Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

So all I've seen about this is that at a fringe event somebody said some anti-semetic. At the same time - and already planned - labour are tightening their rules around anti-semetism. 

 

So what was said, by whom, where was it, who was there and what was reaction of both the event audience and event organisers? How is it linked to labour (i assume it was either members or supporters at the event but what are the facts about this)?

 

I need to know this information to know what to make of it all.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

So all I've seen about this is that at a fringe event somebody said some anti-semetic. At the same time - and already planned - labour are tightening their rules around anti-semetism. 

 

So what was said, by whom, where was it, who was there and what was reaction of both the event audience and event organisers? How is it linked to labour (i assume it was either members or supporters at the event but what are the facts about this)?

 

I need to know this information to know what to make of it all.

 Oh okay so i know a bit more. The speaker was an Israeli American. 

 

Speaking at an event on free speech and Israel, Peled is reported to have said: “This is about free speech, the freedom to criticise and to discuss every issue, whether it’s the Holocaust: yes or no, Palestine, the liberation, the whole spectrum. There should be no limits on the discussion.”

The Daily Mail quoted him saying: “It’s about the limits of tolerance: we don’t invite the Nazis and give them an hour to explain why they are right; we do not invite apartheid South Africa racists to explain why apartheid was good for the blacks; and in the same way we do not invite Zionists – it’s a very similar kind of thing.”

 

So actuslly he was just speakimg about free speech and where the limit should lie. The same conversation we had here about 3 weeks ago. 

 

Does anybody know if he said anything else?

[Guest]

Actually this covers everything grom what he said, to labour's response, to his response to the media clarifying that he is notva labour member and that he was discussing freedom of speech not denying the holocaust.

 

Seems to me to not even be a molehill let alone a mountain. 

 

Edited 26 September 2017 by Guest

[Guest MattP]

Not surprised she's gone.

 

 

[Filberts lovechild]

Have to say I'm s**t scared about what might happen if Labour get in. They seem to be riding a wave by promising the earth when in reality they'd devastate the economy at possibly the worst time in our history.

 

They say they are the party of the 'working class', I work in Utlilities & earn a modest salary, what I can save I put into a work share scheme, I'm part of the pension scheme. The reality of what Lab propose puts me out of a job, they'd leave me peanuts for my savings & my pension wiped out. 

 

The reality with such far left socialist ideals is that in the long term it does create better equality, but that equality means its BAD for everyone involved.

 

I seriously want to emigrate before the next election. Tories are crap too, if they'd just get their acts together & start investing properly they'd be no need for this sensationalist ideology on the left & idiot pigs on the far right.

 

ffs depressing

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Filberts lovechild said:

Have to say I'm s**t scared about what might happen if Labour get in. They seem to be riding a wave by promising the earth when in reality they'd devastate the economy at possibly the worst time in our history.

 

They say they are the party of the 'working class', I work in Utlilities & earn a modest salary, what I can save I put into a work share scheme, I'm part of the pension scheme. The reality of what Lab propose puts me out of a job, they'd leave me peanuts for my savings & my pension wiped out. 

 

The reality with such far left socialist ideals is that in the long term it does create better equality, but that equality means its BAD for everyone involved.

 

I seriously want to emigrate before the next election. Tories are crap too, if they'd just get their acts together & start investing properly they'd be no need for this sensationalist ideology on the left & idiot pigs on the far right.

 

ffs depressing

Labour do need to explain how they'll pay for their ideas. And they really need the ifs to come on board with their calculations. If they can find a way of making the sums work then the policies themselves are great. 

[Filberts lovechild]

30 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Labour do need to explain how they'll pay for their ideas. And they really need the ifs to come on board with their calculations. If they can find a way of making the sums work then the policies themselves are great. 

The whole flaw will be in the assumptions. They will assume you will get X extra income from taxing the super rich or whatever and it simply won't be true. No one will get held to account; it needs to made to look the ridiculous spectacle that it is.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Filberts lovechild said:

The whole flaw will be in the assumptions. They will assume you will get X extra income from taxing the super rich or whatever and it simply won't be true. No one will get held to account; it needs to made to look the ridiculous spectacle that it is.

The reality is none of us have lived through a truly socialist government. The late 70s are held up as a failure of socialism but labour actually spent the second half of their time in office trying to rein in public sector pay - that's what led to the winter of discontent strikes. Actually both parties failed in the 70s. Much of the damage was actuary done before labour got into office but its true they failed to turn it around. 

 

Thatcher in 79 onwards set us on a new path. There's no doubt the new path cleared uo the mess that was the 70s but that doesn't mean it was the true answer. The reality is that we saw 30 years of growth but it came at a cost through tory initiatives to destroy state institutions.  The whole north of england is an industrial wasteland compared to what it was.

 

New labour got close to making the profits of nei liberalism reach the people but some bad ideas - iraq, east european migration and pfi among them - prior to the financial crisis put paid to them.

 

Since 2010 our public services have once again been ripped apart for ideological reasons.

 

What Labour now offer is what we need. But you are right about where the risk lies. I'm clearly backing them but, when I'm not baiting tories for kicks - i do recognise there needs to be caution.

 

Personally i want them to be bold, to try to fundamentally change political discussion in this country and to revive the idea of strong public services being worth the money and being worth higher taxes. Their last manifesto was brilliant. I'd prefer them to stick there and focus on making the numbers work than keep pushing on with ideas before they are able to convince the country that it can be funded. There seems to be a clear liking for the theory of their policies - just need to concentrate on the science behind them now.

Edited 26 September 2017 by Guest

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The reality is none of us have lived through a truly socialist government. The late 70s are held up as a failure of socialism but labour actually spent the second half of their time in office trying to rein in public sector pay - that's what led to the winter of discontent strikes.

Do you want to have a guess as to why they ended up trying to reign in pay? It's because they had ran out of other people's money as socialism always does. That was after the embarrassment of the "cap in hand" begging as well.

 

I'm quite staggered what happened with McDonnell, I've never seen a shadow chancellor before actually planning for his policy ending in a total **** up - it's good deep down he realises this but very strange to watch.

 

They know this is going to be a disaster but they are still going to pursue it anyway. 

[Izzy]

Genuine question @toddybad Is politics just a hobby for you or are you actively involved in the Labour Party? Just curious!

[Guest MattP]

39 minutes ago, Filberts lovechild said:

The whole flaw will be in the assumptions. They will assume you will get X extra income from taxing the super rich or whatever and it simply won't be true. No one will get held to account; it needs to made to look the ridiculous spectacle that it is.

The next manifesto will be hilarious, they already need about three times the spending of the last one. They just whack higher taxes on the rich again that will never be collected. Fully costed then.

 

Expect some sort of wealth tax as well, totally tried and failed in France, even in socialist Sweden - that will be right up their street. Doesn't work, complete failure - get it in Jeremy's hands to wave about to his followers.

[Guest MattP]

Ken is at it again.

 

Are they ever going to get around to his disciplinary hearing?

[Guest Dirkster the Fox]

1 hour ago, Filberts lovechild said:

Have to say I'm s**t scared about what might happen if Labour get in. They seem to be riding a wave by promising the earth when in reality they'd devastate the economy at possibly the worst time in our history.

 

They say they are the party of the 'working class', I work in Utlilities & earn a modest salary, what I can save I put into a work share scheme, I'm part of the pension scheme. The reality of what Lab propose puts me out of a job, they'd leave me peanuts for my savings & my pension wiped out. 

 

The reality with such far left socialist ideals is that in the long term it does create better equality, but that equality means its BAD for everyone involved.

 

I seriously want to emigrate before the next election. Tories are crap too, if they'd just get their acts together & start investing properly they'd be no need for this sensationalist ideology on the left & idiot pigs on the far right.

 

ffs depressing

A large % of those under 30 or working in the Public Sector (both the main groups with Labour voting intentions) need to take a serious long hard think about what actually might happen to our country should Labour (under Corbyn) actually get in.

 

A have so many reasons to be shitting myself at the prospect of them in power. However, just another added today. How can a political party in opposition, openly discuss their strategy to deal with a "run on the pound".  They openly admit, yes get this, business / wealth will depart in its/their droves and yet somehow, in true tribal fashion people still want this? 

 

A lot of die hard's on this forum need to have a good think tonight and tomorrow, what that will do for their futures....... particularly those in their 30's or younger.

 

Knock my point back if you wish, but this is serious stuff.

 

[Realist Guy In The Room]

6 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

A large % of those under 30 or working in the Public Sector (both the main groups with Labour voting intentions) need to take a serious long hard think about what actually might happen to our country should Labour (under Corbyn) actually get in.

 

A have so many reasons to be shitting myself at the prospect of them in power. However, just another added today. How can a political party in opposition, openly discuss their strategy to deal with a "run on the pound".  They openly admit, yes get this, business / wealth will depart in its/their droves and yet somehow, in true tribal fashion people still want this? 

 

A lot of die hard's on this forum need to have a good think tonight and tomorrow, what that will do for their futures....... particularly those in their 30's or younger.

 

Knock my point back if you wish, but this is serious stuff.

 

Does the 'stop doing our country down' type argument we use for Brexit apply here?

[Lionator]

1 minute ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

A large % of those under 30 or working in the Public Sector (both the main groups with Labour voting intentions) need to take a serious long hard think about what actually might happen to our country should Labour (under Corbyn) actually get in.

 

A have so many reasons to be shitting myself at the prospect of them in power. However, just another added today. How can a political party in opposition, openly discuss their strategy to deal with a "run on the pound".  They openly admit, yes get this, business / wealth will depart in its/their droves and yet somehow, in true tribal fashion people still want this? 

 

A lot of die hard's on this forum need to have a good think tonight and tomorrow, what that will do for their futures....... particularly those in their 30's or younger.

 

Knock my point back if you wish, but this is serious stuff.

 

Well for us young people the Tories offer nothing, they don't care about us, they flaunt and flog us. I'm paying back a student loan with crazy amounts of interest and with no chance of ever paying it off, 9-5 graduate jobs are impossible to come by, the housing market is totally against us and that is just the start. It's serious stuff keeping the Tories in power. Personally I don't think Corbyn will ever be prime-minister however the next government will 100% be a Labour one, a little more towards the centre but still to the less radical left (ie lead by Starmer).

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, MattP said:

Do you want to have a guess as to why they ended up trying to reign in pay? It's because they had ran out of other people's money as socialism always does. That was after the embarrassment of the "cap in hand" begging as well.

 

I'm quite staggered what happened with McDonnell, I've never seen a shadow chancellor before actually planning for his policy ending in a total **** up - it's good deep down he realises this but very strange to watch.

 

They know this is going to be a disaster but they are still going to pursue it anyway. 

Look matt, were on opposite sides of the divide but on a number of occasions now I've been honest about either labour, tory, brexit or freedom if speech. It's time we got the same from you instead of this ridiculous dance of taking positions for the sake of it (on a football forum no less!) that we both do. You know as well as i do they're wargaming bad scenarios because if they got in there COULD be an immediate backlash. That is not the same thing as their policies being a disaster. Far from it. I would liken it to the aftermath of the brexit vote- which you voted for.

 

Re the 70s - it was the tories in the first half of that decade who pushed us into tge mess and who oversaw electricity rationing etc. It wasn't socialism and I'm really rather sick of the over simplificatiin which has been used for 40 years by the tories to bolster their new ideology.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Genuine question @toddybad Is politics just a hobby for you or are you actively involved in the Labour Party? Just curious!

I'm not actively involved in anything Izzy. I want to see a fairer society. I can't 100% say labour have it right but their general direction is closer than the party that consistently rips apart public services.

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I'm not actively involved in anything Izzy. I want to see a fairer society. I can't 100% say labour have it right but their general direction is closer than the party that consistently rips apart public services.

That's fair enough mate. 

 

I just wondered if you also expressed your views outside of a football forum I suppose. 

 

Although my own political views differ from yours, you do speak with passion, expertise and conviction so I thought politics might be something you're into quite seriously that's all 

[leicsmac]

22 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

A large % of those under 30 or working in the Public Sector (both the main groups with Labour voting intentions) need to take a serious long hard think about what actually might happen to our country should Labour (under Corbyn) actually get in.

 

A have so many reasons to be shitting myself at the prospect of them in power. However, just another added today. How can a political party in opposition, openly discuss their strategy to deal with a "run on the pound".  They openly admit, yes get this, business / wealth will depart in its/their droves and yet somehow, in true tribal fashion people still want this? 

 

A lot of die hard's on this forum need to have a good think tonight and tomorrow, what that will do for their futures....... particularly those in their 30's or younger.

 

Knock my point back if you wish, but this is serious stuff.

 

To be honest, in the list of things to worry about in the future, economics is pretty low on the list.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

A large % of those under 30 or working in the Public Sector (both the main groups with Labour voting intentions) need to take a serious long hard think about what actually might happen to our country should Labour (under Corbyn) actually get in.

 

A have so many reasons to be shitting myself at the prospect of them in power. However, just another added today. How can a political party in opposition, openly discuss their strategy to deal with a "run on the pound".  They openly admit, yes get this, business / wealth will depart in its/their droves and yet somehow, in true tribal fashion people still want this? 

 

A lot of die hard's on this forum need to have a good think tonight and tomorrow, what that will do for their futures....... particularly those in their 30's or younger.

 

Knock my point back if you wish, but this is serious stuff.

 

They're saying that the markets might well get flighty at the moment a socialist government get in. And they might.  A bit like the brexit vote. But they're planning for that. The markets worry about anything that doesn't involve giving ever more money to the rich.

 

One or two generations have seen their living standards increase beyond anything seen before but they've done it at the expense of their children and grandchildren. It's absolutely time for change and for the next generation to take ownership of this country. 

 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That's fair enough mate. 

 

I just wondered if you also expressed your views outside of a football forum I suppose. 

 

Although my own political views differ from yours, you do speak with passion, expertise and conviction so I thought politics might be something you're into quite seriously that's all 

Tbh i would like to get involved.

My own personal politics is actually more centre left than some of the policies currently being offered. But I'm a hell of a lot closer to those than the destruction of society under tory rule!

[Filberts lovechild]

@toddybad really interesting posts and find myself agreeing somewhat with your points, I see the problems of today but I really don't see socialism as being the answer at all. I feel the current Lab strategy is actually very well aligned with Trump in the US, both targeting 'the forgotten many' and seem to unfortunately offer a false hope (tho ok different ends of the spectrum)

 

In reflection the Blair years were pretty good bar some fundamental errors that were made on which you hit the top 3 for sure.

 

The person that wins elections in my view is usually the one that offers more hope. Unfortunately for us that prospect is very scary right now. Tories must do more, much more to resonate with the youth vote, but in a sensible way.

[Guest Dirkster the Fox]

11 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Well for us young people the Tories offer nothing, they don't care about us, they flaunt and flog us. I'm paying back a student loan with crazy amounts of interest and with no chance of ever paying it off, 9-5 graduate jobs are impossible to come by, the housing market is totally against us and that is just the start. It's serious stuff keeping the Tories in power. Personally I don't think Corbyn will ever be prime-minister however the next government will 100% be a Labour one, a little more towards the centre but still to the less radical left (ie lead by Starmer).

Dear oh dear. 

 

There is record employment at the moment.  

 

I need a new employee at my place.  Paying £31000 a year.  Not the easiest job and will be hard work at times.  Not manual work.  Service related and dealing with people / calls / logistics / planning etc. No flaunting or flogging included.

 

Loads of jobs around......we're actually struggling for half decent candidates to apply at the moment.  So many jobs out there and I should know I've been sorting the advertising.

 

 

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Tbh i would like to get involved.

My own personal politics is actually more centre left than some of the policies currently being offered. But I'm a hell of a lot closer to those than the destruction of society under tory rule!

I obviously dont don't know you, but if you'd like to get involved then I'd encourage you to do so.

 

Me and many others gave up on politicians many years ago and struggle to trust any of them on either side of the house.

 

The way you and MattP debate on this thread, I'd rather see you two going at it across the dispatch box than May and Corbyn tbh 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

Dear oh dear. 

 

There is record employment at the moment.  

 

I need a new employee at my place.  Paying £31000 a year.  Not the easiest job and will be hard work at times.  Not manual work.  Service related and dealing with people / calls / logistics / planning etc. No flaunting or flogging included.

 

Loads of jobs around......we're actually struggling for half decent candidates to apply at the moment.  So many jobs out there and I should know I've been sorting the advertising.

 

 

Up the money abit Dirkster and i might apply - what do you do?