MooseBreath Posted 30 November 2015 Posted 30 November 2015 Free vote for Labour on Syria air strikes it is, then. Probably didn't have much choice on that, really. In other news, this Mark Clarke character's a bit of a charmer, isn't he? Always makes my mind boggle on how these (alleged) tosspots get into a position of responsibility in any organisation - everybody sees the train about to crash, but nobody does anything about it. In other, other news, the world leaders seem to be taking the whole climate change thing seriously for a change, so maybe we won't all die within a couple of generations after all, eh Moose? Half of us were already supposed to be dead if the predictions from 20 years ago were anywhere near correct. Thankfully they weren't and we're still waiting for any genuine evidence of an increase in the temperature.
Guest MattP Posted 30 November 2015 Posted 30 November 2015 Told this this Tatler Tory story would run didn't I Alf? He really does look and sound like a vile human being, I think half the problem with it is the Tories struggle so much for ground activists they'll take anyone that could organise a large and willing group. Corbyn gives a free vote on Syria, I'm surprised, just this morning Diane Abbott was saying on the today program doing that would be giving in to the government, I think it's right personally but it does seem shambolic we'll now have an opposition government with no official position on whether we should go to war or not. Small aside regarding Thurs, appears Labour again are attending sex segregated rallies, they clearly now need the Muslim vote to hold off UKIP in the North but can they really be seen to be condoning this in 2015?
Guest MattP Posted 30 November 2015 Posted 30 November 2015 Apologies for grammar typing on phone is a nightmare at the minute as keypad is playing up.
Rincewind Posted 30 November 2015 Posted 30 November 2015 Apologies for grammar typing on phone is a nightmare at the minute as keypad is playing up. Stop using my excuses.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 30 November 2015 Posted 30 November 2015 Told this this Tatler Tory story would run didn't I Alf? He really does look and sound like a vile human being, I think half the problem with it is the Tories struggle so much for ground activists they'll take anyone that could organise a large and willing group. Corbyn gives a free vote on Syria, I'm surprised, just this morning Diane Abbott was saying on the today program doing that would be giving in to the government, I think it's right personally but it does seem shambolic we'll now have an opposition government with no official position on whether we should go to war or not. Small aside regarding Thurs, appears Labour again are attending sex segregated rallies, they clearly now need the Muslim vote to hold off UKIP in the North but can they really be seen to be condoning this in 2015? It is almost as if Corbyn is just trying to create the most ineffective opposition we've seen. It amuses me seeing the mass of lefties at uni all sprouting this 'We stand with Corbyn' shite no matter what the guy does. If only we had a bunch of UKIP in there to stand with the SNP in opposing these strikes though trying to make that point to people here is impossible such is the toxicity of the UKIP brand
Jon the Hat Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 I don't see the issue on bombing ISIS in Syria. We already approved the bombing of them in Iraq. You cant tell me that they pay attention to the border, or that UK planed hitting their Syrian camps instead of Iraqi, or UK instead of US or French planes is going to increase the risk to the UK. The last Syria vote was about whether we should Bomb the Syrian Army / Government forces. Not the same thing. It is almost as if Corbyn is just trying to create the most ineffective opposition we've seen. It amuses me seeing the mass of lefties at uni all sprouting this 'We stand with Corbyn' shite no matter what the guy does.If only we had a bunch of UKIP in there to stand with the SNP in opposing these strikes though trying to make that point to people here is impossible such is the toxicity of the UKIP brand Having an opposition this crap is not a good thing at all.
Rincewind Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 The case for bombing ISIS: Explained. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/30/the-case-for-bombing-isis-explained_n_8681022.html?1448889978
Jon the Hat Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 The case for bombing ISIS: Explained. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/30/the-case-for-bombing-isis-explained_n_8681022.html?1448889978 What is your alternative? Let ISIS take over the middle east and see what happens?
Rincewind Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 What is your alternative? Let ISIS take over the middle east and see what happens? Was not the same said about Iraq?
MooseBreath Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 The case for bombing ISIS: Explained. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/30/the-case-for-bombing-isis-explained_n_8681022.html?1448889978 A very respectable piece by the author of other highly regarded articles such as "Doug the pug can't get enough of his pumpkin spice latte" and "Cats who are terrified of cucumbers". www.huffpost.com/uk/author/ryan-barrell
Guest MattP Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 I don't see the issue on bombing ISIS in Syria. We already approved the bombing of them in Iraq. You cant tell me that they pay attention to the border, or that UK planed hitting their Syrian camps instead of Iraqi, or UK instead of US or French planes is going to increase the risk to the UK. The last Syria vote was about whether we should Bomb the Syrian Army / Government forces. Not the same thing. Having an opposition this crap is not a good thing at all. Spot on, I'm surprised at how big an issue this actually is being put forward as, it's effectively just us crossing the border and dropping bombs against IS in Syria as well as Iraq, the way people are going on you would think we were committing ground troops to this. One bloke on my facebook page claimed he was crying because we are going to war, he didn't even realise until it was pointed out we were already striking against them across the border, it gives the protestors a day out though. Was not the same said about Iraq? Come on Ken, the difference between Iraq ans Syria is huge, for a start one has been in a state of civil war for years. This isn't about regime change now, it's not a promise to solve the problems of the internal fighting, it's about combining with our allies to destroy Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. A UN resolution has been passed as well. Huff Post is awful to be honest. Just a rag for left wing journalists who can't even get a job at papers like the Mirror or the Grauniad.
Buce Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 He does make some valid points, though. It's not like IS isn't being bombed already; how will a few British bombs change anything? Also, Raqqa (sp?) might be the de facto capital of IS, but I would guess that there are more civilians there than fighters. I agree that something has to be done - we have a moral responsibility, imo - but I'm not convinced that dropping a few more bombs is going to change anything. It's a fvcking mess.
Guest MattP Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 He does make some valid points, though. It's not like IS isn't being bombed already; how will a few British bombs change anything? Also, Raqqa (sp?) might be the de facto capital of IS, but I would guess that there are more civilians there than fighters. I agree that something has to be done - we have a moral responsibility, imo - but I'm not convinced that dropping a few more bombs is going to change anything. It's a fvcking mess. I agree, the idea we have 70,000 fighters ready is a nonsense as well, these aren't moderates at all, they are barely any better than ISIS but at least they aren't an immediate danger to the wider region, a few more bombs won;t do much but the more countries that take a leading role the better, ISIS are actually losing ground in Iraq and gaining it in Syria, that is a case for airstrikes for me although I'm still not certain I'd vote for this. I don't envy MP's at all on weeks like this, tough decision. We are long past any sort of economic sanctions as well, the Syrian economy is a wartime one now, the only currency worth having is people or guns to trade or sell.
Guest MattP Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 We finally have some polling for Oldham despite it coming from the dubious souce of the Ladbrokes bookmaker 42% - Labour 37% - UKIP 14% - Conservatives 6% - Lib Dems 1% - Green The three factors that will determine the seat, 1. The amount of ex Labour working class voters saying they'll vote for aUKIP who actually go out and bother to do so. 2. How much of the Muslim vote Labour can get out to the polling stations on the day. 3. Whether the Conservative vote holds up or collapses as they tactically vote for UKIP to beat Labour. I do think Labour will cling onto this seat by the skin of it's teeth, I just hope there isn't as funny stuff.
Thracian Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 It is almost as if Corbyn is just trying to create the most ineffective opposition we've seen. It amuses me seeing the mass of lefties at uni all sprouting this 'We stand with Corbyn' shite no matter what the guy does. If only we had a bunch of UKIP in there to stand with the SNP in opposing these strikes though trying to make that point to people here is impossible such is the toxicity of the UKIP brand Someone described Corbyn as a "student" rather than a "statesman" and they got it exactly right.
Rincewind Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 Interesting POV. A student indeed? I see Corbyn as a man who is calm and collected and is not prone to knee jerk reactions. He does not lose his temper when insulted and sticks to his principles. I respect him for those attributes which are rare in modern day politics. Whether these qualities fit in with modern politics is debatable. He seems to be too much of a nice and honest man to change. I reserve judgement as time will tell.
Guest MattP Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 Interesting POV. A student indeed? I see Corbyn as a man who is calm and collected and is not prone to knee jerk reactions. He does not lose his temper when insulted and sticks to his principles. I respect him for those attributes which are rare in modern day politics. Whether these qualities fit in with modern politics is debatable. He seems to be too much of a nice and honest man to change. I reserve judgement as time will tell. If you still seriously rate Corbyn even after these last couple of weeks, I don't think he could do anything that would change your mind. Personally I see him as an academic in the real world, a protestor trying to be a politician and above all, the man who has created the most incompetent shadow cabinet in the history of British politics, it's just a shame it wll probably end soon.
RobHawk Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 What is your alternative? Let ISIS take over the middle east and see what happens? You have to look at what caused the vacuum in Syria that allowed ISIS to go in and recruit heavily. The root cause of this (in Syria) was Assad turning on his own people. Therefore in order to truly deal with ISIS, rather than continue this spiral of creating terror, we need to get rid of Assad, so that Syria can again be returned to its people. This, along with other measures, would stop the ISIS recruitment within Syria at source. All bombing ISIS (and undoubtedly civilians) does, is make more young people in the middle east disenfranchised with the messages of the west and drives them towards organisation like ISIS. ISIS couldn't take over the middle east, they are based in the 2 country's where a huge political vacuum has occurred in recent times. Iraq was our fault, and we continue to try and support the Iraqi government in overcoming ISIS, But Syria was Assads and as long as he is there, we shouldn't get involved!
Dr The Singh Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 If you still seriously rate Corbyn even after these last couple of weeks, I don't think he could do anything that would change your mind. Personally I see him as an academic in the real world, a protestor trying to be a politician and above all, the man who has created the most incompetent shadow cabinet in the history of British politics, it's just a shame it wll probably end soon. I hope Corbyn is around for a few years, he certainly has made politics more interesting. I hope he wins the next election and Trump wins in the US, I'm foooking off to the poonjab and watch that disaster and laugh
Guest MattP Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 I hope Corbyn is around for a few years, he certainly has made politics more interesting. I hope he wins the next election and Trump wins in the US, I'm foooking off to the poonjab and watch that disaster and laugh We certainly agree there! The Republican party might be going through the same process as the Labour party here, hijacked by fringe extremists who will just refuse to pick a serious candidate, Donald Trump He's basically Nick Griffin with a hotel chain and a few billion quid.
Guest MattP Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 You have to look at what caused the vacuum in Syria that allowed ISIS to go in and recruit heavily. The root cause of this (in Syria) was Assad turning on his own people. Therefore in order to truly deal with ISIS, rather than continue this spiral of creating terror, we need to get rid of Assad, so that Syria can again be returned to its people. This, along with other measures, would stop the ISIS recruitment within Syria at source. Wasn't this exactly the same line we used to get rid of Gaddafi in Libya and Hussein in Iraq? If we get rid of Assad all we get again is different factions fighting a civil war.
Dr The Singh Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 Wasn't this exactly the same line we used to get rid of Gaddafi in Libya and Hussein in Iraq? If we get rid of Assad all we get again is different factions fighting a civil war. I agree, the only way to resolve the issue in the middle east, is to restore dictators in each region that will work with the West. Assad maybe that man for Syria, or we find a man that is. There will be a whole set of new nations, new alliance, the region is not ready for democracy.
Rincewind Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 If you still seriously rate Corbyn even after these last couple of weeks, I don't think he could do anything that would change your mind. Personally I see him as an academic in the real world, a protestor trying to be a politician and above all, the man who has created the most incompetent shadow cabinet in the history of British politics, it's just a shame it wll probably end soon. No I am not into Corbyn. But I am definitely not into Cameron who I find false and has no connection with none but his followers. As I and others have said some of his political manner may not be right but he has principles and cares about those not so fortunate in society. I shall now leave you to your Bash Corbyn thread as rational posts are not allowed.
RobHawk Posted 1 December 2015 Posted 1 December 2015 Wasn't this exactly the same line we used to get rid of Gaddafi in Libya and Hussein in Iraq? If we get rid of Assad all we get again is different factions fighting a civil war. Its a fair point but aren't we already there? The conflict in Syria has more sides than a dodecagon!
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