Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I know he's hated by many and seen as a bumbling buffoon, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him get the top job one day.

 

I appreciate he's an acquired taste and not everybody'd cup of tea, but beneath the clumsy exterior is an extremely intelligent and bright man.

 

He was definitely the main man at Oxford and very highly thought of there. 

 

I quite like him actually and would like to see him as Tory leader. Politics is far too serious and at least Boris would bring a bit of humour to proceedings... 

I actually think there's a ruthless right winger hiding beneath the costume of a bumbling fool. Boris is one of the biggest free market deregulators out of the Tory big hitters. 

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I actually think there's a ruthless right winger hiding beneath the costume of a bumbling fool. Boris is one of the biggest free market deregulators out of the Tory big hitters. 

I agree. He's been accused of all sorts in the past but always puts it down to satire or being miss-quoted. I know people don't take him seriously but he doesn't take himself too seriously and I like that trait in people.

 

He's not as daft as he's cabbage looking though, but I'm not sure he'd have the full support of the party as he's a bit of a loose cannon and probably not professional or statesmanlike to hold the top job.

 

But part of me is intrigued to see how he'd do.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

18 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I agree. He's been accused of all sorts in the past but always puts it down to satire or being miss-quoted. I know people don't take him seriously but he doesn't take himself too seriously and I like that trait in people.

 

He's not as daft as he's cabbage looking though, but I'm not sure he'd have the full support of the party as he's a bit of a loose cannon and probably not professional or statesmanlike to hold the top job.

 

But part of me is intrigued to see how he'd do.

 

Boris' difficulty could well be winning a vote of the Tory faithful, not the vote of the electorate. 

[Guest]

People may have saw Chris Patten on Peston on Sunday. He is very critical of the last 2 Tory PMs and actually at the end suggests that increasing taxes on the wealthy should be happening rather than cutting services for the poor. That, you may realise, is Labour's policy.

 

 

[Vardinio'sCat]

18 hours ago, Webbo said:

Gordon Brown eradicated boom and bust so how did it happen?

 

'Events, dear boy, events', or a (largely) externally driven crisis, depending on how you want to phrase it.

 

I think the quote was 'Tory boom and bust', and he was referring to that rather checkered history of pre-election booms/bribes and those busts, from his lofty perch as the 'iron chancellor'. Do you remember prudence (about 30 times a budget), and his golden rule (10 bonus points if you can give me a figure for that)?

 

Then it blew up in his face. Maybe he shouldn't have listened to the siren voices of de-regulation (which did contribute to 2008 domestically), but Maggie said her greatest triumph was Blair (or something like that), so maybe it wasn't that surprising.

[Vardinio'sCat]

 

9 hours ago, Webbo said:

I seem to remember wiki wasn't considered a reliable source not so long ago.

 

its been much better since they disqualified the daily mail as a reputable source! 

[Vardinio'sCat]

 

 

4 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I know he's hated by many and seen as a bumbling buffoon, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him get the top job one day.

 

I appreciate he's an acquired taste and not everybody'd cup of tea, but beneath the clumsy exterior is an extremely intelligent and bright man.

 

He was definitely the main man at Oxford and very highly thought of there. 

 

I quite like him actually and would like to see him as Tory leader. Politics is far too serious and at least Boris would bring a bit of humour to proceedings... 

 

I quite like him too, just not as a politician! 

[davieG]

British Attitudes Survey: 

• 22 minutes ago
•  
• From the BBC section UK

• Poll asked questions around public spending, national security and people's private lives

Nearly half of Britons think the government should raise taxes and increase spending, an annual poll of public opinion suggests.

At 48%, it is the highest proportion to support such measures since 2004, according to the British Social Attitudes survey.

The survey also found the public were becoming more sceptical of the EU.

And social liberalism was rising on issues such as same-sex relationships, pre-marital sex and abortion.

There was a more traditional attitude to national security, however, with more than half wanting strong powers on terror.

Roger Harding, head of public attitudes at the National Centre for Social Research, which carries out the survey, said: "People's tolerance for austerity is drying up, even if that means higher taxes.

"This leftwards tilt on tax and spend is matched by a long-running conservatism on national security and law and order. In all, people want a more active state that's firm but fairer."

Here are the key findings of the survey:

---

Taxes and benefits - Pensions 'not top priority'

• 48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut
• It is the first time since the financial crash of 2007-8 that more people want more tax and spending than want it to stay the same
• 21% say that most social security claimants do not deserve help, the lowest ever level on the survey. In 2015, 28% believed this
• For the first time in more than 30 years, pensions are not the public's top priority for extra welfare spending, the survey says, and has been overtaken by support for more spending on benefits for people who are disabled
• 61% of people think it is wrong for benefit claimants to use legal loopholes to increase their payments, compared with 48% who think it is wrong to use legal loopholes to pay less tax.
• The view that it was acceptable to use legal loopholes to pay less tax was most strongly felt among people who were better off

---

National security - 'traditionally conservative'

The survey found that Britain holds "traditionally conservative views" on national security, and the public favoured stronger state powers to tackle terrorism, even before the terror attacks in Manchester and London.

• More than half of those surveyed - 53% - would support detaining people indefinitely at the time of a suspected terrorist attack without putting them on trial. UK law restricts this to 14 days
• Seven in 10 people believed that authorities should have the right to stop and search people if a terrorist attack is suspected. Currently, a police officer can only stop and search without "reasonable grounds" if a senior police officer has authorised it in advance
• 80% think the government should have the right to keep people under video surveillance in public areas, while 50% think the government should have the right to monitor emails and information exchanged online
• There has been a decline in the proportion of people who say that it is acceptable not to obey a law, even if that law is wrong, to 24%. The highest percentage was recorded 25 years earlier in 1991, when 37% believed this
• Four in 10 back more defence spending

---

Private lives - 'the rise of social liberalism'

• 75% say sex before marriage is "not wrong at all", up from 42% when the question was first asked in 1983
• On same-sex relationships, 64% say they are "not wrong at all", up from 57% in 2013 - the year before same-sex marriage became legal in England and Wales
• 70% say an abortion should be allowed if a woman decides on her own she does not want the child or if a couple cannot afford any more children
• 77% of people feel a person with a painful incurable disease should be able to legally request that a doctor end their life

---

Brexit and immigration

The research - carried out in the months after last year's EU referendum - suggested that views on immigration had become more polarised, with the young and highly educated more likely to believe that immigration was good for the economy, while older people and non-graduates were more likely to say it was bad.

• 76% of people said the UK should leave the EU or that if it stays the EU's powers should be reduced, up from 65% in 2015
• 73% of those who were worried about immigration voted Leave, compared with 36% of those who did not say this was a concern
• 45% of those who trust the government a great deal or tend to trust it voted Leave, compared with 65% of those who distrust it greatly

---

The survey has been carried out every year since 1983, with questions repeated periodically to assess how opinions change over time.

A total of 2,942 people in England, Scotland and Wales were questioned between July and November last year by social research organisation NatCen.

[Buce]

 

Brexit: Who paid for the Leave vote?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/28/paid-leave-vote-funding-brexit-public-inquiry

 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

 

 

[Webbo]

5 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

'Events, dear boy, events', or a (largely) externally driven crisis, depending on how you want to phrase it.

 

I think the quote was 'Tory boom and bust', and he was referring to that rather checkered history of pre-election booms/bribes and those busts, from his lofty perch as the 'iron chancellor'. Do you remember prudence (about 30 times a budget), and his golden rule (10 bonus points if you can give me a figure for that)?

 

Then it blew up in his face. Maybe he shouldn't have listened to the siren voices of de-regulation (which did contribute to 2008 domestically), but Maggie said her greatest triumph was Blair (or something like that), so maybe it wasn't that surprising.

So Black Wednesday , when the ERM collapsed, was domestically driven, but Brown's massive boom and bust wasn't?

 

It doesn't matter what Mrs Thatcher said, Labour chose to do what they did, anything that happened on their watch is their responsibility.

[Guest MattP]

12 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Labour might not have to win too many rural seats if they can engineer a proper comeback in Scotland - but that's a big IF.

 

There are a lot of marginals now, plus a few English working-class seats that Labour lost (or need to hold) - again, that's no given, and something Labour will need to work on to avoid problems.

 

On your last point, I'm one of those who expects the Brexit negotiations and the economy to go very badly (I might be wrong, though I see that Mark Carney was issuing more warnings today).

That's why I think, from a party political perspective, Labour should be hoping that the Tories manage to avoid another election for at least 6-12 months.....more time for the public to get disillusioned with where they're taking the nation and to become more prepared to switch to Labour.

 

It's all very unpredictable, though. I'd have thought that things turning out very badly would make the DUP more inclined to jump ship, whereas if things go better than I'm expecting then the DUP could have every reason to prop the Tories up for the duration - and the main risk to the government then might be internal Tory party divisions over Brexit. 

 

There's also the boundary changes to consider (to be implemented in 2018, I think). That is still likely to benefit the Tories, unless there's another election very soon. 

I had actually forgotton about Scotland, they could easily win another ten seats there at the minute if public opinion turns against the SNP.

 

I think the DUP will prop up the Tories for as long as the money is flowing in, it might even be the Tories would end up breaking the deal for an election in 2019 after the completion of the Brexit negotiation.

 

11 hours ago, toddybad said:

Are the boundary changes set in stone?

 

9 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

You've encouraged me to look it up: http://boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/statement-on-the-general-election-updated-9-june-2017/

So, presumably if there was an election before September 2018, it would be on the existing boundaries.

Frustratingly I can't find the article now but I read just a week or so ago that the DUP would lose three seats on the new boundaries and SF would gain two, so surely it is in some doubt if they would vote for it?

 

8 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Boris' difficulty could well be winning a vote of the Tory faithful, not the vote of the electorate. 

Most Tory commentators think his only problem would be getting to the final two among MP's and he would walk the vote against anybody were it to go to the memebership.

 

7 hours ago, toddybad said:

People may have saw Chris Patten on Peston on Sunday. He is very critical of the last 2 Tory PMs and actually at the end suggests that increasing taxes on the wealthy should be happening rather than cutting services for the poor. That, you may realise, is Labour's policy.

Why do ITV have such an obsession with wheeling out these old Tory dinosaurs to slag off the party, barely a week seems to go by without Robert Peston getting Heseltine or Major to come on and tell us how shit they are now compared to how great they were when they were at the top of the party.

 

Patten couldn't even hold Bath in 1992, he should keep his mouth shut.

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, Buce said:

Brexit: Who paid for the Leave vote?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/28/paid-leave-vote-funding-brexit-public-inquiry

 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

Hasn't this been exposed as fake news already? Newsnight were again going at it last night and the same people wee adament what they said the first time around was the truth, even if they did use this method to target people isn't it the same sort of social media targetting Labour have used in the last election? I did have to laugh in hindsight at a page I was reading in Aaaron Banks's "Bad Boys of Brexit" book though - they got a meeting with the pro-Brexit DUP together to see what they could do with regards to the cause across the water and they just demanded 30k per month for "campaigning" - I didn't believe it at the time, now I do.

 

George Monbiot's obsession with trying to overturn Brexit is getting as bad as AC Grayling's, he's right we need an inquiry into the funding of it though? Still to this day I don't know how the Remain campaign were allowed to recieve so much money from Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley, Bank of America and Citibank.

 

The real scandal though was how much cash they got from bodies that actually received EU funding, off the top of my head they received donations from the IMF, CBI, PwC, LSE and the Institute for Fiscal Studies. - that's before we get onto the Unions as well.

 

Some of the EU money was effectively going directly into the campaign to stay in it.

[Alf Bentley]

28 minutes ago, MattP said:

I had actually forgotton about Scotland, they could easily win another ten seats there at the minute if public opinion turns against the SNP.

 

I think the DUP will prop up the Tories for as long as the money is flowing in, it might even be the Tories would end up breaking the deal for an election in 2019 after the completion of the Brexit negotiation.

 

 

Frustratingly I can't find the article now but I read just a week or so ago that the DUP would lose three seats on the new boundaries and SF would gain two, so surely it is in some doubt if they would vote for it?

 

 

I don't think Sturgeon's announcement about the independence referendum will do the SNP any favours. They seem to have just postponed the referendum until the Brexit deal is negotiated. It should be easy for Labour, Tories & Lib Dems to continue to depict the SNP as obsessed with having another referendum, thereby winning the votes of people who don't want one any time soon.

 

I'm sure the DUP will extract the maximum cash and won't want to put Corbyn in No.10. But if either the economy or the Brexit talks go badly, they won't want to lose popularity themselves by being seen as responsible alongside the Tories. There'd actually be very little risk of Corbyn ending up in Downing Street without another election, surely? On current numbers, Labour would need either the DUP or some Tories to at least abstain for them to command a majority for any "rainbow coalition".

 

That's interesting about the boundary changes in N. Ireland. Hadn't seen that. That way, Sinn Fein would have more seats than the DUP. If so, I presume several new seats must be very marginal - and new DUP seats very safe - as the DUP are still ahead on votes (292k to 239k at general election).

[Guest Foxin_mad]

12 hours ago, toddybad said:

Leicester's schools knocking about with the idea of finishing at 1pm on Fridays. This is because they can't afford the teaching staff. This is what the Tories are doing to our education system. It's simply not good enough talking about magic money trees. 

Perhaps they should sack some of the middle management posts and become more efficient then? I have worked in a college and the staffing built up before 2010 was a joke, A principal, Deputy Principal, team of PAs, Assistant Principals in each department, deputy assistant principals. To think this is probably a structure seen across the country, absolute waste, basically all these people do is have meetings with other institutions about the next meeting, then hold meetings about the meeting for the next month with the other leaders.

 

Again if we can pay extra for it without debt then great. I would not actually mind a 2p rise in tax  across the board to pay for more services, but a condition for that has to be a stop to unskilled immigration. Perhaps we should put VAT up to 25% like the Scandinavian countries

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Perhaps they should sack some of the middle management posts and become more efficient then? I have worked in a college and the staffing built up before 2010 was a joke, A principal, Deputy Principal, team of PAs, Assistant Principals in each department, deputy assistant principals. To think this is probably a structure seen across the country, absolute waste, basically all these people do is have meetings with other institutions about the next meeting, then hold meetings about the meeting for the next month with the other leaders.

 

Again if we can pay extra for it without debt then great. I would not actually mind a 2p rise in tax  across the board to pay for more services, but a condition for that has to be a stop to unskilled immigration. Perhaps we should put VAT up to 25% like the Scandinavian countries

 

Pretty sure schools will have look to minimise costs before moving to the nuclear option of cutting school time. 

Your position is absolutely disgraceful. 5th richest country in the world but you're happy to see public services devastated unless you can get something in return. 

The right wing is absolutely killing this country. 

[Guest MattP]

38 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

I don't think Sturgeon's announcement about the independence referendum will do the SNP any favours. They seem to have just postponed the referendum until the Brexit deal is negotiated. It should be easy for Labour, Tories & Lib Dems to continue to depict the SNP as obsessed with having another referendum, thereby winning the votes of people who don't want one any time soon.

 

I'm sure the DUP will extract the maximum cash and won't want to put Corbyn in No.10. But if either the economy or the Brexit talks go badly, they won't want to lose popularity themselves by being seen as responsible alongside the Tories. There'd actually be very little risk of Corbyn ending up in Downing Street without another election, surely? On current numbers, Labour would need either the DUP or some Tories to at least abstain for them to command a majority for any "rainbow coalition".

 

That's interesting about the boundary changes in N. Ireland. Hadn't seen that. That way, Sinn Fein would have more seats than the DUP. If so, I presume several new seats must be very marginal - and new DUP seats very safe - as the DUP are still ahead on votes (292k to 239k at general election).

I think the next election will be a nightmare for the SNP, everyone now knows now who to vote for tactically after the last election to remove them if they didn't before. They have 19 seats that have a majority of 2,500 or less where they could easily be removed if other parties supporters switch vote. (Labour would take most back as well if that happened)  Seats like Airdrie were incredible - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airdrie_and_Shotts_(UK_Parliament_constituency) A small SNP hold with also a huge Tory surge where only less than 1% of Tories would have to switch to Labour next time to remove the seat.

 

Good luck Stephen Gethins holding your majority of 2 next time around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_East_Fife_(UK_Parliament_constituency (Ironically the Independent Sovereign Democratic Britain party got 224 votes in this keeping the SNP in)

 

You can now add Paisley and Edinburgh East to Brighton Pavilion and Birmingham Yardley now as areas I would vote Labour in. 

 

No chance of the DUP ever propping up Corbyn, they would never be forgiven, I still find it hard to believe they would crash a Tory government if Corbyn was leader and Labour were riding high in polls, the believe that their nation would be in jeopardy were he to do so and if he did become Prime Minister I think there is a strong possibility that the UDA/UVF could even start to re-arm given they would see him as such a threat, even more so if th current front bench was there.

 

I wish I could find the article but I can't. I think it even had Nigel Dodds losing in North Belfast.(Although I suppose DUP will go up in NI after this deal)

[Guest MattP]

14 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Perhaps they should sack some of the middle management posts and become more efficient then? I have worked in a college and the staffing built up before 2010 was a joke, A principal, Deputy Principal, team of PAs, Assistant Principals in each department, deputy assistant principals. To think this is probably a structure seen across the country, absolute waste, basically all these people do is have meetings with other institutions about the next meeting, then hold meetings about the meeting for the next month with the other leaders.

 

Again if we can pay extra for it without debt then great. I would not actually mind a 2p rise in tax  across the board to pay for more services, but a condition for that has to be a stop to unskilled immigration. Perhaps we should put VAT up to 25% like the Scandinavian countries

Careers's officers should be the first out of the door, a total waste of time. The way Labour balooned the public sector to try and expand their own vote was outrageous.

3. Total UK public sector employment

Figure 1: Total UK public sector employment, March 1999 to March 2016, seasonally adjusted

Source: Office for National Statistics

Mar 2016Mar 2014Mar 2012Mar 2010Mar 2008Mar 2006Mar 2004Mar 2002Mar 2000

5.255.55.7566.256.5

Millions

Mar 2006
● Total UK public sector employment: 6.096

Source: Office for National Statistics

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/publicsectoremployment/march2016

[Guest Foxin_mad]

18 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

Pretty sure schools will have look to minimise costs before moving to the nuclear option of cutting school time. 

Your position is absolutely disgraceful. 5th richest country in the world but you're happy to see public services devastated unless you can get something in return. 

The right wing is absolutely killing this country. 

We can not keep funding public services more and keep allowing more unskilled people into the country who contribute little; something has to give at some point. Public services are not devastated and I know for a fact the management posts have protected their own jobs and cut the front line.

 

The left wing will kill this country, bankruptcy and civil unrest will be rife should comrade Corbyn a get in.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-40426642

 

I propose higher tax for all and higher VAT like the much shouted about Scandinavian countries, that should give the services a boost but we can not then overwhelm them with 2 million extra people!! Left wing logic unbelievable!

Edited 28 June 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

I think the next election will be a nightmare for the SNP, everyone now knows now who to vote for tactically after the last election to remove them if they didn't before. They have 19 seats that have a majority of 2,500 or less where they could easily be removed if other parties supporters switch vote. (Labour would take most back as well if that happened)  Seats like Airdrie were incredible - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airdrie_and_Shotts_(UK_Parliament_constituency) A small SNP hold with also a huge Tory surge where only less than 1% of Tories would have to switch to Labour next time to remove the seat.

 

Good luck Stephen Gethins holding your majority of 2 next time around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_East_Fife_(UK_Parliament_constituency (Ironically the Independent Sovereign Democratic Britain party got 224 votes in this keeping the SNP in)

 

You can now add Paisley and Edinburgh East to Brighton Pavilion and Birmingham Yardley now as areas I would vote Labour in. 

 

No chance of the DUP ever propping up Corbyn, they would never be forgiven, I still find it hard to believe they would crash a Tory government if Corbyn was leader and Labour were riding high in polls, the believe that their nation would be in jeopardy were he to do so and if he did become Prime Minister I think there is a strong possibility that the UDA/UVF could even start to re-arm given they would see him as such a threat, even more so if th current front bench was there.

 

I wish I could find the article but I can't. I think it even had Nigel Dodds losing in North Belfast.(Although I suppose DUP will go up in NI after this deal)

 

Was it one of these, Matt?

 

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/mp-warns-changes-in-westminster-seat-boundaries-will-hit-unionist-voters-35036624.html

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-37280113

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Careers's officers should be the first out of the door, a total waste of time. The way Labour balooned the public sector to try and expand their own vote was outrageous.

3. Total UK public sector employment

Figure 1: Total UK public sector employment, March 1999 to March 2016, seasonally adjusted

Source: Office for National Statistics

Mar 2016Mar 2014Mar 2012Mar 2010Mar 2008Mar 2006Mar 2004Mar 2002Mar 2000

5.255.55.7566.256.5

Millions

Mar 2006
● Total UK public sector employment: 6.096

Source: Office for National Statistics

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/publicsectoremployment/march2016

Many non jobs were created and still exist across the public sector. The problem is the middle managements and senior management teams are not ever going to have a meeting to discuss cutting themselves, until some external force comes in and removes them they will remain and strip back the front line services. I have a friend who was an IT manager for the NHS most of the front line low pay team were maid redundant, management posts were retained and they have been bitten by a cyber attack as they couldn't roll out the patches.

 

Labour will always balloon the public sector and allow mass unskilled immigration, its in their DNA and its new voters for them

[Guest]

Immigration is higher now than it was in 2010. Significantly so. Tories will always be the party of lies to make fools elect them. 

 

Has it ever occurred to you that all these public sector jobs you hate are the reason that unemployment is so low? Every penny paid comes back as government income through various personal and business taxes as each pound is spent and respent. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Its not about 1 year in 2010 is it? Even the lefts gospel has a damning article on the peoples party.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

 

3 million between 97 and 2010

 

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/355

 

It is one of the reasons unemployment is low yes, is there a need for these jobs in many cases? probably not, could the money be better spent on frontline services? Yes.

 

We have the sound financial management of the Tories to thank for the fact that many in the public sector have been able to keep their jobs with the unfortunate side effect of a pay cap, under a bankrupt Labour government there would/will be mass redundancies across all sectors. (Remember the Money has ran out?). In 2010 we were in a bad way with the possibility of a bail out and default a very real situation,

 

 

Edited 28 June 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Guest MattP]

26 minutes ago, Buce said:

Was it one of these, Matt?

 

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/mp-warns-changes-in-westminster-seat-boundaries-will-hit-unionist-voters-35036624.html

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-37280113

Cheers Buce, not sure that's the one but it's certainly the jist of what I was reading said.

 

It's surely impossible the DUP would vote for that, that said, if they benefit the SNP or Lib Dems there is still a chance it will go through.

 

9 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Immigration is higher now than it was in 2010. Significantly so. Tories will always be the party of lies to make fools elect them. 

 

Has it ever occurred to you that all these public sector jobs you hate are the reason that unemployment is so low? Every penny paid comes back as government income through various personal and business taxes as each pound is spent and respent. 

Given nearly a million public sector jobs have been shed since 2010 (see my graph) I'd imagine the answer to that is a clear no.

[Sharpe's Fox]

10 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Immigration is higher now than it was in 2010. Significantly so. Tories will always be the party of lies to make fools elect them.

Absolutely astounds me that people think that the Tories are the party to cut immigration. Maybe 50 years ago when the party actually meant something to people who valued social cohesion in their community but now the party is just a thinly veiled facade for tax avoiders and hedge fund managers to excercise their interests of a cheap tat, cheap labour and cheap credit economy. Sooner people realise immigration is controlled in the Treasury rather than the Home Office the better.

[Guest]

Default? We have our own currency. We can always afford to pay our debts. Absolute baloney.

 

I think it's very telling how the tories on here outweigh the left wingers during daytime hours. Too many of you are of an age where the reality of employment and cuts to education no longer affect you. Just hostility towards anything designed to make the country better for its residents. Can't afford careers advisors, managers (you want the nurses doing the nhs management as well as looking after the patients?!), school dinners, social care, disability benefits or anything else that helps people. Can afford a £200billion nuclear system that won't ever be used and can find £1.5billion down the back of the sofa to buy the votes to keep TM in power. Priorities are completely wrong.