattP]

Fair enough, but as I said I still think there's far too much generalisation going on. The procedure is badly flawed, not the idea, and it was exploited perfectly by rapist scumbags and those who would use the situation to push their own agenda both.

 

Why the hell it wasn't regulated in the first place I don't know, and those who dropped the ball there - along with the two groups above - should swing.

 

Out of interest who do you mean here? Are you saying anyone against the mass migration of Muslims to Europe should shut up and be quiet over the mass sex assault that is occuring?

 

Because if you do I think that makes you as complicent in this as the media and police who appear to have been covering it up to try and defend the multicultural dream at any cost.

[leicsmac]

Out of interest who do you mean here? Are you saying anyone against the mass migration of Muslims to Europe should shut up and be quiet over the mass sex assault that is occuring?

 

Because if you do I think that makes you as complicent in this as the media and police who appear to have been covering it up to try and defend the multicultural dream at any cost.

 

Regarding those who would seek to push their own agenda, I'm talking about several parties: the ubernats who would use this as an excuse to demonise all Muslim migrants, the granola-guardianistas who say everything is hunky-dory and look to label anyone who voices perfectly legitimate concerns as a racist, and (most importantly) the ones in the shadows that want conflict for various reasons.

[Darkon84]

Even more reports of cover ups in Germany, with a police officer, wishing to remain anonymous giving an interview to Bild, explaining how they are told not to arrest migrants and accusations of racism if they do.

Yes I know the link is from RT, before anyone brings that up

 

https://www.rt.com/news/328628-german-police-officer-refugees/

[Thracian]

Even more reports of cover ups in Germany, with a police officer, wishing to remain anonymous giving an interview to Bild, explaining how they are told not to arrest migrants and accusations of racism if they do.

Yes I know the link is from RT, before anyone brings that up

 

https://www.rt.com/news/328628-german-police-officer-refugees/

 

Every incomer found guilty of assaulting those females,  or being party to those assaults, should be deported. It's no less than the effect of invited guests attacking their hosts. 

Just as important, anyone involved in issuing orders instructing police not to arrest the perpetrators on the grounds of racism should be suspended from duty, pending a public enquiry and the laws on racism re-examined and re-defined because they appear to be seriously flawed and not just in this instance.

The whole shameful catalogue of misbehaviour was a disgrace, and only a contemptuous variation of the kind of abuse girls have been subjected in so many towns and cities of the UK and all over Europe too over the last decade.

Among other things, there needs to be a significant points system for entry to any country in Europe, a lengthy qualification period for citizenship, strictly verified checks, and deportation for any serious crime committed while still qualifying for a UK passport - and all that as a minimum.

I'd also close the gates to anyone whose known, or apparent, behaviour and philosophies were considered to be significantly at odds with Western values, particularly in respect of people's freedoms and personal safety, both inside and outside the home.

Human Rights laws are there to enshrine the concept of all peoples safety - and that includes women.

Yet political decisions are made which evidently encourage what happened in Cologne - and elsewhere such as have occured in the towns and cities I mentioned above -   whether they are meant to or not.

And, whatever the motives of the ever-more clearly misguided social engineers of the Left, they should not be tolerated now or ever.

It's appalling and utterly neglectful of the duty to ensure the safety of women in this country, and the EU generally, and the more so if people in authority have acted to prevent arrests for whatever reasons.....allegations which ought to be be examined in any honestly conducted independent enquiry.

Any politicians found to be involved should bear their share of the responsibility and Angela Merkel should think about stepping down. In the end, she's in charge, the outrage has happened on her watch and her idiocy concerning immigration has backfired to unnecessarily - and quite predictably- impact on the safety of German streets.    

[Thracian]

Fair enough, but as I said I still think there's far too much generalisation going on. The procedure is badly flawed, not the idea, and it was exploited perfectly by rapist scumbags and those who would use the situation to push their own agenda both.

 

Why the hell it wasn't regulated in the first place I don't know, and those who dropped the ball there - along with the two groups above - should swing.

 

 

The idea, as well as the procedures are regularly, demonstrably and consistently shown to be flawed. It's a great pity in some ways but that's the truth. A massive and wide-ranging re-think is needed.     

[Rincewind]

They think and rethink for years only to find the simple solution is the final solution.

[Webbo]

They think and rethink for years only to find the simple solution is the final solution.

What's your solution Ken?

[Thracian]

You do realise that if what you're saying is true the vast majority of the people who want mass immigration (as misguided as that probably is) are taking a risk upon themselves as well as others around them, right? It's not like they can just shield themselves from the effect it would have and hit everyone else. That course of action would therefore be against their own self-interest as well.

 

I would agree with you that the evidence shows allowing immigration on this scale was a mistake, and you can call such people many things - but I think that 'selfish' isn't one of them.

 

 

I know I've asked this question on here before but - what the fvck exactly is wrong with a little idealism? There may not ever be a perfect world, but there's nothing wrong with thinking and believing that all of it can be made at least a little better - not just a tiny little corner of it delineated by a couple of strokes of a pen however many hundred years ago. The Perfect Solution Fallacy is just that, a fallacy: just because we can't make things perfect, doesn't mean we can't take or think of steps to make things just a little bit better.

 

I mean, if we're all that cynical about humanity eventually getting along we may as well draw the curtain on the human race right now and hope the next "intelligent" species doesn't fvck things up quite as badly as we have.

 

(By the way, I'm not suggesting that what is going on with the migrants and their movement is a step to make things better, before it is said.)

 

 

Anyone can have ideals - the important think is to think them through and consider not just the strengths but the weaknesses of those ideas in relation to all those affected.

 

Sadly people are seduced by their own enthusiasm to make a difference and rarely consider the potential flaws as coldly and honestly as they do the perceived benefits.

 

Anything with the potential to weaken something strong needs to be re-examined. And that is no less true of countries, families, workplace systems or materials such as metals or wood.

 

And a nation's responsibility, above all others, is to its people first. Each and every one of them. Ideas should increase their wellbeing rather than otherwise, and nothing should willingly be done to make their situation worse. 

 

That responsibility has massive implications when it comes to what should be willingly allowed to enter from outside, not just in terms of people but other things as well such as animals, plants, disease, pollution and more. 

[leicsmac]

The idea, as well as the procedures are regularly, demonstrably and consistently shown to be flawed. It's a great pity in some ways but that's the truth. A massive and wide-ranging re-think is needed.     

 

The idea of helping people in a warzone that you and your allies helped create is flawed? Not buying that.

 

The idea is fine - the execution was utterly piss poor.

 

Anyone can have ideals - the important think is to think them through and consider not just the strengths but the weaknesses of those ideas in relation to all those affected.

 

Sadly people are seduced by their own enthusiasm to make a difference and rarely consider the potential flaws as coldly and honestly as they do the perceived benefits.

 

Anything with the potential to weaken something strong needs to be re-examined. And that is no less true of countries, families, workplace systems or materials such as metals or wood.

 

And a nation's responsibility, above all others, is to its people first. Each and every one of them. Ideas should increase their wellbeing rather than otherwise, and nothing should willingly be done to make their situation worse. 

 

That responsibility has massive implications when it comes to what should be willingly allowed to enter from outside, not just in terms of people but other things as well such as animals, plants, disease, pollution and more. 

 

I agree with you that logic is a better driver of human progress most of the time, and that decisions (particularly big ones) should be considered and weighed carefully.

 

I understand your point of view regarding the nation state and its duty to its citizens - it makes sense. But I don't agree with it purely because of my own view on the nation-state itself.

[Rincewind]

What's your solution Ken?

I'll go along with yours until somebody comes up with a better one.

[Thracian]

The idea of helping people in a warzone that you and your allies helped create is flawed? Not buying that.

 

The idea is fine - the execution was utterly piss poor.

 

 

I agree with you that logic is a better driver of human progress most of the time, and that decisions (particularly big ones) should be considered and weighed carefully.

 

I understand your point of view regarding the nation state and its duty to its citizens - it makes sense. But I don't agree with it purely because of my own view on the nation-state itself.

 

 

 

The idea is and was predictably flawed. As for warfare in the Middle East I was  vehemently against the original war in Iraq and still believe Tony Blair should be answerable for his initial lies - and the wholesale deceit of the British people in opening the floodgates to immigrants.

[Frank to be]

Various studies have been done that look at immigration and crime levels and none of them have found that immigration causes proportionately more crime. Granted what has happened in Germany is a bit of a mess but to use that to wholesale criticise immigration to the UK is a bit... well it's a bit 1970s frankly.

The truth is and always has been that the vast majority of immigrants get on fine within society and work and are of benefit to the country.

[Webbo]

I'll go along with yours until somebody comes up with a better one.

My solution has never been making snide remarks and telling everyone I believe in fairness so you're not got that from me.

[Guest MattP]

Various studies have been done that look at immigration and crime levels and none of them have found that immigration causes proportionately more crime. Granted what has happened in Germany is a bit of a mess but to use that to wholesale criticise immigration to the UK is a bit... well it's a bit 1970s frankly.

The truth is and always has been that the vast majority of immigrants get on fine within society and work and are of benefit to the country.

 

I admire your optimism, but multicultralism aside from in areas that are rich is failing before your eyes.

 

Our own Prime Minister has admitted it's failed, now the same people are saying the same things all across Europe as him from Sweden to Germany and those in Eastern Europe who don't have it are refusing to even contemplate is as a form of society that they want in their own countries.

 

The irony is multicultralism probably could work if one group wasn't so far removed from the rest of the World as a collective.