Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Default? We have our own currency. We can always afford to pay our debts. Absolute baloney.

 

I think it's very telling how the tories on here outweigh the left wingers during daytime hours. Too many of you are of an age where the reality of employment and cuts to education no longer affect you. Just hostility towards anything designed to make the country better for its residents. Can't afford careers advisors, managers (you want the nurses doing the nhs management as well as looking after the patients?!), school dinners, social care, disability benefits or anything else that helps people. Can afford a £200billion nuclear system that won't ever be used and can find £1.5billion down the back of the sofa to buy the votes to keep TM in power. Priorities are completely wrong. 

We went begging to the IMF in the 70's, we had our own currency then, stop pushing this false narrative we can just print money to pay our debts, KingGTF has explained to you numerous times that you can't do that and backed it up with some pretty good research as well.

 

As for your point about Tories being on here because they are old, none of us actually are as far as I am aware, I think the words "self-employed" are what you are probably looking for. Although you spend a lot of time here yourself.

 

Trident will cost $167billion over 30 years, not £200million. That's worth the money just to keep you at the top table of politics and as a permamnent member of the UN security council, even without the security it gives you.

[Guest]

 

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Trident will cost $167billion over 30 years, not £200million. That's worth the money just to keep you at the top table of politics and as a permamnent member of the UN security council, even without the security it gives you.

What's the point of being at the wonderful top table of politics if we can't afford to feed or teach our kids, heal our sick or help those in most need?

 

[Guest MattP]

Just now, toddybad said:

What's the point of being at the wonderful top table of politics if we can't afford to feed or teach our kids, heal our sick or help those in most need?

Can't afford it? We spend just over £116 per billion on the NHS, only pensions and welfare costs more. We spend an absolute fortune on it.

 

What's the point of being at the wonderful top table of politics? You have a say in shaping the World, you are involved in every resolution, read some history (in fact just look at Russia and Putin now if you don't want too), if we don't play our role in shaping the World, then others will - that might not go how we want it to.

 

This whole anti-Trident stuff might play well with middle class students as Glastonbury, but many people across Europe, certainly in the Eastern bloc, Israel and in countries like South Korea etc, probably find some of the Western recalcitrance to it quite frightening. I wish we had the French attitude to it of us actually being a guardian angel with it to how way of life and those we would defend.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

What's the point of being at the wonderful top table of politics if we can't afford to feed or teach our kids, heal our sick or help those in most need?

 

Absolute tripe....

 

We are and can. This country is still one of the most educated with some of the best funded public services in the world.

 

We are and will continue to be a safe place for the majority of people.

 

We are hardly Venezuela are we?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04b0spv

 

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/British-MP-Jeremy-Corbyn-Speaks-out-for-Venezuela-20150605-0033.html

[Guest Foxin_mad]

26 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Default? We have our own currency. We can always afford to pay our debts. Absolute baloney.

 

I think it's very telling how the tories on here outweigh the left wingers during daytime hours. Too many of you are of an age where the reality of employment and cuts to education no longer affect you. Just hostility towards anything designed to make the country better for its residents. Can't afford careers advisors, managers (you want the nurses doing the nhs management as well as looking after the patients?!), school dinners, social care, disability benefits or anything else that helps people. Can afford a £200billion nuclear system that won't ever be used and can find £1.5billion down the back of the sofa to buy the votes to keep TM in power. Priorities are completely wrong. 

Ahhh yes we can print more and more and more money just like Venezuela......try telling that to the Venezuelans dying:

 

 

 

[Izzy]

59 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Default? We have our own currency. We can always afford to pay our debts. Absolute baloney.

 

I think it's very telling how the tories on here outweigh the left wingers during daytime hours. Too many of you are of an age where the reality of employment and cuts to education no longer affect you. Just hostility towards anything designed to make the country better for its residents. Can't afford careers advisors, managers (you want the nurses doing the nhs management as well as looking after the patients?!), school dinners, social care, disability benefits or anything else that helps people. Can afford a £200billion nuclear system that won't ever be used and can find £1.5billion down the back of the sofa to buy the votes to keep TM in power. Priorities are completely wrong. 

 WTF?

 

You seem to spend a lot of time on here during 'daytime hours' - shouldn't you be out there working hard and contributing to society by helping people instead?

 

FWIW my kids are primary school age so education affects me in a big way. And my poor health means I rely heavily on our amazing NHS (and I could claim disability benefit if I wanted but I choose not to)

 

Also, being self employed I pay corporation tax and would quite happily pay an extra 2% if that's what's required.

 

Please don't tar all Tories with the same brush. One can still be a Tory and still care about all of the things you mentioned above...

 

 

 

 

[Buce]

8 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

 WTF?

 

You seem to spend a lot of time on here during 'daytime hours' - shouldn't you be out there working hard and contributing to society by helping people instead?

 

FWIW my kids are primary school age so education affects me in a big way. And my poor health means I rely heavily on our amazing NHS (and I could claim disability benefit if I wanted but I choose not to)

 

Also, being self employed I pay corporation tax and would quite happily pay an extra 2% if that's what's required.

 

Please don't tar all Tories with the same brush. One can still be a Tory and still care about all of the things you mentioned above...

 

 

 

 

 

Are you a ltd company, Izzy?

 

I must admit, although I usually agree with @toddybad politically, I don't think this particular assertion stands up to scrutiny. I spend quite a bit of time on here in the daytime - not because I'm an 'oldie' (though I guess I do count as one of the more senior members), but because I'm self-employed and have successfully arranged my work/life balance that way.

[David Guiza]

2 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

Perhaps they should sack some of the middle management posts and become more efficient then? I have worked in a college and the staffing built up before 2010 was a joke, A principal, Deputy Principal, team of PAs, Assistant Principals in each department, deputy assistant principals. To think this is probably a structure seen across the country, absolute waste, basically all these people do is have meetings with other institutions about the next meeting, then hold meetings about the meeting for the next month with the other leaders.

 

Again if we can pay extra for it without debt then great. I would not actually mind a 2p rise in tax  across the board to pay for more services, but a condition for that has to be a stop to unskilled immigration. Perhaps we should put VAT up to 25% like the Scandinavian countries

I agree to an extent, however my fiancee currently works as a TA in a very successful school in Warwickshire and since she began her role there my view on them has completely changed. Previously I would be in agreement that there are too many and many seemed to be almost babysitters for some of the 'naughty' children, but, assuming that the school in question is not a one off, the work that they do is fundamental and I think if anything there should be more. 

I think the bigger problem is the wage that some headteachers are commanding, some are upwards of £90,000 p/a which, to me, is absurd. Whilst my other half is earning less than £13,000 p/a as a top 5 University graduate for her job + extra tuition tutoring of children whom are labelled 'pupil premium' and therefore can bring more money to the back-pocket of the Head and more 'success' to the school. 

 

I think to say that the left is 'ruining education' seems a little naive considering the Tories have spent more time revolutionising the fuching grading system from A,B,C to 1,2,3 than they have making any substantial change. Also, a quick bit of research into whom the vast majority of secondary education teachers are voting for would outline who the teachers are in favour of. 

Edited 28 June 2017 by David Guiza

[katieakita]

16 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

I agree to an extent, however my fiancee currently works as a TA in a very successful school in Warwickshire and since she began her role there my view on them has completely changed. Previously I would be in agreement that there are too many and many seemed to be almost babysitters for some of the 'naughty' children, but, assuming that the school in question is not a one off, the work that they do is fundamental and I think if anything there should be more. 

I think the bigger problem is the wage that some headteachers are commanding, some are upwards of £90,000 p/a which, to me, is absurd. Whilst my other half is earning less than £13,000 p/a as a top 5 University graduate for her job + extra tuition tutoring of children whom are labelled 'pupil premium' and therefore can bring more money to the back-pocket of the Head and more 'success' to the school. 

 

I think to say that the left is 'ruining education' seems a little naive considering the Tories have spent more time revolutionising the fuching grading system from A,B,C to 1,2,3 than they have making any substantial change. Also, a quick bit of research into whom the vast majority of secondary education teachers are voting for would outline who the teachers are in favour of. 

If a Head Teacher is earning 90k + per annum that must be a pretty big school

[Izzy]

14 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Are you a ltd company, Izzy?

 

I must admit, although I usually agree with @toddybad politically, I don't think this particular assertion stands up to scrutiny. I spend quite a bit of time on here in the daytime - not because I'm an 'oldie' (though I guess I do count as one of the more senior members), but because I'm self-employed and have successfully arranged my work/life balance that way.

Yes mate, I'm a Ltd company. The little work I do these days is mainly on an associate basis or with large corporates and they seem to prefer dealing with Ltd companies rather than sole traders in my line of business.

 

I'm in my mid forties so don't know if I now count as an 'oldie' or not!

 

Like you it's all about work/life balance for me. My health restrictions mean I couldn't hold down a full time job even if I wanted to. So my business model is simple - work as few hours/days as possible, and charge as much per hour/day as I can 

 

Most of my work is from home via phone, Skype or Google hangout so I'm on the Laptop most of the time (which is why I'm easily distracted and end up on FT all day )

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

Matt... early you queried why these old Tory heads were suddenly being wheeled out. Looks to me, this a group of the party trying to shape policy within, we've had others including Letwin out today doing the same thing.

 

The party figures appearing on political programmes/in print etc is more about their being a willingness to do it on that side than TV companies and what have you actively looking to book them (no one would instantly think of grabbing Chris Pattern for an interview these days, he'd be miles down a list).

 

That they don't appear obvious plants put forward by the PM's office make it all the more interesting. They seem to be more gravitated around Hammond and the arguments he's been making (who seemed a little exposed within the Parlimantary party). Could it be that Tory grandees are making a bid for the soul of the party... and if they are, it is quite remarkable the lines they are using to do this (tax rises / pay rises / funding public services).

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Yes mate, I'm a Ltd company. The little work I do these days is mainly on an associate basis or with large corporates and they seem to prefer dealing with Ltd companies rather than sole traders in my line of business.

 

I'm in my mid forties so don't know if I now count as an 'oldie' or not!

 

Like you it's all about work/life balance for me. My health restrictions mean I couldn't hold down a full time job even if I wanted to. So my business model is simple - work as few hours/days as possible, and charge as much per hour/day as I can 

 

That's the way to do it.

 

3 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

 

Most of my work is from home via phone, Skype or Google hangout so I'm on the Laptop most of the time (which is why I'm easily distracted and end up on FT all day )

 

Similar.

 

FT is definitely a distraction, though; I went out canoeing a couple of weeks ago, and every time I stopped to rest/eat I found myself logging on automatically.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Ahhh yes we can print more and more and more money just like Venezuela......try telling that to the Venezuelans dying:

 

 

 

 

Anyone can point to a squirrel... it doesn't, however, help find solutions for the clear problems facing this country.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

22 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

I agree to an extent, however my fiancee currently works as a TA in a very successful school in Warwickshire and since she began her role there my view on them has completely changed. Previously I would be in agreement that there are too many and many seemed to be almost babysitters for some of the 'naughty' children, but, assuming that the school in question is not a one off, the work that they do is fundamental and I think if anything there should be more. 

I think the bigger problem is the wage that some headteachers are commanding, some are upwards of £90,000 p/a which, to me, is absurd. Whilst my other half is earning less than £13,000 p/a as a top 5 University graduate for her job + extra tuition tutoring of children whom are labelled 'pupil premium' and therefore can bring more money to the back-pocket of the Head and more 'success' to the school. 

 

I think to say that the left is 'ruining education' seems a little naive considering the Tories have spent more time revolutionising the fuching grading system from A,B,C to 1,2,3 than they have making any substantial change. Also, a quick bit of research into whom the vast majority of secondary education teachers are voting for would outline who the teachers are in favour of. 

Teachers and TAs are very valuable and do lots of fantastic work.

 

I question the management levels in most public sector organisations. Say there are 15 high schools in a city, each high school has a senior management structure consisting of a principal, deputy, PAs etc etc. all these jobs on 50k+ I wonder whether the model of area management structures could be used more effectively, as often seen in the private sector.

 

I am not saying the left are or have ruined education, I am saying the economic plans they have will ruin it.  Having worked with a number of teachers/lecturers and remaining friends with them I often have many discussions over a beer about the left leaning.

 

I wish that it was as simple as printing a load more cash, I would love some of that but it isn't that simple, if it was everyone would do it!

[Guest Foxin_mad]

11 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Anyone can point to a squirrel... it doesn't, however, help find solutions for the clear problems facing this country.

Every country has problems. Nowhere on this earth is perfect and the world is becoming a more difficult challenging place.

 

What that does point out however is that using the economic plan of a man who hails South American Socialist revolutionaries is unlikely to help us solve any of out problems. In fact given the evidence it is likely to get a whole lot worse for a great many more people.

 

Perhaps one day everyone will be left to die and starve except the Corbynistas and members of momentum?

Edited 28 June 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

Default? We have our own currency. We can always afford to pay our debts. Absolute baloney.

 

I think it's very telling how the tories on here outweigh the left wingers during daytime hours. Too many of you are of an age where the reality of employment and cuts to education no longer affect you. Just hostility towards anything designed to make the country better for its residents. Can't afford careers advisors, managers (you want the nurses doing the nhs management as well as looking after the patients?!), school dinners, social care, disability benefits or anything else that helps people. Can afford a £200billion nuclear system that won't ever be used and can find £1.5billion down the back of the sofa to buy the votes to keep TM in power. Priorities are completely wrong. 

He said ironically at approx 11:00 am on wednesday morning.

Edited 28 June 2017 by Strokes

[Alf Bentley]

16 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Anyone can point to a squirrel... it doesn't, however, help find solutions for the clear problems facing this country.

 

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Every country has problems. Nowhere on this earth is perfect and the world is becoming a more difficult challenging place.

 

What that does point out however is that using the economic plan of a man who hails South American Socialist revolutionaries is unlikely to help us solve any of out problems. In fact given the evidence it is likely to get a whole lot worse for a great many more people.

 

Perhaps one day everyone will be left to die and starve except the Corbynistas and members of momentum?

2

Or perhaps one day total reliance on economic and social systems based on competition will be the thing that will kill us all, just as it has many times with less well advanced species in the past? I mean, if we're going in for hyperbole...

[Guest Foxin_mad]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Or perhaps one day total reliance on economic and social systems based on competition will be the thing that will kill us all, just as it has many times with less well advanced species in the past? I mean, if we're going in for hyperbole...

Maybe who knows? I'm not saying what we have is perfect, or even close to removing problems. I know which system is more likely to give the majority a semi sustainable future though.

 

The very real situation for a (oil rich) Socialist state is happening now in Venezuela, Only the Chavistas get allocations of food, money, healthcare, water, education the rest are left to literally rot. Corbyn and McDonnell have repeatedly idolised Chavez, its worrying.

 

All people thinking Socialism and printing money is the solution to every problem and that everything will be bright and merry for all, really need to read up on Venezuela. Watch the plight of its people.

Edited 28 June 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Guest MattP]

50 minutes PMQ's today, no idea how Bercow let's this happen.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

50 minutes PMQ's today, no idea how Bercow let's this happen.

Its been a bloody farce today.

 

That was yet another example of the absolute  worst aspects of the house.

 

To be honest i'm not sure why I even watch it anymore.

 

Oh and Ian Blackford is no Angus Robertson!

Edited 28 June 2017 by Realist Guy In The Room

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Maybe who knows? I'm not saying what we have is perfect, or even close to removing problems. I know which system is more likely to give the majority a semi sustainable future though.

 

The very real situation for a (oil rich) Socialist state is happening now in Venezuela, Only the Chavistas get allocations of food, money, healthcare, water, education the rest are left to literally rot. Corbyn and McDonnell have repeatedly idolised Chavez, its worrying.

 

All people thinking Socialism and printing money is the solution to every problem and that everything will be bright and merry for all, really need to read up on Venezuela. Watch the plight of its people.

Semi sustainable future right up to the point where a vital resource runs low or the world changes. Then the real competition starts. (Mind you, that would likely happen with alternative forms of government anyway so...)

 

Venezuela is proof that an oil-rich socialist state can fall apart. Norway, on the other hand, is proof that it can work. Which, exactly is the right one? Or is it that such systems are more dependent on the people within them than the nature of the system itself?

 

If the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money, the problem with capitalism is that eventually you run into problems that competition simply cannot stop.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

What's the point of being at the wonderful top table of politics? You have a say in shaping the World, you are involved in every resolution, read some history (in fact just look at Russia and Putin now if you don't want too), if we don't play our role in shaping the World, then others will - that might not go how we want it to.

Germany seems to do alright without being a security council member doesn't it?

 

2 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

Ahhh yes we can print more and more and more money just like Venezuela......try telling that to the Venezuelans dying:

 

 

 

Seriously. This is your fallback position every time. This is no comparison between the uk and Venezuela. 

 

 

36 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Matt... early you queried why these old Tory heads were suddenly being wheeled out. Looks to me, this a group of the party trying to shape policy within, we've had others including Letwin out today doing the same thing.

 

The party figures appearing on political programmes/in print etc is more about their being a willingness to do it on that side than TV companies and what have you actively looking to book them (no one would instantly think of grabbing Chris Pattern for an interview these days, he'd be miles down a list).

 

That they don't appear obvious plants put forward by the PM's office make it all the more interesting. They seem to be more gravitated around Hammond and the arguments he's been making (who seemed a little exposed within the Parlimantary party). Could it be that Tory grandees are making a bid for the soul of the party... and if they are, it is quite remarkable the lines they are using to do this (tax rises / pay rises / funding public services).

This. Grandees are worried that the party is being taken over by the crazy wing of the party. Tories are now where Labour were a year ago tbf

 

32 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Teachers and TAs are very valuable and do lots of fantastic work.

 

I question the management levels in most public sector organisations. Say there are 15 high schools in a city, each high school has a senior management structure consisting of a principal, deputy, PAs etc etc. all these jobs on 50k+ I wonder whether the model of area management structures could be used more effectively, as often seen in the private sector.

 

I am not saying the left are or have ruined education, I am saying the economic plans they have will ruin it.  Having worked with a number of teachers/lecturers and remaining friends with them I often have many discussions over a beer about the left leaning.

 

I wish that it was as simple as printing a load more cash, I would love some of that but it isn't that simple, if it was everyone would do it!

Teachers voted overwhelmingly for labour from the information i can find. Schools broke cover and told parents to vote labour. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

m

Edited 28 June 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Guest Foxin_mad]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Semi sustainable future right up to the point where a vital resource runs low or the world changes. Then the real competition starts. (Mind you, that would likely happen with alternative forms of government anyway so...)

 

Venezuela is proof that an oil-rich socialist state can fall apart. Norway, on the other hand, is proof that it can work. Which, exactly is the right one? Or is it that such systems are more dependent on the people within them than the nature of the system itself?

 

If the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money, the problem with capitalism is that eventually you run into problems that competition simply cannot stop.

I would argue that Norway is more of a Social Democracy that a Socialist state, in his speeches I do not think I have ever head Corbyn praise a Scandinavian country, They also have high VAT which for some reason Labour are against.