Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

So labours brexit stance is "um... Let's not talk about it"? 

 

Outstanding. And people keep telling me the Torys can't come to an agreement. Labour can't even discuss disagreement. 

They're debating brexit today.

They justc aren't voting on it.

Don't facts just get in the way?

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Saddest thing about the conference I've read is that Laura Kuennsberg has had to hire bodyguards.

 

How have we got to that point in a country like this? 

What the f?

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, davieG said:

So here the oldies got attacked for c\using Brexit, are the 35-44 years going to get similar treatment for their support of the Nazis.

 

 

They certainly should do.

 

I would posit that the older ones in Germany are intimately familiar with Nazis and their works and recognise the AfD for what it is, and vote accordingly. I'll have to look up the voting demographics by age for the US election again to see how that was split.

 

53 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

Indeed, it got a whopping 1.9% of the vote at its peak in 2010.

 

The British have never voted for the Far-Right in numbers like we've seen in Germany and France.

 

If European leaders aren't going to wake up and smell the coffee now.  Then they never will.  Sadly it will be our grandchildren that pay the price.

I'd appreciate some clarity on what and/or who is the problem that needs to "wake up and smell the coffee" about and what might be done to solve it.

[Innovindil]

15 minutes ago, toddybad said:

They're debating brexit today.

They justc aren't voting on it.

Don't facts just get in the way?

It's been debated today. 

They just aren't talking about it beyond "um... We're.... Y'know.. Flexible? Cuz half labour wants no brexit... Half wants brexit so.... Um... We'll keep all options available! Vote for us!" 

Dems de factos my son. 

 

While the "chaotic" Torys are setting out a plan, the opposition can't even decide if it wants to be in opposition or not. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

It's been debated today. 

They just aren't talking about it beyond "um... We're.... Y'know.. Flexible? Cuz half labour wants no brexit... Half wants brexit so.... Um... We'll keep all options available! Vote for us!" 

Dems de factos my son. 

 

While the "chaotic" Torys are setting out a plan, the opposition can't even decide if it wants to be in opposition or not. 

The Labour version of Brexit is currently identicle to the Tory version.

Both want a transition period in the single market (though the tories only decided this last week) before trying to reach a deal giving us free trade. 

The tory version may told us about last week was absolutely identicle.

[Guest MattP]

24 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

What the f?

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/sep/24/bbc-political-editor-given-bodyguard-for-labour-conference

 

Quote

 

The BBC’s political editor, Laura Kuenssberg, is being protected by security guards at the Labour party conference this week following abuse she has received over her role, according to reports.

Kuenssberg, who has previously been jeered by some Labour supporters, will be accompanied by a security team inside and outside the conference zone in Brighton, the reports said.

Kuenssberg has frequently been targeted with sexist abuse online and the BBC is understood to have given her access to a bodyguard during the general election campaign. The corporation did not comment on the reports of her protection at the Labour conference, telling the Sun on Sunday that it does “not comment on security issues”.

 

 

[leicsmac]

On the topic of Germany, I See You are usually pretty good at satirical skewering but their latest one is one of their best:

 

"I see you, Angela Merkel.

I see your resolute, unwavering face, your expression forever that of a woman who’s just found a pube in her trifle. You’re the matriarch of Europe, the poster woman for stability, the authoritative figurehead in the brightly-coloured suits who stands there, taking it all in. I see your hands held out in front of you in your trademark diamond arrangement, as if you’re ready to twat any usurper with a Diamond Cutter out of nowhere should the need arise. You’re a permanent fixture, Angela Merkel, the bulwark that endures every rising tide.

And **** me if it doesn’t feel like the tide is rising.

You’ve got your fourth term, and what a steaming bowl of chodes you’re now going to have to preside over. It’s a hollow victory to squeak over the line with the spectre of nationalism looming over your shoulder and the Bundestag is now going to have to contend with the AfD. The far right continues to trend worldwide like a Ru Paul meme and now it’s back even in Germany, a country so conscious of its past that only a few years ago its mainstream resurgence would have been unthinkable.

So naturally we get the usual bollocks about ‘political earthquakes’ and ‘shaking up the system’, two phrases that seem innocuous enough but almost always point to a giant wooden horse full of racists. It shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone with the vaguest grasp of history that fascism begins to rise when mainstream politicians become complacent and there’s a convenient boogeyman to ‘other’ - there’s nothing new or revolutionary about it. When there’s a weakness to exploit the thugs will always come rushing forwards, using fear as the ladder that enables their ascent.

And you’re the perfect foil for them, Angela Merkel. A conservative with a heart, who welcomed migrants with open arms, only to see that openness exploited by terrorists. As always it’s compassion that makes you weak, an out-of-touch metropolitan elite with no clue about the common man. Even as the brittle narcissism of a bully like Trump threatens to hoof us all over the edge into full-blown war, it’s drilled into us that strength and cruelty are the only possible response to aggression.

And that’s the problem, isn’t it? The right are the only ones with the firm response, whereas the left are forever painted as trying to hug the jihadists into submission. It’s a grotesque oversimplification but it’s stunningly effective; never mind that “those chaps in Isis are a bit cunty” is a viewpoint anyone sane agrees on entirely. When it feels like we can’t get through a week without a terrorist attack somewhere, it doesn’t matter that their whole objective is to turn us on each other. All that matters is that there is a response, and in the eyes of the masses liberals rarely have a satisfactory answer to the carnage.

And with no satisfactory answer, there are always going to be a few bastards offering false solutions. It really shouldn’t be that much to ask that we perhaps don’t listen to the monsters offering a final one.

It should worry all of us, right and left alike, that the world we’re now apparently sleepwalking into is one where ideologies we would’ve fought to oppose eighty years ago are back on the rise. Our fears and concerns are being co-opted by movements offering nothing but division and hatred. We’re falling for buzzwords like ‘snowflake’ and ‘globalist’ and fighting each other like cats in a bag without realising that we’re all about to get thrown into a canal together. We’re allowing a tiny minority of scumbags the satisfaction of seeing their tactics work.

Is it really so much to ask that someone steps forward and says “your concerns may be legitimate, but perhaps the Nazis shouldn’t be your answer?”

I’d give you the horror story treatment, Angela Merkel, but the far right is back on the rise even in Germany. That feels terrifying enough in itself.

I see you, Angela Merkel. I fvcking see you."

[Carl the Llama]

2 hours ago, davieG said:

Well I seem to remember Brexit Leave voters and particularly the oldies being accused of pushing the country to the far right and being racists.

More like Brexiteers complaining about being called racist when people raised legitimate concerns about the debate emboldening our country's far right, racist element but yeah I get your point.

 

1 hour ago, MattP said:

The BNP never got anywhere near 16% of the national vote.

Fair enough I must be thinking of local figures.

[Guest MattP]

22 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'd appreciate some clarity on what and/or who is the problem that needs to "wake up and smell the coffee" about and what might be done to solve it.

Not inviting a million people into the country without any sort of referendum or parliamentary vote would have been a start, the day Merkel did that she put the far-right back in the Bundestag,

 

If the German people want their next generation to be Syrians, Ethopians and Iraqis they should have least have been able to vote on it.

[Innovindil]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The Labour version of Brexit is currently identicle to the Tory version.

Both want a transition period in the single market (though the tories only decided this last week) before trying to reach a deal giving us free trade. 

The tory version may told us about last week was absolutely identicle.

So they don't want to be an opposition. Thanks for clearing it up. Can't make heads or tails of this bleating from the Labour camp personally. Seems theirs corbyn's brexit (a tory one, good boy) and then the Labour brexit (the whiney "but muh single market") to me. 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Not inviting a million people into the country without any sort of referendum or parliamentary vote would have been a start, the day Merkel did that she put the far-right back in the Bundestag,

 

If the German people want their next generation to be Syrians, Ethopians and Iraqis they should have least have been able to vote on it.

 

Probably the most sensible thing you've ever posted.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Not inviting a million people into the country without any sort of referendum or parliamentary vote would have been a start, the day Merkel did that she put the far-right back in the Bundestag,

 

If the German people want their next generation to be Syrians, Ethopians and Iraqis they should have least have been able to vote on it.

I figured as much that what was being driven at, but I wanted to be sure.

 

As the passage I posted above said... "your concerns may be legitimate, but perhaps the Nazis shouldn't be your answer?"

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

I figured as much that what was being driven at, but I wanted to be sure.

 

As the passage I posted above said... "your concerns may be legitimate, but perhaps the Nazis shouldn't be your answer?"

They aren't, but people will always be prepared to cast a protest vote to register dissatifaction.

 

Giving you a question back, if you wanted to punish Merkel for that decision and cast your vote to send a message to the government that you don't want to see mass movement of refugees or economic migrants into the country, who should you have voted for?

[Innovindil]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I figured as much that what was being driven at, but I wanted to be sure.

 

As the passage I posted above said... "your concerns may be legitimate, but perhaps the Nazis shouldn't be your answer?"

The Nazis aren't the answer. The vote for them, much like the vote was for UKIP, is the question. It shows they want the question asked, not just avoided. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

They aren't, but people will always be prepared to cast a protest vote to register dissatifaction.

 

Giving you a question back, if you wanted to punish Merkel for that decision and cast your vote to send a message to the government that you don't want to see mass movement of refugees or economic migrants into the country, who should you have voted for?

If that protest vote involves Nazism (as the AfD ostensibly are) then they are complicit, I think.

 

From what I can tell the FDP (Free Democratic Party) or the LKR (Liberal-Conservative Party) hold the kind of views that might make them good for voting for if you were to feel that way, rather than really pushing the envelope.

 

3 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

The Nazis aren't the answer. The vote for them, much like the vote was for UKIP, is the question. It shows they want the question asked, not just avoided. 

Most certainly, and it is a debate that needs to be had.

 

However I would also posit that people willing to vote for a party that espouses Nazi values says as much about them as it does about the current political situation.

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

If that protest vote involves Nazism (as the AfD ostensibly are) then they are complicit, I think.

 

From what I can tell the FDP (Free Democratic Party) or the LKR (Liberal-Conservative Party) hold the kind of views that might make them good for voting for if you were to feel that way, rather than really pushing the envelope.

 

Most certainly, and it is a debate that needs to be had.

 

However I would also posit that people willing to vote for a party that espouses Nazi values says as much about them as it does about the current political situation.

It does indeed. I just hope that the debate is had, then that sort of party can go back to being irrelevant. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

It does indeed. I just hope that the debate is had, then that sort of party can go back to being irrelevant. 

Agreed.

 

Though personally I'd rather that sort of party remain irrelevant regardless of the current political situation (even as a "protest vote"), given the history of such ideology.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

So they don't want to be an opposition. Thanks for clearing it up. Can't make heads or tails of this bleating from the Labour camp personally. Seems theirs corbyn's brexit (a tory one, good boy) and then the Labour brexit (the whiney "but muh single market") to me. 

You seem to be looking for a problem here. 

The labour leadership's position hasn't moved for months. They're saying the same thing now they were before the election. Yes the membership is pro EU.

The tory position has actually moved far more than the labour one. Every red line they drew has been moved. There is a clear cabinet split on the issue and Europe has been a nightmare for tory stability for years. 

There are many legitimate issues you can raise about labour's policies but you don't seem to have chosen one 

[Realist Guy In The Room]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Not inviting a million people into the country without any sort of referendum or parliamentary vote would have been a start, the day Merkel did that she put the far-right back in the Bundestag,

 

If the German people want their next generation to be Syrians, Ethopians and Iraqis they should have least have been able to vote on it.

Their national team will be gash if that happens.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

Ooh HS2 down to Cornwall?

 

I'd be well happy with that.  

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

Their national team will be gash if that happens.

Least we'd stop losing to the fcukers on penalties.

[Guest MattP]

[Sharpe's Fox]

Thought that was John Simm in Doctor Who first then I realised it was my man JC

[Strokes]

15 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Thought that was John Simm in Doctor Who first then I realised it was my man JC

I wonder how happy he would be with it, given his opinion of royalty.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

I wonder how happy he would be with it, given his opinion of royalty.

I kinda assumed it was a halo tbf