Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest Foxin_mad]

10 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Germany seems to do alright without being a security council member doesn't it?

 

Seriously. This is your fallback position every time. This is no comparison between the uk and Venezuela. 

 

 

This. Grandees are worried that the party is being taken over by the crazy wing of the party. Tories are now where Labour were a year ago tbf

 

Teachers voted overwhelmingly for labour from the information i can find. Schools broke cover and told parents to vote labour. 

Why not? you give no reason why to support this stance? Corbyn and McDonnell have time and time again praised Chavez. The only difference is that we as a country do not have the natural resources that Venezuela has in terms of policy printing unlimited money, regulation, state seizures you are advocating exactly that. This is what happens when the money runs out and the services cant be funded at all.  

 

Some schools, those teachers telling parents who to vote for should be sacked. It is not their job to preach politics. If a teacher told me who to vote for or tried to politicise my child I would be livid.

Edited 28 June 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Guest MattP]

25 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

Oh and Ian Blackford is no Angus Robertson!

He certainly isn't is he? Taking out the SNP big guns Robertson and Salmond has come at the perfect time. I thought May did well today, given what has gone on it's amazing she could turn in such a confident performance, she can't fight another election but remarkably she actually seems to have come out of all this still as the PM and relatively unscathed.

 

They need to keep Corbyn right where he is now, in the commons where he often looks hapless rather than on the streets where people lap him up.

 

14 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Teachers voted overwhelmingly for labour from the information i can find. Schools broke cover and told parents to vote labour. 

Do you have the evidence of this?

 

If that is true (was alleged by the Daily Express as well the other day) then it's against the law, I urge you to report it to the Police.

 

 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I would argue that Norway is more of a Social Democracy that a Socialist state, in his speeches I do not think I have ever head Corbyn praise a Scandinavian country, They also have high VAT which for some reason Labour are against.

I figured that you might.

 

Well, regardless of nomenclature I think it is a system to be admired, if the consistent quality of life across the board surveys are any judge.

 

In any case, I'm thinking there's got to be some kind of balance somewhere, or the future could get very ugly for a variety of reasons.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

13 minutes ago, MattP said:

He certainly isn't is he? Taking out the SNP big guns Robertson and Salmond has come at the perfect time. I thought May did well today, given what has gone on it's amazing she could turn in such a confident performance, she can't fight another election but remarkably she actually seems to have come out of all this still as the PM and relatively unscathed.

 

They need to keep Corbyn right where he is now, in the commons where he often looks hapless rather than on the streets where people lap him up.

 

 

 

 

I didnt think either were particularly good to be honest.  Trying to associate the Blair government with anything whilst Corbyn is in charge makes no sense and leaves herself open to massive criticism (although I dont suppose she gives a shit anymore!).

 

You're right about Corbyn though.  His questions are always pretty good but the inept way he delivers them combined with the heckling means they're forgotten before May even opens her mouth.

 

Easy to see why they love Bercow so much.  It's basically a free reign.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I figured that you might.

 

Well, regardless of nomenclature I think it is a system to be admired, if the consistent quality of life across the board surveys are any judge.

 

In any case, I'm thinking there's got to be some kind of balance somewhere, or the future could get very ugly for a variety of reasons.

The system works great there. Until recently though they had low immigration, plentiful natural resources, high employment. Every country has circumstances that may help it be run a certain way.

 

I believe its not massively different to what we do the state does not interfere too much, unfortunately here our population is nearly 10 times that of Scandinavian countries.

 

The future could be problematic indeed.

[James.]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

They need to keep Corbyn right where he is now, in the commons where he often looks hapless rather than on the streets where people lap him up.

 

Brilliant. Keep Corbyn in the Commons because heaven forbid he might talk to real people and they might actually like him. And keep May in the Commons so she can no longer be woefully exposed at being a human. What a sorry state of affairs when we want to keep politicians away from the people who put them into power.

 

leicsmac just mentioned balance and that's the key thing for me. I don't think huge swathes of the Labour voters want the UK to be like Venezuela. And it's horribly naïve to put this swing in momentum down to middle class students / Glastonbury goers / whoever else. People from all walks of life, across the ages and classes just want something different from the Tories who have been f*king things up royally for the past few years.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

The system works great there. Until recently though they had low immigration, plentiful natural resources, high employment. Every country has circumstances that may help it be run a certain way.

 

I believe its not massively different to what we do the state does not interfere too much, unfortunately here our population is nearly 10 times that of Scandinavian countries.

 

The future could be problematic indeed.

I've heard the discussion before that it is a problem of scale - that's one of the key arguments against a single-payer healthcare system in the US, for instance.

 

I wonder...why does the bureaucracy seem (or is said to) to scale to unmanageable levels once you get past a certain number of people involved in a system? It's something that might be essential to solve long term.

[Darkon84]

Seeing as a few people have mentioned Venezuela and didn't know where else to post it....I've only just seen this. It's real rosy there

 

'Helicopter launches attack on Supreme Court'

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-40426642

Edited 28 June 2017 by Darkon84

[Realist Guy In The Room]

Did David Davis really say:-

 

'We're not going to introduce ID cards. We're going to introduce cards of identification'

 

 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

Did David Davis really say:-

 

'We're not going to introduce ID cards. We're going to introduce cards of identification'

 

 

 

Doublespeak.

 

Orwell saw it coming years ago.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, MattP said:

He certainly isn't is he? Taking out the SNP big guns Robertson and Salmond has come at the perfect time. I thought May did well today, given what has gone on it's amazing she could turn in such a confident performance, she can't fight another election but remarkably she actually seems to have come out of all this still as the PM and relatively unscathed.

 

They need to keep Corbyn right where he is now, in the commons where he often looks hapless rather than on the streets where people lap him up.

 

Do you have the evidence of this?

 

If that is true (was alleged by the Daily Express as well the other day) then it's against the law, I urge you to report it to the Police.

 

 

It was reported in the national media. Public sector bodies aren't able to tell the truth during purdah but public sector workers can. I happen to think it's a good thing that public service workers feel the need to tell the electorate the truth about what is happening. Obviously you'd rather the government didn't have a light shone upon its lies. 

[Guest]

It appears that even the government no longer agrees with foxin_mad or mattp

 

Public sector pay cap could be lifted, Downing Street hints

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/28/public-sector-pay-cap-could-be-lifted-downing-street-hints

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, James. said:

Brilliant. Keep Corbyn in the Commons because heaven forbid he might talk to real people and they might actually like him. And keep May in the Commons so she can no longer be woefully exposed at being a human. What a sorry state of affairs when we want to keep politicians away from the people who put them into power.

 

leicsmac just mentioned balance and that's the key thing for me. I don't think huge swathes of the Labour voters want the UK to be like Venezuela. And it's horribly naïve to put this swing in momentum down to middle class students / Glastonbury goers / whoever else. People from all walks of life, across the ages and classes just want something different from the Tories who have been f*king things up royally for the past few years.

It isn't the Tories job to make life comfortable for Corbyn, the day-to-day running of parliament is actually what his job would be if he was the Prime Minister, that's actually what we should judge him on more than him speaking to the people, you can't create jobs or raise money for the NHS speaking to a crowd at a musical festival, as lovely as it is to watch.

 

I don't think huge swathes of Labour voters want that either - we can't downplay the class impact on this though, John Curtice has already produced his report and we know that the last election saw a small swing to the Conservatives among working class voters and a huge swing to Labour among middle class voters, let alone the age gap. Fact is from the evidence we have, it was the young and the middle classes that delivered the huge vote for Corbyn, you can't just ignore the evidence to try and claim it was everyone.

 

Let's not overplay just how much happened in the last election, it was a 2% swing to Labour, let's not make it sound like there was somesort of 1997 style desire to change the government, there wasn't. The Tories had just under 43% of the population voting for them.

 

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

It was reported in the national media. Public sector bodies aren't able to tell the truth during purdah but public sector workers can. I happen to think it's a good thing that public service workers feel the need to tell the electorate the truth about what is happening. Obviously you'd rather the government didn't have a light shone upon its lies. 

Weird. Every teacher I have ever spoken to has told me they always make sure they keep politics out of the profession. I agree that they should. The more I read from your posts the more I dread what you appear to want to take us into, printing endless money, massive tax rises, the state workforce enforcing which policy to work for, do you actually realise what you are proposing? You are coming across as a totally brainwashed cultist.

 

Now you sit here telling me it's it's almost their duty to tell people to vote for somebody - maybe everyone in the private sector should go out and tell everyone to vote Tory or we'll all withhold our work so the treasury get nothing, close up and you'll have no money for the NHS or schools, you'd be ok with that I presume yeah? Shine a light upon upon the fantasy Corbynomics.

 

What about my Mrs who works in the NHS and thinks Labour are more wasteful than the Tories? Should she be telling all her patients to vote Tory or should she carry on as she does, not dreaming of having the gall to try and convice people for vote for a certain party whilst on the job? Which public sector workers should tell the customers (which is what they are) who to vote for and who shouldn't?

[Guest MattP]

22 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It appears that even the government no longer agrees with foxin_mad or mattp

 

Public sector pay cap could be lifted, Downing Street hints

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/28/public-sector-pay-cap-could-be-lifted-downing-street-hints

When have I said there should be a Public Sector pay cap? Can you remind me or is this just more nonsense you are attaching my name to with no evidence?

[James.]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

It isn't the Tories job to make life comfortable for Corbyn, the day-to-day running of parliament is actually what his job would be if he was the Prime Minister, that's actually what we should judge him on more than him speaking to the people, you can't create jobs or raise money for the NHS speaking to a crowd at a musical festival, as lovely as it is to watch.

 

I don't think huge swathes of Labour voters want that either - we can't downplay the class impact on this though, John Curtice has already produced his report and we know that the last election saw a small swing to the Conservatives among working class voters and a huge swing to Labour among middle class voters, let alone the age gap. Fact is from the evidence we have, it was the young and the middle classes that delivered the huge vote for Corbyn, you can't just ignore the evidence to try and claim it was everyone.

 

Let's not overplay just how much happened in the last election, it was a 2% swing to Labour, let's not make it sound like there was somesort of 1997 style desire to change the government, there wasn't. The Tories had just under 43% of the population voting for them.

 

Not sure what PMQ's has to do with the daily running of parliament. It's a bit of theatre. For me it's refreshing to see a politician engage people in the way Corbyn did. I'm not even that big a fan in terms of his actual policies (when I do those who should I vote for surveys believe it or not I come out half Tory half Lib Dem) but for once there was a political leader who actually seemed quite normal and people responded.

 

Fair enough re evidence. In the same way you based your view on levels of immigrants working for the NHS on attending a Christmas party I had my own anecdotal evidence to hand. Regardless we can not simply write off this phenomenon as naïve youngsters or liberal elites... too many people voted for him for that to be the case. And yes 43% voted Tory but really it's the change in momentum that is the interesting thing. To go from what..  mid 20's polling to 41%? - that's a sign that a lot of people out there are 1. engaged in a way they haven't been before and 2. wanting change.

 

And importantly I imagine when Brexit starts to unravel the momentum will only continue to build.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

48 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It appears that even the government no longer agrees with foxin_mad or mattp

 

Public sector pay cap could be lifted, Downing Street hints

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/28/public-sector-pay-cap-could-be-lifted-downing-street-hints

I have never said there should be a pay cap either. What I don't want to see is people being made redundant so others can have pay rises. I would freeze pay in all management positions, increase those in front line jobs.

 

If this can be done in a sustainable way then I am all for pay increases.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, MattP said:

It isn't the Tories job to make life comfortable for Corbyn, the day-to-day running of parliament is actually what his job would be if he was the Prime Minister, that's actually what we should judge him on more than him speaking to the people, you can't create jobs or raise money for the NHS speaking to a crowd at a musical festival, as lovely as it is to watch.

 

I don't think huge swathes of Labour voters want that either - we can't downplay the class impact on this though, John Curtice has already produced his report and we know that the last election saw a small swing to the Conservatives among working class voters and a huge swing to Labour among middle class voters, let alone the age gap. Fact is from the evidence we have, it was the young and the middle classes that delivered the huge vote for Corbyn, you can't just ignore the evidence to try and claim it was everyone.

 

Let's not overplay just how much happened in the last election, it was a 2% swing to Labour, let's not make it sound like there was somesort of 1997 style desire to change the government, there wasn't. The Tories had just under 43% of the population voting for them.

 

Weird. Every teacher I have ever spoken to has told me they always make sure they keep politics out of the profession. I agree that they should. The more I read from your posts the more I dread what you appear to want to take us into, printing endless money, massive tax rises, the state workforce enforcing which policy to work for, do you actually realise what you are proposing? You are coming across as a totally brainwashed cultist.

 

Now you sit here telling me it's it's almost their duty to tell people to vote for somebody - maybe everyone in the private sector should go out and tell everyone to vote Tory or we'll all withhold our work so the treasury get nothing, close up and you'll have no money for the NHS or schools, you'd be ok with that I presume yeah? Shine a light upon upon the fantasy Corbynomics.

 

What about my Mrs who works in the NHS and thinks Labour are more wasteful than the Tories? Should she be telling all her patients to vote Tory or should she carry on as she does, not dreaming of having the gall to try and convice people for vote for a certain party whilst on the job? Which public sector workers should tell the customers (which is what they are) who to vote for and who shouldn't?

I don't think you'll find any quotes where i suggest 'printing' endless money, massive tax rises or the state enforcing policy. Given how often (including just above) you complain about misrepresentation, perhaps you should follow your own advice?

 

Public sector workers absolutely have a right to discuss politics - hence the fact you have nurses and teachers asking questions during the televised non-debates. 

 

The more I read your comments the more i realise that you don't have an answer to the popularity of labour policy beyond parroting about lack of money or changing the conversation to turn the focus to the phraseology of non-politicians on the forum. 

 

 

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, James. said:

Not sure what PMQ's has to do with the daily running of parliament. It's a bit of theatre. For me it's refreshing to see a politician engage people in the way Corbyn did. I'm not even that big a fan in terms of his actual policies (when I do those who should I vote for surveys believe it or not I come out half Tory half Lib Dem) but for once there was a political leader who actually seemed quite normal and people responded.

 

Fair enough re evidence. In the same way you based your view on levels of immigrants working for the NHS on attending a Christmas party I had my own anecdotal evidence to hand. Regardless we can not simply write off this phenomenon as naïve youngsters or liberal elites... too many people voted for him for that to be the case. And yes 43% voted Tory but really it's the change in momentum that is the interesting thing. To go from what..  mid 20's polling to 41%? - that's a sign that a lot of people out there are 1. engaged in a way they haven't been before and 2. wanting change.

 

And importantly I imagine when Brexit starts to unravel the momentum will only continue to build.

Not really comparable, we have evidence for this from across the whole nation, it's the Mail but his quotes from the speech are in it - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4623456/John-Curtice-says-Labour-no-longer-party-working-class.html

 

Quote

Labour's days as the party of the working class are ‘long over’, elections expert John Curtice said yesterday.

Professor Curtice, whose election exit poll pointing to a hung parliament stunned the main parties, said this month’s election had been decided on lines of age and Brexit allegiance rather than class.

New analysis yesterday revealed that the Tories picked up large numbers of working class voters during the campaign, while Labour’s surge relied mainly on support from the professional classes.

Speaking at an event organised by the Social Market Foundation think tank, Professor Curtice said the Tory strategy of pursuing working class voters had been successful. But he warned it had been neutered by a ‘tsunami’ of support for Labour amongst ‘social liberals’ who oppose Brexit.

He added: ‘Jeremy Corbyn was not particularly successful at chasing the traditional working class vote. But the days when Labour was a party of the working class are long since over. It is predominantly a party of social liberals.

 

You can even see it in the seats with a basic glance through the results, Tory gains in places like Middlesbrough South and Mansfield, Labour gains in Kensington and Canterbury.

The momentum could continue or it could fall away (certainly as it becomes clear to a lot of the students Labour's Brexit commitment isn't actually any different from the Conservatives and they remember Corbyn is a solid Eurosceptic) - but then again I have no idea what to predict anymore, the SNP looked unbeatable just 22 months ago and looked like they would be in power forever, if there was an election tomorrow they would probably lose their majority.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I have never said there should be a pay cap either. What I don't want to see is people being made redundant so others can have pay rises. I would freeze pay in all management positions, increase those in front line jobs.

 

If this can be done in a sustainable way then I am all for pay increases.

But for how long can you expect managers to lose real terms money year in year out? It's very easy to complain about management numbers etc but not so easy to explain in detail how, for example, the nhs could ensure it meets all its duties without them. If that can be done, fine, but then i'm sure you'd agree that the current government has failed to do this in the last 7 years. It is therefore not a reason to vote for them. If you were losing money year in year out I'd suggest you didn't be so happy to keep arguing for this government. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

16 minutes ago, toddybad said:

But for how long can you expect managers to lose real terms money year in year out? It's very easy to complain about management numbers etc but not so easy to explain in detail how, for example, the nhs could ensure it meets all its duties without them. If that can be done, fine, but then i'm sure you'd agree that the current government has failed to do this in the last 7 years. It is therefore not a reason to vote for them. If you were losing money year in year out I'd suggest you didn't be so happy to keep arguing for this government. 

This is why there needs to be a serious review of all of the Public sector by an independent body. I have worked in several public sector organisations and I have overseen massive efficiency savings, much higher productivity and better service as a result when I left. There needs to be more consistency, you have some NHS trusts spending more buying toilet rolls from a wholesaler than they cost in ASDA, there are wasted supplies (I knew of a box of latex based bandages being sent out to a latex intolerant patient, for obvious reasons this was returned but had to be incinerated (despite all the bandages still being sealed) because it had been sent to a patients home and may have been tampered with), expensive drugs (branded drugs are purchased instead of unbranded, prescriptions are made for things like paracetamol just 28p is Tesco. )

 

The trouble in most of these organisations is the middle management, often ineffectual, creating demoralising environment and policies in the organisations. When faced with the prospects of redundancies they always perhaps naturally look to protect and justify their own positions.  Yes hospitals, schools etc. need effective management as do private businesses but it you look at the structure of most public sector organisations they are drastically top heavy in comparison to their private sector counterparts. I did a case study surrounding the level of management in a major retailer and a similar number of authority run education establishments, the difference was astounding.

 

The government in my eyes has not failed because the country is still solvent, we have record numbers of people in employment and the economy is growing albeit slowly since Brexit. The system is under massive pressure because of a growing aging population. More funding is needed perhaps but it has to be sustainable funding, I would fully support a tax rises (For all) to pay for better services, what I don't support and I feel is counter productive is taxing businesses more whilst asking them to pay a higher minimum wage, I also disagree with Punitive taxes on the rich, which as France proved drives them overseas or into avoidance schemes.

Edited 28 June 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Guest MattP]

Just when I didn't think Question Time could go any lower, one of the panellists on tomorrow is from The Canary.

 

Is this the future of debate? Left wing conspiracy theory websites and right-wing stirrers like Breitbart on the flagship political show of the state broadcaster? 

 

Genuinely fear for the future.

Edited 28 June 2017 by MattP

[Realist Guy In The Room]

37 minutes ago, James. said:

And importantly I imagine when Brexit starts to unravel the momentum will only continue to build.

 

Why the assumption that will drive people to vote Labour?  Corbyn and McDon would favour a hard Brexit, their policy reflects that.  

[Realist Guy In The Room]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Just when I didn't think Question Time could go any lower, one of the panellists on tomorrow is from The Canary.

 

Is this the future of debate? Left wing conspiracy theory websites and right-wing stirrers like Breitbart on the flagship political show of the state broadcaster? 

 

Genuinely fear for the future.

QT has been on the slide for a while.

 

If I see Owen Jones or Isabel Oakeshott I just turn off.  People like that just have too clear an agenda and you just dont get any kind of balanced debate.

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

QT has been on the slide for a while.

 

If I see Owen Jones or Isabel Oakeshott I just turn off.  People like that just have too clear an agenda and you just dont get any kind of balanced debate.

It was, I remember serious big hitters on it just ten years ago, leaders of parties that weren't the Lib Dems or UKIP, now we've got The Canary, Buzzfeed, Eddie Izzard, Clarke Carlisle, it's become a joke.

 

Although least Isabel is easy on he eye, although I suppose Owen Jones is as well if the viewer likes a twink.

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, MattP said:

Just when I didn't think Question Time could go any lower, one of the panellists on tomorrow is from The Canary.

 

Is this the future of debate? Left wing conspiracy theory websites and right-wing stirrers like Breitbart on the flagship political show of the state broadcaster? 

 

Genuinely fear for the future.

Yeah. If some pasty waster from Breitbart or InfoWars had got a platform on QT I would be really annoyed, and this is little different.

Edited 28 June 2017 by leicsmac