General Election, June 8th

[Alf Bentley]

9 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Yet again with the "smears and mudslinging". Are you saying there's no truth in it?

 

I explained my views at length several days ago, the last time you raised this smear.

 

Corbyn supported the Republican movement, Troops Out, a united Ireland (and was not a mere peacemaker as Ken suggests). After the age of 21, I strongly disagreed with his stance. He kept some dodgy company and attended questionable ceremonies,

 

But to claim that he supported the IRA you need better evidence than guilt by association - clear words or actions, and you haven't presented any,

 

If guilt by association is enough, Thatcher was best mates with Pinochet at the same time - a bloke known to have ordered the murder and torture of thousands....and she's your heroine, isn't she?

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I explained my views at length several days ago, the last time you raised this smear.

 

Corbyn supported the Republican movement, Troops Out, a united Ireland (and was not a mere peacemaker as Ken suggests). After the age of 21, I strongly disagreed with his stance. He kept some dodgy company and attended questionable ceremonies,

 

But to claim that he supported the IRA you need better evidence than guilt by association - clear words or actions, and you haven't presented any,

 

If guilt by association is enough, Thatcher was best mates with Pinochet at the same time - a bloke known to have ordered the murder and torture of thousands....and she's your heroine, isn't she?

Corbyn was mates with Gerry Adams, a commander in the IRA who ordered the torture and death of at least dozens.

[Finnaldo]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

So are Iran the good guys?

 

Nope, but ISIS certainly aren't and as we have recently seen a much graver threat to our national security.

 

So are you going vote to for a leader who arms terrorist sympathisers?

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Who doesn't? Look at Corbyn and the things he has said about the Castro regime, no one in the World doesn't have some double standards on these issues.

 

I agree entirely, hence my point that both sides trying to score points about this particular issue (and the Tories bringing it up as a point of debate) is ridiculous.

 

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

What do you want us to do about? Stop selling them arms so the Russians can instead? Refuse to buy their oil? Sometimes your allies aren't nice people, but you have to make the best of things.

 

Most certainly you do have to make the best of things. I'm just noting the double standard that we shake hands with one set of nasty folks who do nasty things, while decrying other folks who do equally nasty things as "terrorists".

[Webbo]

Just now, leicsmac said:

I agree entirely, hence my point that both sides trying to score points about this particular issue (and the Tories bringing it up as a point of debate) is ridiculous.

 

Most certainly you do have to make the best of things. I'm just noting the double standard that we shake hands with one set of nasty folks who do nasty things, while decrying other folks who do equally nasty things as "terrorists".

Corbyn is standing to be PM in a country where he thought British Citizens were legitimate targets for terrorists.Not just the IRA either,every conflict in the world is somehow our fault, whoever we're against, he's for.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

43 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Note sure mine eat unbranded foodstuffs.  Except Waitrose obviously.

#votetory

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Corbyn is standing to be PM in a country where he thought British Citizens were legitimate targets for terrorists.Not just the IRA either,every conflict in the world is somehow our fault, whoever we're against, he's for.

May is standing to be PM when she thinks selling arms to a country that has heavy ties to an organisation that targets British citizens right now is a good idea.

 

We can go round and round like this all day, or we can do as Matt already posited and say that everyone has a double standard at work here.

[Webbo]

Just now, leicsmac said:

May is standing to be PM when she thinks selling arms to a country that has heavy ties to an organisation that targets British citizens right now is a good idea.

 

We can go round and round like this all day, or we can do as Matt already posited and say that everyone has a double standard at work here.

Tenuous.

 

Look if you want to vote for someone who supports murderers that your prerogative but I'm not going to pretend it never happened.

[Alf Bentley]

7 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I love how the tories keep getting the blame for Labour's war. 

 

Bush & Blair deserve the main blame for the Iraq War and its consequences. But a very large minority of Labour MPs, including Corbyn, saw through Campbell's dodgy dossier - as did a handful of Tories and all the Lib Dems.

The overwhelming majority of Tory MPs, including Theresa May, voted to support the war, indeed some had been calling for Blair not to even bother trying to get a UN resolution. 

On the first vote (amendment calling for a delay and for UN investigations to continue), if the Tories had supported that en masses, Blair would have lost the vote.

 

I was on the mass march against the Iraq War, with 1-2 million others. Were you? 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Tenuous.

 

Look if you want to vote for someone who supports murderers that your prerogative but I'm not going to pretend it never happened.

Of course. As the other side don't pretend the Pinochet supporting before and the Saudi supporting now never happened either.

 

I know you'll likely disagree, but in this one case...both views are equally valid or invalid.

[Webbo]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

Bush & Blair deserve the main blame for the Iraq War and its consequences. But a very large minority of Labour MPs, including Corbyn, saw through Campbell's dodgy dossier - as did a handful of Tories and all the Lib Dems.

The overwhelming majority of Tory MPs, including Theresa May, voted to support the war, indeed some had been calling for Blair not to even bother trying to get a UN resolution. 

On the first vote (amendment calling for a delay and for UN investigations to continue), if the Tories had supported that en masses, Blair would have lost the vote.

 

I was on the mass march against the Iraq War, with 1-2 million others. Were you? 

No, I've never made a big deal about the Iraq War. Saddam was a bad bastard and deserved what he got. The aftermath of the War was a disaster but I don't think Theresa May voted for that.

[Alf Bentley]

15 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Corbyn was mates with Gerry Adams, a commander in the IRA who ordered the torture and death of at least dozens.

 

Source re. Adams' role?

Source re. torture and death of dozens?

 

While McGuinness is confirmed to have been an IRA commander, Adams has always denied it, as I understand.

As for "mates"....again, source? Active sympathiser with the Republican cause, certainly (and wrongly, in my view).

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

No, I've never made a big deal about the Iraq War. Saddam was a bad bastard and deserved what he got. The aftermath of the War was a disaster but I don't think Theresa May voted for that.

Obviously not, but perhaps those consequences should have been better predicted and considered by those who voted for it?

 

Unintended consequences are still consequences.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Source re. Adams' role?

Source re. torture and death of dozens?

 

While McGuinness is confirmed to have been an IRA commander, Adams has always denied it, as I understand.

As for "mates"....again, source? Active sympathiser with the Republican cause, certainly (and wrongly, in my view).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRA_Army_Council

 

He invited Adams to the HoCs a few times, shook his hand.

[Alf Bentley]

15 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Corbyn is standing to be PM in a country where he thought British Citizens were legitimate targets for terrorists.Not just the IRA either,every conflict in the world is somehow our fault, whoever we're against, he's for.

 

Source?

 

Otherwise, it's just blinkered partisan bigotry.

 

Have you condemned the Bloody Sunday massacre yet? Would you like to do so now?

 

I really would prefer to talk about 2017.......

[Webbo]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

Source?

 

Otherwise, it's just blinkered partisan bigotry.

 

Have you condemned the Bloody Sunday massacre yet? Would you like to do so now?

 

I really would prefer to talk about 2017.......

He supported the IRA, it's no secret what the IRA did.

 

If you want to talk about 2017 I'm not trying to stop you.

[Webbo]

Back to 2017;

The FT has come out for the tories.

Quote

 

“This publication stands for a liberal agenda: a small state, free trade, free markets and social justice. Neither Mrs May nor Mr Corbyn stands four-square behind these principles. Neither has offered tax and spending plans that are credible, given the short-term risks facing the economy…

The alternative to Mrs May is worse. Mr Corbyn is a fringe figure who has spent his entire political career in opposition — to his own Labour leadership. Despite his recent media makeover, he is a pacifist relic of the 1970s, in hock to the trade unions, with no grip on economic issues. It is no accident that the arrival of Mr Corbyn and his hard-left supporters in mainstream politics has coincided with a revival of anti-Semitism and misogyny. Labour’s team are unfit for government, let alone the delicate Brexit talks. The Liberal Democrats have failed to make an impact with their pledge of a second EU referendum…

Faced with such uncertainty at home and abroad, Mrs May is the safer bet.”

 

 

[Buce]

Just now, Webbo said:

Back to 2017;

The FT has come out for the tories.

 

 

In other news, the Pope has come out for the Catholics..

[Webbo]

Just now, Buce said:

 

In other news, the Pope has come out for the Catholics..

They've supported Neil Kinnock's Labour party in the past.

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRA_Army_Council

 

He invited Adams to the HoCs a few times, shook his hand.

 

So, the governments claimed that he was a member of the IRA Army Council and he denied it. No real evidence?

 

No evidence at all of him "ordering the torture and death of at least dozens", I note...... That's slander or libel, isn't it?

 

At any time from 1983 until recently (except 92-97), Adams was entitled to sit in the Commons as an MP - and a lot of people have since shaken his hand, to very useful effect (better effect than Corbyn, frankly).

[Webbo]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

So, the governments claimed that he was a member of the IRA Army Council and he denied it. No real evidence?

 

No evidence at all of him "ordering the torture and death of at least dozens", I note...... That's slander or libel, isn't it?

 

At any time from 1983 until recently (except 92-97), Adams was entitled to sit in the Commons as an MP - and a lot of people have since shaken his hand, to very useful effect (better effect than Corbyn, frankly).

Okay, he was Martin McGuinness's mate if you prefer.

[Alf Bentley]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Okay, he was Martin McGuinness's mate if you prefer.

 

As Thatcher was Pinochet's mate and Saddam's mate, and as May was Alistair Campbell's mate.

 

I'd prefer to talk about 2017 (but have to go for a bit now, anyway).

 

Seriously, this is such an important election, so many important issues to discuss - and plenty of scope to criticise Corbyn for current policy (I'd agree with some of your criticisms).

Why keep smearing on about IRA 80s/90s?

[Sharpe's Fox]

JC tonight

 

[Alf Bentley]

14 minutes ago, Webbo said:

He supported the IRA, it's no secret what the IRA did.

 

If you want to talk about 2017 I'm not trying to stop you.

 

I see that you've replied to my question about Bloody Sunday but have chosen not to condemn it. I presume that you won't condemn it, will you?

 

Will you condemn the corrupt imprisonment of innocent men (Guildford 4, Birmingham 6 etc.)?

Did you think they were guilty? Did you call for their execution? Plenty of right-wingers did. Do you now condemn their corrupt imprisonment - in place of the proper IRA terrorists (widely believed to be the Balcombe Street Gang), who deserved imprisonment but evaded justice because the wrong people were banged up?

[Webbo]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

I see that you've replied to my question about Bloody Sunday but have chosen not to condemn it. I presume that you won't condemn it, will you?

 

Will you condemn the corrupt imprisonment of innocent men (Guildford 4, Birmingham 6 etc.)?

Did you think they were guilty? Did you call for their execution? Plenty of right-wingers did. Do you now condemn their corrupt imprisonment - in place of the proper IRA terrorists (widely believed to be the Balcombe Street Gang), who deserved imprisonment but evaded justice because the wrong people were banged up?

I was a child when Bloody Sunday/The Birmingham 5/Guildford 4 things happened. I'll condemn any illegal action that happened, I've never been in favour of the death penalty.