Guest Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 33 minutes ago, Innovindil said: That's it my son. Welcome to the dark side. You'd be wise to not get too entrenched too early. In my early to mid twenties I had a (slightly drunken) conversation with a union shop steward. I told him I didn't agree with unions for many of the same reasons the right wingers on here would give. I voted Tory in 2010. Things change. Looking across the electorate it appears that people move right as they get older. Tbh I don't necessarily sit as far left as you might think and think I've been l relatively consistent with my overall position on most topics. What's changed are the issues I vote for to some extent. Personal experience counts for a lot too. Career wise I should probably be tory if I didn't work in the nhs. But due to debts that weren't really avoidable I've had a med/high income but low quality of life. It's allowed me to reflect on what's important. That's people.
Innovindil Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 12 minutes ago, toddybad said: You'd be wise to not get too entrenched too early. In my early to mid twenties I had a (slightly drunken) conversation with a union shop steward. I told him I didn't agree with unions for many of the same reasons the right wingers on here would give. I voted Tory in 2010. Things change. Looking across the electorate it appears that people move right as they get older. Tbh I don't necessarily sit as far left as you might think and think I've been l relatively consistent with my overall position on most topics. What's changed are the issues I vote for to some extent. Personal experience counts for a lot too. Career wise I should probably be tory if I didn't work in the nhs. But due to debts that weren't really avoidable I've had a med/high income but low quality of life. It's allowed me to reflect on what's important. That's people. .... Uwotm8? Not sure where all that rambling has come from. Besides, I am pretty far from a die hard tory. I vote tory because right now it's the best option for me. As soon as there is a viable alternative, I'll vote for them. Pretty simple stuff.
Guest Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 Just now, Innovindil said: .... Uwotm8? Not sure where all that rambling has come from. Besides, I am pretty far from a die hard tory. I vote tory because right now it's the best option for me. As soon as there is a viable alternative, I'll vote for them. Pretty simple stuff. I'm drunk mate - that's where most my rambling comes from! Out of interest, from what I can gather you're young but doing okay for yourself - why tory and also, separately, why not labour? I'm just interested.
Innovindil Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 42 minutes ago, toddybad said: I'm drunk mate - that's where most my rambling comes from! Out of interest, from what I can gather you're young but doing okay for yourself - why tory and also, separately, why not labour? I'm just interested. Well I've just turned 29, so I guess young depends on your where you're looking from. But yeah, I'm doing alright for myself. As for why tory, probably because of my boss at work. He's not one of those bosses that sits in an office not giving a shite as long as he makes money. He works just like the rest of us, and talks to us while he works, he's always said his business is doing well, and that it's in no small way because of this Tory government. And because he's one of us, and because we aren't so easily replaceable, whatever benefits he gets, we get equally. As to why not labour, it's more of a snowflake story. I grew up poor as shite, my dad had always voted Labour, believed in power of the workers and all that jazz. Doesn't do much good when you have 4 kids, a sick wife and lose your job mind. Won't go into detail, overall it's a dull story, and I don't really need my position validating or any sympathy from past experiences. But suffice to say no matter who you put in that labour seat, I won't believe they give a shit about the workers they are supposed to represent. Better to put your faith in yourself, and put yourself, or at least try to put yourself, in the strongest position you can. 1
Buce Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 11 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Just for interest Yep. It irks me that the oldies voted for a future that they won't be part of.
Guest Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Buce said: Yep. It irks me that the oldies voted for a future that they won't be part of. Same in the election. The generational divide is ridiculous. It's also an existential problem for the tories - particularly if the generation coming through haven't seen the benefits of neo-liberal capitalism as their parents did. Edited 6 January 2018 by Guest
lifted*fox Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 I can't wait for everyone who voted for Brexit to die tbh.
Webbo Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 Now, if I reply to this will I be accused of spoiling this thread?
Buce Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 14 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: I can't wait for everyone who voted for Brexit to die tbh. You'll wait a long time for that - pretty sure MattP and Strokes are only in their thirties.
lifted*fox Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 after a few more years of Tory austerity they'll be on a joint trip to a food-bank together and eat a raw sausage cooked badly by a labour-supporting charity worker and that'll be that I guess.
Guest MattP Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 2 hours ago, Rogstanley said: Just for interest This would be a great argument were it not for the obvious fact he has missed that people get older. I remember someone saying to me in 1997 the Tories were finished because only the elderly voted for them, it's a bizarre way of looking at things and some people, even intelligent ones seem to fall for it every single generation. Although on the subject, the elderly were surely the best informed to vote on this having lived through both situations rather than young people who have only ever known one thing? It does still make me chuckle though watching all these young students get behind the EU - the most Thatcherite political experiment going, they should watch a few videos of why people like Benn and Corbyn oppose it. The fact so many support it shows rampant capitalism does have a future if the leaders can somehow wrap it up under the guise of tolerance and freedom.
Guest MattP Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 14 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: after a few more years of Tory austerity they'll be on a joint trip to a food-bank together and eat a raw sausage cooked badly by a labour-supporting charity worker and that'll be that I guess. Austerity? We are still borrowing over 50 billion a year now just to get by and that's with the highest tax take of all time and public services apparantly on the floor. Wait until we actually do have austerity, you are in for a shock.
lifted*fox Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 you really didn't have to answer that post seriously dude.
Guest MattP Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 29 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: you really didn't have to answer that post seriously dude. I wanted to. I do fear for the nation when it comes to the day we have to live within our means and actual austerity hits, it isn't going to be pretty.
Guest Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, MattP said: This would be a great argument were it not for the obvious fact he has missed that people get older. I remember someone saying to me in 1997 the Tories were finished because only the elderly voted for them, it's a bizarre way of looking at things and some people, even intelligent ones seem to fall for it every single generation. Although on the subject, the elderly were surely the best informed to vote on this having lived through both situations rather than young people who have only ever known one thing? It does still make me chuckle though watching all these young students get behind the EU - the most Thatcherite political experiment going, they should watch a few videos of why people like Benn and Corbyn oppose it. The fact so many support it shows rampant capitalism does have a future if the leaders can somehow wrap it up under the guise of tolerance and freedom. We've said before how the tory/Brexit and labour/remain (in terms of supporters) votes are bizarre. Both sides voting for the opposite of what they would normally want. The world was a completely different place pre-EU so I don't think "experience" holds any sway at all. Let's face it, many of the older Brexit voters just dream of an empirial age that's been and gone. My.understanding is that the tories themselves recognise the existential nature of the problem of an aging supporter base. Yes, normally they could expect people at a certain age to have become comfortable and turn into Tories but neo-liberalism has caused its own demise, or at least it's own problems, as the growth of wealth has not reached generation x in the way it did generation y (of I've got them the right way around). This is why I've said before that the tories need a compete revamp - young mps with genuinely transformational conservative policies that can reinvigorate the economy for younger voters. If it doesn't them the system, which is seen as a tory system, is currently failing the younger generation. Imo of the tortures went with a gove, Boris or Rees-Mogg they'd be finished within a decade. They must have some younger centre right mps coming through who will grab the bull by the horns. Almost where Cameron was before getting elected, hugging hoodies and the like. If the Tories moved closer to Blair's centre ground, initiated some honest policies that really had social positives, whilst retaining a conservative, but just looser than now, economic policy, they could come back strongly. Edited 6 January 2018 by Guest
Guest Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 3 minutes ago, MattP said: I wanted to. I do fear for the nation when it comes to the day we have to live within our means and actual austerity hits, it isn't going to be pretty. Only because you believe in the falsehood that we should get rid of national debt (which would be insane). I'm all for limiting it (though we wouldn't agree on the limit) but ending it would break the economy entirely.
Guest MattP Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 5 minutes ago, toddybad said: Only because you believe in the falsehood that we should get rid of national debt (which would be insane). I'm all for limiting it (though we wouldn't agree on the limit) but ending it would break the economy entirely. Get rid of the national debt? WTF. I've never said anything as absurd as that, its impossible for a start, I've said we should look to run a surplus and reduce it. No idea why I'm getting back involved in this but one last time I'll ask you, what would your limit on the national debt be before you decide enough is enough? Can give the figure as an actual or a percentage of GDP.
Guest Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 23 minutes ago, MattP said: Get rid of the national debt? WTF. I've never said anything as absurd as that, its impossible for a start, I've said we should look to run a surplus and reduce it. No idea why I'm getting back involved in this but one last time I'll ask you, what would your limit on the national debt be before you decide enough is enough? Can give the figure as an actual or a percentage of GDP. I think half the problem is it's known as national debt. Makes people think of it as something it isn't. We absolutely should not run a surplus. That will lead to recession as we do the exact opposite of stimulating the economy. You reduce the debt by increasing GDP and the debt becomes a smaller proportion of GDP. Most economic bodies look at around 85% ish as sustainable I think. On the face of it our debt is around that level now but actually 25% isn't really debt as it is held by the bank of England. It isn't really about raising national debt per se, it's about using national debt to invest in projects that will raise GDP. There are many studies showing that the right investment leads to the cost multiplying in what you get back. Build infrastructure which will create wealth and jobs by putting companies and people across the country to work, using borrowing to fund it. GDP rises and the debt to GDP ratio falls. This has been true throughout history. It's why at our most indebted, after World war 2, we created the nhs, built the motorways, and rebuilt the country. The national debt to GDP ratio fell.
Rogstanley Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 1 hour ago, MattP said: This would be a great argument were it not for the obvious fact he has missed that people get older. I remember someone saying to me in 1997 the Tories were finished because only the elderly voted for them, it's a bizarre way of looking at things and some people, even intelligent ones seem to fall for it every single generation. Although on the subject, the elderly were surely the best informed to vote on this having lived through both situations rather than young people who have only ever known one thing? It does still make me chuckle though watching all these young students get behind the EU - the most Thatcherite political experiment going, they should watch a few videos of why people like Benn and Corbyn oppose it. The fact so many support it shows rampant capitalism does have a future if the leaders can somehow wrap it up under the guise of tolerance and freedom. If the trend of a significant number of people moving to the right as they get older continues then no the argument doesn’t hold any weight. But it I think the drivers of that trend have been twofold; firstly people getting on the housing ladder, stashing away a bit of wealth through work and wanting to protect that (economic conservatism) and secondly, people witnessing globalisation, rapid change in society and (to some extent naturally) being a bit fearful of that and wanting things to remain as they are or go back to what they were. There’s reason to believe those drivers might not remain relevant because firstly the younger generations don’t have as much wealth to want to protect and perceive the current system to be failing them, and secondly because they’ve grown up with globalisation and rapid change already a constant and seem to me a lot more open and accepting of it. I think economic conservatism still has a future, people will always want to protect what they’ve got even if it’s less than what previous generations had. But social conservatism as we know it today is on its last legs. I just can’t see any reason why any young person who is socially liberal now would make that switch. 1
Guest MattP Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 4 minutes ago, toddybad said: I think half the problem is it's known as national debt. Makes people think of it as something it isn't. We absolutely should not run a surplus. That will lead to recession as we do the exact opposite of stimulating the economy. You reduce the debt by increasing GDP and the debt becomes a smaller proportion of GDP. Most economic bodies look at around 85% ish as sustainable I think. On the face of it our debt is around that level now but actually 25% isn't really debt as it is held by the bank of England. It isn't really about raising national debt per se, it's about using national debt to invest in projects that will raise GDP. There are many studies showing that the right investment leads to the cost multiplying in what you get back. Build infrastructure which will create wealth and jobs by putting companies and people across the country to work, using borrowing to fund it. GDP rises and the debt to GDP ratio falls. This has been true throughout history. It's why at our most indebted, after World war 2, we created the nhs, built the motorways, and rebuilt the country. The national debt to GDP ratio fell. There are so many inaccuracies and untruths in this post it's going to take absolutely ages to go through them and we kick off in ten minutes. @Kopfkino has already explained numerous times why you completely wrong on the BoE yet you ignore his post and then keep repeating it a week later for some reason. I'll come back to it next week.
Guest MattP Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 (edited) And our current debt to GDP is 88% - so it's already over what you think is the acceptable limit! Edited 6 January 2018 by MattP
Guest Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 3 minutes ago, MattP said: There are so many inaccuracies and untruths in this post it's going to take absolutely ages to go through them and we kick off in ten minutes. @Kopfkino has already explained numerous times why you completely wrong on the BoE yet you ignore his post and then keep repeating it a week later for some reason. I'll come back to it next week. The boe do own around a quarter of our debt. Look it up. It's absolutely true.
Guest Posted 6 January 2018 Posted 6 January 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, MattP said: And our current debt to GDP is 88% - so it's already over what you think is the acceptable limit! So we need to increase GDP. I absolutely agree that the BOE held debt shouldn't count in official figures, but it is nevertheless included. With it in, debt is at 88%. Without, it's closer to 65%. And you've already said you agree with @Kopfkino that it isn't really debt, as do I. Edited 6 January 2018 by Guest
Recommended Posts