General Election, June 8th

[Guest]

UK's growth now the slowest in the G7

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/may/31/pound-hung-parliament-eurozone-inflation-unemployment-business-live

[Alf Bentley]

 

39 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If he's a straight talking why won't he admit he supported the IRA?

 

If we're going to concentrate on mud-slinging about politics in the 1980s/90s, why won't you admit that your party supported Apartheid, the murderous dictator Pinochet (blamed for more deaths than the IRA) and approved sales of WMDs to Saddam Hussein? You see, any old cynic can indulge in partisan smear stories about the past.

 

Alternatively, how about concentrating on the politics of the present: Brexit, the economy, public services, the deficit, leadership, social care, immigration, defence, pensions, whatever....?  

 

[leicsmac]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

If we're going to concentrate on mud-slinging about politics in the 1980s/90s, why won't you admit that your party supported Apartheid, the murderous dictator Pinochet (blamed for more deaths than the IRA) and approved sales of WMDs to Saddam Hussein? You see, any old cynic can indulge in partisan smear stories about the past.

 

Alternatively, how about concentrating on the politics of the present: Brexit, the economy, public services, the deficit, leadership, social care, immigration, defence, pensions, environmental and science policy, whatever....?  

 

 

Sorry Alf, had to add that one in.

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

If we're going to concentrate on mud-slinging about politics in the 1980s/90s, why won't you admit that your party supported Apartheid, the murderous dictator Pinochet (blamed for more deaths than the IRA) and approved sales of WMDs to Saddam Hussein? You see, any old cynic can indulge in partisan smear stories about the past.

 

Alternatively, how about concentrating on the politics of the present: Brexit, the economy, public services, the deficit, leadership, social care, immigration, defence, pensions, whatever....?  

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/11403728/Margaret-Thatchers-secret-campaign-to-end-apartheid.html

 

 

Quote

Alternatively, how about concentrating on the politics of the present: Brexit, the economy, public services, the deficit, leadership, social care, immigration, defence, pensions, whatever

I'm not the party spokesman, it's not up to me to try and convince you.

[Guest]

 

 

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Webbo said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/11403728/Margaret-Thatchers-secret-campaign-to-end-apartheid.html

Interesting debate in the comment section of that article. Also reveals a couple of inaccuracies within the article itself.

 

Edit: that last comment, apparently the apartheid regime was a "benign dictatorship".

[Izzy]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

 

Tesco value cornflakes cost 39p and provide 16 servings (bowls)

 

Therefore 6.8p buys you just under 3 servings (bowls) which is more than enough to give your kid a great start to the day 

[matty98]

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Tesco value cornflakes cost 39p and provide 16 servings (bowls)

 

Therefore 6.8p buys you just under 3 servings (bowls) which is more than enough to give your kid a great start to the day 

what about the milk?

[Benji]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Top 5% can afford everything - it's 5% on earning over £80k. You need some perspective. The point of taxing the better off more is that there is inherent unfairness in earnings. The rich don't work harder, they're just much luckier. Only a small % can get jobs at that level and it isn't based entirely on ability is it? It's right place, right time, ability yes but also who you know etc. 

 

What a load of balls - I'm not sure you could sound any more bitter if you tried.  People earning that kind of wage are generally working and living in London.  The average house price in my zone 2 borough in London is £650,000.  Would you like to tell me how much and for how long someone needs to save to get on that average price property ladder if earning £80,000, whilst paying about £700-1,000 a month in rent (or a lot more if a single person) for what is generally a bang average flat and paying approx. £30k of it to tax, NI and student loan?

 

Unfortunately you've fallen for the propaganda that this top 5% are all City dickheads spending every day pissing champagne around the streets because daddy has paid for them to get a nice job.  There are about as many of those types of people around (and I admit there are some, I see them every day) as there are so-called benefit scroungers at the other end of the scale whose numbers are equally exaggerated.  I came through State school, got no leg up with my schooling or career, know no one who went to uni or works in my industry and work between 12-15 hours most days, constantly cancelling weekend, evening and holiday plans.  You're living on a different planet if you think that's a matter of luck over hard work.

 

The problem is people fantasise over the super rich, the people living abroad and paying effective rates of tax of about 1% but use that to justify picking some arbitrary sum out from the sky to take more from payroll workers.  There's a reason for that, and that's because if it goes through payroll it's easy pickings, but if they take on the super rich with our current tax system they'll lose.  If any political party was true to their word they would devote a huge chunk of HMRC's time and resource to tighten the loopholes and tax advantages existing in our tax system and which are benefitted by the very few, who are happier to spend millions of pounds each year in professional advisers' fees than to pay what is morally due.  Within the 5% of society earning above £80k there is another 1% of people who are so wealthy, and yet contribute so little, that by taking just a small chunk every year from them you could deal with all social issues currently being faced by our schools, the NHS and social care.

 

And before you respond with a predictably boring tiny violin, I am very aware that £80k is a shed load more than the average UK salary (including the average London salary) and that there are people working longer than 15 hours a day for less than a third of that salary, but I'm also not so closed minded to think that taxing, taxing and taxing those who put thousands back in to the Treasury each year, because why not they're just lucky ain't they and eat caviar for dinner every night, is anything but counterproductive when there is a pool of genuine rich doing everything in their power to avoid paying into our society.

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Tesco value cornflakes cost 39p and provide 16 servings (bowls)

 

Therefore 6.8p buys you just under 3 servings (bowls) which is more than enough to give your kid a great start to the day 

No milk?

[Izzy]

Just now, matty98 said:

what about the milk?

Well I'm figuring 3 bowls is probably too much for your average primary school kid to manage, so lets cap it at 2 bowls plus the milk I reckon 

[Jon the Hat]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

No milk?

I thinking most kids would prefer one serving and some milk to just under 3 servings dry.  Although actually my son eats quite of dry cereal.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Benji said:

 

What a load of balls - I'm not sure you could sound any more bitter if you tried.  People earning that kind of wage are generally working and living in London.  The average house price in my zone 2 borough in London is £650,000.  Would you like to tell me how much and for how long someone needs to save to get on that average price property ladder if earning £80,000, whilst paying about £700-1,000 a month in rent (or a lot more if a single person) for what is generally a bang average flat and paying approx. £30k of it to tax, NI and student loan?

 

Unfortunately you've fallen for the propaganda that this top 5% are all City dickheads spending every day pissing champagne around the streets because daddy has paid for them to get a nice job.  There are about as many of those types of people around (and I admit there are some, I see them every day) as there are so-called benefit scroungers at the other end of the scale whose numbers are equally exaggerated.  I came through State school, got no leg up with my schooling or career, know no one who went to uni or works in my industry and work between 12-15 hours most days, constantly cancelling weekend, evening and holiday plans.  You're living on a different planet if you think that's a matter of luck over hard work.

 

The problem is people fantasise over the super rich, the people living abroad and paying effective rates of tax of about 1% but use that to justify picking some arbitrary sum out from the sky to take more from payroll workers.  There's a reason for that, and that's because if it goes through payroll it's easy pickings, but if they take on the super rich with our current tax system they'll lose.  If any political party was true to their word they would devote a huge chunk of HMRC's time and resource to tighten the loopholes and tax advantages existing in our tax system and which are benefitted by the very few, who are happier to spend millions of pounds each year in professional advisers' fees than to pay what is morally due.  Within the 5% of society earning above £80k there is another 1% of people who are so wealthy, and yet contribute so little, that by taking just a small chunk every year from them you could deal with all social issues currently being faced by our schools, the NHS and social care.

 

And before you respond with a predictably boring tiny violin, I am very aware that £80k is a shed load more than the average UK salary (including the average London salary) and that there are people working longer than 15 hours a day for less than a third of that salary, but I'm also not so closed minded to think that taxing, taxing and taxing those who put thousands back in to the Treasury each year, because why not they're just lucky ain't they and eat caviar for dinner every night, is anything but counterproductive when there is a pool of genuine rich doing everything in their power to avoid paying into our society.

 

You need to read my follow up too. I don't mean its all luck but there are millions who work extremely hard and are very good at what they do. There are only a few thousand really well payed jobs though so the luck comes in to who gets them and who doesn't. It isn't about caviar on toast, its about trying to balance sociaty - that's what tax is really about. 

If somebody is earning £80k and trying to save as you say then the 5% wouldn't apply to them as it only OVER £80k that it applies. 

Where I do agree is that house prices are bloody ridiculous. London itself is ridiculous. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Well I'm figuring 3 bowls is probably too much for your average primary school kid to manage, so lets cap it at 2 bowls plus the milk I reckon 

 

Just now, Jon the Hat said:

I thinking most kids would prefer one serving and some milk to just under 3 servings dry.  Although actually my son eats quite of dry cereal.

So you think replacing a proper school dinner with your 6.8p breakfast is a good thing then?

[Jon the Hat]

I do however think that they should not cancel free school lunches, and should put more money into schools, as long as it isn't all thrown at pay rises for unionised teachers.

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

 

So you think replacing a proper school dinner with your 6.8p breakfast is a good thing then?

No but you asked a stupid question so you get a stupid answer

[Realist Guy In The Room]

If I got up even earlier than usual

to battle with my 5 year old to get her to school even earlier for breakfast and they gave her a bowl of value cornflakes, I would be veeeerrrrrryyyy hacked off.

[Jon the Hat]

Like I said before, there is a lot of crap in the Tory manifesto which i dont like.  If there was a credible centrist alternative government I would probably vote for it, but these isn't.

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, Realist Guy In The Room said:

If I got up even earlier than usual

to battle with my 5 year old to get her to school even earlier for breakfast and they gave her a bowl of value cornflakes, I would be veeeerrrrrryyyy hacked off.

Note sure mine eat unbranded foodstuffs.  Except Waitrose obviously.

[matty98]

school breakfasts is a bad idea anyway, who wants to eat anything after you've brushed your teeth in the morning.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Note sure mine eat unbranded foodstuffs.  Except Waitrose obviously.

lmao

[ramboacdc]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

I have no idea how Yougov have came to the conclusion they did but I think it could end up looking ridiculous come next Thursday, Corbyn was in Reading for some bizarre reason today.

 

The last few polls from Britain Elects have seen good numbers for the Tories.

 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 48% (+1)
LAB: 33% (-)
LDEM: 7% (-)
UKIP: 4% (-1)
GRN: 2% (-1)

(via Panelbase / 19 - 23 May)

 

Westminster voting intention

CON: 45% (-1)
LAB: 33% (+1)
LDEM: 8% (-)
UKIP: 5% (-)
GRN: 3% (+1)

(via ICM Research / 26 - 29 May)
Changes with 26 May.

 

British Jewish general election voting intention:

CON: 77%
LAB: 13%
LDEM: 7%

(via Survation / last week)
 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 43% (-)
LAB: 37% (+3)
LDEM: 8% (-)
UKIP: 4% (-)

(via Survation / 26 - 27 May)

 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 46% (-1)
LAB: 32% (-1)
LDEM: 8% (-1)
UKIP: 5% (+1)
GRN: 2% (-)

(via ICM Research / 24 - 26 May)

 

 

 

the yougov poll was a new experimental poll where it tries to base off constituencies and not % as it is a first past the post election. its a new one they are trying out since they all got it wrong in 2015 and in 2016.  percentages look nice however it really depends where that percentage swing is doest it? more people could vote labour but if its a dead cert tory seat then its a wasted percentage.

 

electorial calculus wrote a small article about it better than me explaining it:

 

http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

 

[Alf Bentley]

13 minutes ago, Webbo said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/11403728/Margaret-Thatchers-secret-campaign-to-end-apartheid.html

 

I'm not the party spokesman, it's not up to me to try and convince you.

 

I didn't ask you to try to convince me. I asked you to stop mud-slinging about the 1980s/90s - particularly about a subject that's already been discussed to exhaustion.

This thread is about the 2017 election, not the 1983 or 1987 election.

 

Still, play it your way if you like....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-apologises-for-thatcher-apartheid-policies-413569.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran–Iraq_war#Chemical_warfare

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet#Suppression_of_opposition

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html

 

 

[Webbo]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

I didn't ask you to try to convince me. I asked you to stop mud-slinging about the 1980s/90s - particularly about a subject that's already been discussed to exhaustion.

This thread is about the 2017 election, not the 1983 or 1987 election.

 

Still, play it your way if you like....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-apologises-for-thatcher-apartheid-policies-413569.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran–Iraq_war#Chemical_warfare

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet#Suppression_of_opposition

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html

 

 

Well if you prefer Cameron's word to Mandela's that's your choice.

 

There's ample evidence that Corbyn supported the IRA, I'm not going to stop saying it just because you don't want to listen.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Well if you prefer Cameron's word to Mandela's that's your choice.

 

There's ample evidence that Corbyn supported the IRA, I'm not going to stop saying it just because you don't want to listen.

 

As there is ample evidence that the Thatcher government (as well as Thatcher herself) supported Pinochet and Saddam, as well as at least some tacit support for the apartheid SA regime.

 

At this point I'm thinking this one is going round and round and pretty much played out, yes?